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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 436

post #13051 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I think people have reported mixed results from BB, some no discount but others 10%. My dealer stopped doing retail a while back but I would never call anyone out because of B&Ws pricing policies but other B&M dealers usually will deal, just don't publicize them. The 600 series likely has the smallest margin so 10% would be good, I think I got just under 14% which was very good but I also purchased more than the 685s from them (including two sets of B&W ceiling speakers). I know of some folks who got 20% on 800 series which is great. Do you have other options besides BB? You can also try another BB.

I can try WW Stereo.
http://www.wwstereo.com/

I may do that today actually.
post #13052 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I am sure the 802Ds will sound great with the XPA-1 or XPR-1s, speakers being most important and either will have adequate current for sure. I do believe amps can make a difference assuming the rest of the system is revealing enough and 802Ds are certainly in that category. So what is the upper side of the budget and what are your plans for the front end, pre and source? I think that is also very important.

Oh, and congrats on getting some amazing speakers.

as far the source, 99% of listening will be from sonos which in the past I had connected straright to rotel 1582 and CM9s. The CMs are now in my HT and the 802d2s will be in my lstenening setup. This time I plan to use a peachtree pre with its DAC or possibly wired for sound (havent decided between the two yet, any experience between those two would be helpful as well). At some point may add a CD. I dont have any SACDs or listen to them.
post #13053 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by justindo View Post

I can't imagine anyone with 802s doing this. Comparing Classe' to Emotiva is like comparing an S-Class Mercedes to a Hyundai Azera. The average person may think they're almost the same, but anyone who knows anything about them knows they aren't. Outlaw amps embarrass Emotiva, to say nothing of Classe'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I was tempted to reply a while back when you posted but I thought you were just messing (still do, actually) so I resisted. Can you tell on your front soundstage, very likely especially if you have the 600 mono's. Now this is where it is tougher, surrounds and surround backs. I realize they are 802D1s but even so, it may be difficult to pick it out (unless possibly straight 5 channel music). Why not try the XPR-2 for the surrounds, that way you are only out shipping for one piece on the return.


I am looking for a high powered monoblock or 2ch amp without premium pricing. Outlaws monoblock is only 200W. I figure at the price point of the emotiva, upgrade in 1-2yrs to classe, or mac, or krell is still an option even if the emotivas dont sell for much. Im asking opinions because if many of you experienced guys would feel that the emotivas would make the 802ds sound plain and ordinary then its not worth the excerise and I should just hold out unitl I can afford both the speakers and the classe. BTW my dealer is also presenting Anthem monbocks as option if classe is out of budget,....thoughts? Again will be using with sonos running through peachtree as the input
post #13054 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by mominayal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by justindo View Post

I can't imagine anyone with 802s doing this. Comparing Classe' to Emotiva is like comparing an S-Class Mercedes to a Hyundai Azera. The average person may think they're almost the same, but anyone who knows anything about them knows they aren't. Outlaw amps embarrass Emotiva, to say nothing of Classe'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I was tempted to reply a while back when you posted but I thought you were just messing (still do, actually) so I resisted. Can you tell on your front soundstage, very likely especially if you have the 600 mono's. Now this is where it is tougher, surrounds and surround backs. I realize they are 802D1s but even so, it may be difficult to pick it out (unless possibly straight 5 channel music). Why not try the XPR-2 for the surrounds, that way you are only out shipping for one piece on the return.
I know more


I am looking for a high powered monoblock or 2ch amp without premium pricing. Outlaws monoblock is only 200W. I figure at the price point of the emotiva, upgrade in 1-2yrs to classe, or mac, or krell is still an option even if the emotivas dont sell for much. Im asking opinions because if many of you experienced guys would feel that the emotivas would make the 802ds sound plain and ordinary then its not worth the excerise and I should just hold out unitl I can afford both the speakers and the classe. BTW my dealer is also presenting Anthem monbocks as option if classe is out of budget,....thoughts? Again will be using with sonos running through peachtree as the input

I use emotiva on my 805s and HTM4 and it is super clean all the way up to reference. I do believe the double blind ABX tests have shown that modern amplifiers operating within their limits will sound the same, so I giggle when folks make an analogy to Mercedes vs Hyundai. Tube amps sound different because their frequency response is not flat, they roll off the high end. You can EQ another amp type to sound the same and not be distinguishable in dbl blind tests. Amplifiers improve sound quality at higher levels when their less powerful counterparts would be causing distortion. They should amplify/power the signal, not color or change it and even the affordable options today including pro amps accomplish that.

But we are all entitled to our opinion and others here disagree despite the scientific evidence which shows otherwise. I made an amplifier recommendations post for wse a few pages back in this thread which you may find helpful. The biggest drawback I see to the emotiva for him is the multi channel emos are not truly balanced despite their available connections, I think just the XPR-1 and XPA-1 are fully balanced, and with his front end gear he can stay fully balanced throughout the system which is awesome. The post ended with several possibilities but I think it came down to an Outlaw, ATI, and an NAD for an attractively priced fully balance option. But his listening levels are not very high either; you may want more power.
post #13055 of 17845
If you have the means go with quality first otherwise you spend twice as much!
post #13056 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by mominayal View Post


I am looking for a high powered monoblock or 2ch amp without premium pricing. Outlaws monoblock is only 200W. I figure at the price point of the emotiva, upgrade in 1-2yrs to classe, or mac, or krell is still an option even if the emotivas dont sell for much. Im asking opinions because if many of you experienced guys would feel that the emotivas would make the 802ds sound plain and ordinary then its not worth the excerise and I should just hold out unitl I can afford both the speakers and the classe. BTW my dealer is also presenting Anthem monbocks as option if classe is out of budget,....thoughts? Again will be using with sonos running through peachtree as the input
I would suggest an ATI AT3002 for $1850 from ClassicAudioParts. Agree with wse, upgrading is expensive way to go.
post #13057 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I would suggest an ATI AT3002 for $1850 from ClassicAudioParts. Agree with wse, upgrading is expensive way to go.

intersting, 300WX2 for the ATI, vs 500W monoblocks from emotiva is favored? I'm curious why?
post #13058 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Amplifiers improve sound quality at higher levels when their less powerful counterparts would be causing distortion. They should amplify/power the signal, not color or change it and even the affordable options today including pro amps accomplish that.

Thats exactly how i have always thought about it but of coarse I have very limited experience. I've always felt the pre/pro, cables and the speakers themselves are what gave the music its character, and the amps were responsible for the effort it takes for the speaker to reproduce the sound...i.e the greater and cleaner the power, the less effort the speakers have to make and therefore a more natural and efortless sound. Now if the amp is cheap quality and doesn't provide clean linear power the speakers will have to make more of an effort (at any volume) and not produce a good listening experience.

In teerms of cost of upgrading, yes you pay more this way. But at $1600 for 2 500w monoblocks from emotiva, and selling them in 2-3 yrs for lets say 50% (if upgraditits takes hold) is not bad I think. And who knows may be able to find someone selling classe for a discount at that time as well. Also at this time it seems with Classe the only options are 300W or 600W. One seems to little and one seems to much for the 50W-500W rated 802D2s. It is the opinion of you experts that 300W from Classe or ATI will provide cleaner power than 500W from emotiva?
post #13059 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by mominayal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Amplifiers improve sound quality at higher levels when their less powerful counterparts would be causing distortion. They should amplify/power the signal, not color or change it and even the affordable options today including pro amps accomplish that.

Thats exactly how i have always thought about it but of coarse I have very limited experience. I've always felt the pre/pro, cables and the speakers themselves are what gave the music its character, and the amps were responsible for the effort it takes for the speaker to reproduce the sound...i.e the greater and cleaner the power, the less effort the speakers have to make and therefore a more natural and efortless sound. Now if the amp is cheap quality and doesn't provide clean linear power the speakers will have to make more of an effort (at any volume) and not produce a good listening experience.

In teerms of cost of upgrading, yes you pay more this way. But at $1600 for 2 500w monoblocks from emotiva, and selling them in 2-3 yrs for lets say 50% (if upgraditits takes hold) is not bad I think. And who knows may be able to find someone selling classe for a discount at that time as well. Also at this time it seems with Classe the only options are 300W or 600W. One seems to little and one seems to much for the 50W-500W rated 802D2s. It is the opinion of you experts that 300W from Classe or ATI will provide cleaner power than 500W from emotiva?

I want the character of my music to be determined by the artists selection of instruments, techniques, and style. Of course there's a lot of components and hands in the process before it reaches my ears. In my reproduction system the goal of the source (cd player, streamer, turntable, etc...), Prepro/AVR, amplifier, DACs, and cables should be complete transparency (no coloration). Speakers and rooms certainly have character though. In the recording studios I want the engineers to get the levels and sounds correct to the artists intent with as little EQ as possible, they need to have some seriously high end microphones.

I'm of the belief nobody can reliably distinguish between the classe and emotiva when level matched, played within their limits, and all bias taken out of the equation (which means double blind ABX). Is there any way you can buy the budget amp of your choice and get a dealer loan on the high priced amp to attempt to set up an ABX test to the best of your abilities so you can make your own determination? BTW are you running 2-channel and more?
post #13060 of 17845
I think the XPA-1s would be good also. Too bad Thrang has not been able to weigh in on this as he has the direct relevant experience in this case.
post #13061 of 17845
Don't want to get into an argument but my experiences tell me amps can sound different, and yes I am talking SS. Sometimes it can be immediately noticeable, usually in bass control and definition (e.g. Krell) but most of the time it is very subtle. The subtle differences are usually not noticeable in ABXs. You have to live with them for a while. I am guessing the $50,000 Mark Levinson No. 53s or the $6,000 Anthem Statement M1s monoblocks would do well in an ABX, but neither was recommended in the December issue of Stereophile.
post #13062 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I want the character of my music to be determined by the artists selection of instruments, techniques, and style. Of course there's a lot of components and hands in the process before it reaches my ears. In my reproduction system the goal of the source (cd player, streamer, turntable, etc...), Prepro/AVR, amplifier, DACs, and cables should be complete transparency (no coloration). Speakers and rooms certainly have character though. In the recording studios I want the engineers to get the levels and sounds correct to the artists intent with as little EQ as possible, they need to have some seriously high end microphones.

I'm of the belief nobody can reliably distinguish between the classe and emotiva when level matched, played within their limits, and all bias taken out of the equation (which means double blind ABX). Is there any way you can buy the budget amp of your choice and get a dealer loan on the high priced amp to attempt to set up an ABX test to the best of your abilities so you can make your own determination? BTW are you running 2-channel and more?


2 channel only for this setup
post #13063 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by mominayal View Post


2 channel only for this setup

Well the ID outlaws and emotivas do offer trial periods. I'd recommend seeing if you can get a high priced loaner and use the trial period on the ID amp and do your own comparisons. If you know which one is playing though you won't be able to remove your bias.

The ATI is a good somewhere in between amp though. Their amps get re-badged and priced jacked by the high priced names all the time. The quality is there and although more then the emo and outlaw options the prices are still decent. However I have no issue with the build quality of my emo. It's a solid amp.
Edited by dstew100 - 3/9/13 at 2:18pm
post #13064 of 17845
^^^^
+1
post #13065 of 17845
can someone objectively explain how classe or mac or parasound is better than the XPA-1? I am debating on ordering a couple of XPA-1 and shipping them directly to my dealer so that we can do classe to emotiva to parasound direct AB comparisions...
post #13066 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

can someone objectively explain how classe or mac or parasound is better than the XPA-1?
They are not.

Well some like the looks better, personally I think mac gear is the best looking audio equipment out. Sometimes their warranty is better. Mac can last a lifetime or three as well.

As I said I do not believe there is ANY sound quality improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

I am debating on ordering a couple of XPA-1 and shipping them directly to my dealer so that we can do classe to emotiva to parasound direct AB comparisions...
Careful, he has a financial interest in the outcome of those comparisons.
post #13067 of 17845
I own three XPA -1s and two XPA-5s. I have owned Krell, Denon POA series amps, Carver, Nikko, Hafler, Yamaha Amps going back some 20 years. Frankly, all of them sounded about the same. Probably disliked the Carver the most. I think, objectively, there is little difference between a Classe and the Emo XPA-1s. The big Emo amps do produce power effortlessly. They are totally silent and for my fronts 803S's and an HTM3S, I am very pleased with the sound. Objectively, I find the back RCA connects to be poorly designed and the amps are stupid heavy. I am probably going to sell the amps, not because how they sound but they are heavy and huge; not conducive to a media room. My next solution may be Class D stuff just to lighten the rack.

So... Objectively, the more expensive amps might have a better physical look than the XPA-1s and might have better connects. All the other perceived differences are mostly subjective or placebo. IMHO.
post #13068 of 17845
Are the 683 towers truly 8ohm speakers? I have been reading some mixed comments about it. Not sure how much power they require. Thanks!
post #13069 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I own three XPA -1s and two XPA-5s. I have owned Krell, Denon POA series amps, Carver, Nikko, Hafler, Yamaha Amps going back some 20 years. Frankly, all of them sounded about the same. Probably disliked the Carver the most. I think, objectively, there is little difference between a Classe and the Emo XPA-1s. The big Emo amps do produce power effortlessly. They are totally silent and for my fronts 803S's and an HTM3S, I am very pleased with the sound. Objectively, I find the back RCA connects to be poorly designed and the amps are stupid heavy. I am probably going to sell the amps, not because how they sound but they are heavy and huge; not conducive to a media room. My next solution may be Class D stuff just to lighten the rack.

So... Objectively, the more expensive amps might have a better physical look than the XPA-1s and might have better connects. All the other perceived differences are mostly subjective or placebo. IMHO.

Very interesting that you find they all sound the same! I might buy an Emotiva just to try and see so I could compare on my own with Classe
post #13070 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I own three XPA -1s and two XPA-5s. I have owned Krell, Denon POA series amps, Carver, Nikko, Hafler, Yamaha Amps going back some 20 years. Frankly, all of them sounded about the same. Probably disliked the Carver the most. I think, objectively, there is little difference between a Classe and the Emo XPA-1s. The big Emo amps do produce power effortlessly. They are totally silent and for my fronts 803S's and an HTM3S, I am very pleased with the sound. Objectively, I find the back RCA connects to be poorly designed and the amps are stupid heavy. I am probably going to sell the amps, not because how they sound but they are heavy and huge; not conducive to a media room. My next solution may be Class D stuff just to lighten the rack.

So... Objectively, the more expensive amps might have a better physical look than the XPA-1s and might have better connects. All the other perceived differences are mostly subjective or placebo. IMHO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Very interesting that you find they all sound the same! I might buy an Emotiva just to try and see so I could compare on my own with Classe

I agree with SeattleHTGuy on the amps all sounding very similar. I've heard Krell, Mark Levinson, Classe, McIntosh, Bryston, Parasound, Lexicon, ATI, etc, as well. They sound very similar.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 3/10/13 at 7:01am
post #13071 of 17845
Many on this forum, but not so much on others, claim that all amps and cables sound the same and like to talk about measurements and double blind tests. Perhaps amps do sound the same to them, but I and others hear differences, albeit not nearly as different as different speakers sound. Frankly, I think it's a soothing mechanism to justify their purchases because they couldn't afford better gear. Personally, I'd love Boulder monoblocks and know they sound better than my Classe' amp, but I can't afford them. Still, I don't tell myself that "all amps sound the same" to make myself feel better.

For example, I've heard a handful of solid state stereo amps (Levinson, Krell, Classe', Bryston, and Acurus) back to back in the same room in the same system with the same recordings and all sounded distinctly different and all the participants agreed on the sonic differences. Now some random person off the street may not have been able to hear the differences (maybe that's who they get for their double blind tests?), but critical listeners could.

If you're looking for a good amp and can't afford Classe', I'd recommend this:

http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/ati-at3002-two-channel-x-300-watt-amplifier-b-stock-120-v.html
Edited by justindo - 3/9/13 at 7:45pm
post #13072 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by justindo View Post

Many on this forum, but not so much on others, claim that all amps and cables sound the same and like to talk about measurements and double blind tests. Perhaps amps do sound the same to them, but I and others hear differences, albeit not nearly as different as different speakers sound. Frankly, I think it's a soothing mechanism to justify their purchases because they couldn't afford better gear. Personally, I'd love Boulder monoblocks and know they sound better than my Classe' amp, but I can't afford them. Still, I don't tell myself that "all amps sound the same" to make myself feel better.

For example, I've heard a handful of solid state stereo amps (Levinson, Krell, Classe', Bryston, and Acurus) back to back in the same room in the same system with the same recordings and all sounded distinctly different and all the participants agreed on the sonic differences. Now some random person off the street may not have been able to hear the differences (maybe that's who they get for their double blind tests?), but critical listeners could.

smile.gif
post #13073 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

Are the 683 towers truly 8ohm speakers? I have been reading some mixed comments about it. Not sure how much power they require. Thanks!

They are not. Impedance varies between 3.5 and 6 ohms. You need an amplifier rated for 4 ohm load to drive them safely.
post #13074 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by justindo View Post

Many on this forum, but not so much on others, claim that all amps and cables sound the same and like to talk about measurements and double blind tests. Perhaps amps do sound the same to them, but I and others hear differences, albeit not nearly as different as different speakers sound. Frankly, I think it's a soothing mechanism to justify their purchases because they couldn't afford better gear. Personally, I'd love Boulder monoblocks and know they sound better than my Classe' amp, but I can't afford them. Still, I don't tell myself that "all amps sound the same" to make myself feel better.

For example, I've heard a handful of solid state stereo amps (Levinson, Krell, Classe', Bryston, and Acurus) back to back in the same room in the same system with the same recordings and all sounded distinctly different and all the participants agreed on the sonic differences. Now some random person off the street may not have been able to hear the differences (maybe that's who they get for their double blind tests?), but critical listeners could.

If you're looking for a good amp and can't afford Classe', I'd recommend this:

http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/ati-at3002-two-channel-x-300-watt-amplifier-b-stock-120-v.html

bwahahahaha.....thanks for the good laugh.
post #13075 of 17845
I've a friend using XPA-1's to power his 803D's and it sounds great. He, and we, listened to a number of other amps high- and low-priced and the XPA-1's sounded as good or better. YMMV - Don
post #13076 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by justindo View Post

Many on this forum, but not so much on others, claim that all amps and cables sound the same and like to talk about measurements and double blind tests.

You mean on AVS - the largest & one of the most trusted audio forums in the world ?

And on Audioholics - also one of the most trusted forums in the world ?

But on small forums and less trusted forums where every cable & cord makes an inexplicable difference, people claim that all amps sound unequivocally different?

Why, I can't believe it! biggrin.gif
post #13077 of 17845
I still hope to power my 804Ds with a MC 303 one day...
post #13078 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

I still hope to power my 804Ds with a MC 303 one day...

thrang is selling his, "one day" may be closer than you think wink.gif
post #13079 of 17845
Is it worth it? Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core or Anti-Mode 8033 Automatic Subwoofer Equalizer
Edited by wse - 3/10/13 at 11:01am
post #13080 of 17845
Ah, the amplifier argument.... Well, do the people who claim that pricier amps are much better, are they many $1000s of dollars better? No one is really making a convincing argument that one amplifier sounds as good as it asks. I would imagine that if you have all this money, you would just buy better speakers, or better room treatment? Or an actual Mercedes that you are comparing them to. cool.gif

I would consider a "nice looking" pricy amp like Mac as I have always been obsessed with Analog Needles since I was a child. WIth their history for lasting a great while I can certainly find this worth it.
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