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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 442

post #13231 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Well that's good for the customer, I was looking at the Bryston SP3, called two dealers neither of them wanted to discount, so to bad for them, I could care less about the brand if dealers are unwilling to negotiate!

I'm with you all the way on this. biggrin.gif

Could not care less because it is my money. biggrin.gif
post #13232 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

My dealer doesn't really discount on B&W -- and if so it's very very small on demo floor models. They told me that B&W sent out a notice to all their dealers (including mine) saying that they learned a few stores were discounting too much and were threatening to drop some dealers because of it. So any real discount, and my dealer has the possibiity of being dropped by B&W because of the notice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

That is why it is important to not publicize who give the deals you get on B&W.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

BB salesman told me the same thing. B&W wants their stuff sold at MSRP. And they do drop dealers who discount.

Yes, to all B&W spies out there, I paid full price for my B&W 802D2. tongue.gif

If I ever become a speaker dealer, I bet I could get pretty creative on how to give my customers discounts. wink.gif
post #13233 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

BB salesman told me the same thing. B&W wants their stuff sold at MSRP. And they do drop dealers who discount.
That is a violation of FTC regulations, and could result in a fine so large that the last thing they'll be worrying about is discounters. Legally any dealer can sell anything for any price they want. The only thing B&W can legally get away with is restricting the minimum price that a seller may advertise. Anything beyond that is price fixing, which violates the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890. If B&W got away with doing this it's only because the dealers in question were unaware of the law.
post #13234 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That is a violation of FTC regulations, and could result in a fine so large that the last thing they'll be worrying about is discounters. Legally any dealer can sell anything for any price they want. The only thing B&W can legally get away with is restricting the minimum price that a seller may advertise. Anything beyond that is price fixing, which violates the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890. If B&W got away with doing this it's only because the dealers in question were unaware of the law.

Unilateral pricing set by one manufacturer to establish a minimum resale price is not illegal. Apple, Sony, Samsung and others do it. It might not be smart, but that's a different discussion...
post #13235 of 14064
I heard the same stuff too. Nothing's for sure yet but may be coming down the line.

And I agree, as others have pointed out, it's not illegal for a manufacturer to demand that their product be sold at a particular price.
post #13236 of 14064
Bill you are right and you are wrong. You are right that dealers are able to sell for whatever price that they want. You are wrong in that manufacturers have to supply the dealer. If you don't follow the manufacturers pricing policy they no longer sell you product. Many manufacturers also state that you are not allowed to bundle discounts with other products or services. Here is an example, slightly edited for privacy reasons.

Attached pricing list establishes minimum pricing levels for specific products. Listed products must not be bundled with free delivery, installation or other products/services to present the perception of discounts.

Violations are any and all advertisements, offers, proposals, sales, or promotions that list the specified products at less than the minimum allowed price. Note that any resellers are allowed to advertise, offer, propose, sell or promote any and all "Company A" products at any price they desire, however, "Company A" will unilaterally enforce this policy per the penalties listed below.
w.

So while it is not against the law for dealers to sell at whatever price, it is also not against the law if manufacturers don't supply the dealer. The Sherman laws still help with monopolies but many companies have pricing policies or "colgate policies". A relatively recent lawsuit was brought forth by a dealer and lost. Look up Leegin vs PSKS. Here is an excerpt from the colgate ruling.

"The purpose of the Sherman Act is to prohibit monopolies, contracts and combinations which probably would unduly interfere with the free exercise of their rights by those engaged, or who wish to engage, in trade and commerce—in a word to preserve the right of freedom to trade. In the absence of any purpose to create or maintain a monopoly, the act does not restrict the long recognized right of trader or manufacturer engaged in an entirely private business, freely to exercise his own independent discretion as to parties with whom he will deal; and, of course, he may announce in advance the circumstances under which he will refuse to sell."

Many companies have these type of policies and do so to maintain there dealers. With margins being down from years ago dealers are looking to preserve even small margins witrh companies that use these policies. Companies can also cut off a dealer for not having a showroom and displaying their product if that is in their policy. I don't know about B&W specifically. But this is not illegal practice.

What is illegal is a monopoly of a product type and the practices that can cause that. Too many to list.. I don't think B&W has anything near a monopoly on the speaker market. Price fixing amongst companies is another illegal act. I believe a few TV manufacturers just got fined for this not too long ago. For agreeing not lower prices below a certain level.
post #13237 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That is a violation of FTC regulations, and could result in a fine so large that the last thing they'll be worrying about is discounters. Legally any dealer can sell anything for any price they want. The only thing B&W can legally get away with is restricting the minimum price that a seller may advertise. Anything beyond that is price fixing, which violates the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890. If B&W got away with doing this it's only because the dealers in question were unaware of the law.

B&W and Paradigm and Apple and Samsung, and, well, almost every name brand.

For that matter: look app stores (like Apple or Steam) where the producer sets the end price and the seller takes a cut (30% in Apple's case).

Even the DOJ suite against ebooks publishers was based on the premise the the publisher's colluded with one another.
post #13238 of 14064
Which center channel should I buy to go with the 683 towers? Thanks!
post #13239 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

Which center channel should I buy to go with the 683 towers? Thanks!

Ideally, you should use another 683 tower. Since most people won't be able to have 3 towers as their LCR, you should consider either (i) a 685, if you can place it vertically or (ii) a CMC2 center speaker. When I had the 683s, I used the CMC2.
post #13240 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

Ideally, you should use another 683 tower. Since most people won't be able to have 3 towers as their LCR, you should consider either (i) a 685, if you can place it vertically or (ii) a CMC2 center speaker. When I had the 683s, I used the CMC2.

Thanks! This brings up a few questions that I had.

(i) I don't think I would be able to place a third 683 tower very well in my space.
(ii) Can I buy a single 685 speaker anywhere that you know about? If so, would I have to turn a tweeter or anything like that?
(iii) Is the CMC2 "timber matched" with the 683's?
post #13241 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

Thanks! This brings up a few questions that I had.

(i) I don't think I would be able to place a third 683 tower very well in my space.
(ii) Can I buy a single 685 speaker anywhere that you know about? If so, would I have to turn a tweeter or anything like that?
(iii) Is the CMC2 "timber matched" with the 683's?

With respect to the 685, you wouldn't have to modify it. Simply place it vertically (as you would normally if you had two) and it should be good. I'm not aware of a place that sells the 685 individually, but I would try going to a local hifi store and not BB/Magnolia.

Regarding the CMC2, it's a good timbre match for the 683. I initially tried the HTM61 then the CMC. The CMC2 was the best match for the 683s.
post #13242 of 14064
I have to put my 2 cents in here I have the 683 and z685 was using with a LCR s2 that I have had for years. Was not very pleased tried the 685 just to see was ok not great . Finally got an htm61 could not be happier great system 683, 685, htm1. I do not understand the bad wrap this center gets takes a tiny bit more tweaking but final result awesome.
Edited by william06 - 3/18/13 at 10:11am
post #13243 of 14064

Question do you believe this?

 

"Originally Posted by Ettepet View Post I am no audiophile but have good hearing. My affinity with "warm" sound, or tubes for that matter, is zilch. What I am hearing on a good setup with a fine (simple, not full-range crap) tube amp is stuff I have yet to hear on any solid state amp. My best description for it is reading cartoons your whole life, every surface in the cartoon encircled by black lining no matter how realistic the rest of the imagery, and then seeing a cartoon with just wonderfully painted scenery and - no - black lining. Fortunately I also experienced this at home with a (lend) Melody tube amp, an Arcam cd/dvd player I own and my Danley SM60F's. To return to the topic of this thread, I hope to repeat this with the Oppo 105 and a yet-to-buy amp."

 

I am curious about the difference between tubes and solid state with B&W speakers?  I always thought that tube amos were actually colored and didn't reproduce the sound exactly?

 

Has any one tried this amp? Emotiva XPL-1L 

 

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa-1l  


Edited by wse - 3/18/13 at 3:02pm
post #13244 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post


I am curious about the difference between tubes and solid state with B&W speakers?  I always thought that tube amos were actually colored and didn't reproduce the sound exactly?

Has any one tried this amp? Emotiva XPL-1L 

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa-1l
  

When did they release the 1L? Looks interesting.
post #13245 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View PostWhen did they release the 1L? Looks interesting.

Very recently!

post #13246 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Very recently!

I would so love to do an A/B/C with the "regular" 1 and say classe or something... maybe throw in a tube just for fun...
post #13247 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Bill you are right and you are wrong. You are right that dealers are able to sell for whatever price that they want. You are wrong in that manufacturers have to supply the dealer. If you don't follow the manufacturers pricing policy they no longer sell you product.
I'm personally aware of an instance where Salomon Skis tried doing that and got hit with a six figure judgement. Once a dealership is granted so long as the dealer agreement isn't violated the dealer holds all the cards. A dealer agreement cannot fix prices, only the minimum advertised price. But the door does swing both ways; dealers cannot even discuss pricing among themselves, let alone agree to sell at the same price, be it lower or higher than suggested retail.
post #13248 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post

are you going to use the new 802d2 as your left and right on your home theater setup as well as your two channel?

no just upstaris in 2 channel
post #13249 of 14064
The above discussions regarding dealer discounts are interesting. I want to retract my statement regarding the discount I may or may not have recieved. I was given a discount or somewhere between 0% and 52% off of a pair of demos.biggrin.gif
post #13250 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by mominayal View PostThe above discussions regarding dealer discounts are interesting. I want to retract my statement regarding the discount I may or may not have received. I was given a discount or somewhere between 0% and 52% off of a pair of demos.biggrin.gif

I like that 52% please sign me up :)

post #13251 of 14064
You guys are confusing contract law (which governs the relationship between B&W and the dealers) with federal antitrust law (which governs the relationship between B&W, other speaker manufactures, the dealers and the general public). Without going into boring technical legalese, provided that B&W's contract with the dealers specifies the lowest price at which the dealers can sell B&W speakers, B&W can dictate the pricing scheme of its speakers. Their contract will dictate in this case and the most a dealer could do is sue for breach of contract if the agreement doesn't allow B&W to set minimum prices. Undoubtedly, B&W would have negotiating leverage, so their contract with the various dealers would be written by B&W and agreed to by the dealers. The Sherman Antitrust act is not relevant here.

*The above statement in no way constitutes legal advice.
post #13252 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

I like that 52% please sign me up smile.gif

ive been meaning to ask you, what speaker cable are you using in your setup?
post #13253 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by mominayal View Post

I 've been meaning to ask you, what speaker cable are you using in your setup?

Mogami W3104 http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/conventional_configuration/

I also use Kimber Kabyle 8TC, I bought a pair of 30 feet long five years ago for $300 smile.gif. So I cut them into 7.5 feet and they work great.
post #13254 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Mogami W3104 http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/conventional_configuration/

I also use Kimber Kabyle 8TC, I bought a pair of 30 feet long five years ago for $300 smile.gif. So I cut them into 7.5 feet and they work great.

I can t find a price on line for the mogami speaker but seem in the range of the kimber cables, is that about right?

I would suggest to anyone interested in checking JWaudio cables. wierd looking but UNBELIEVABLE and not $$$$. I am actually gonna take them in to my dealer and A/B test them against his kubala sosna emotions. I hope I win:p
post #13255 of 14064
What should I pay for old school , cdm1se ? Are they good bang for the buck?
post #13256 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by mominayal View PostI can t find a price on line for the mogami speaker but seem in the range of the kimber cables, is that about right? I would suggest to anyone interested in checking JWaudio cables. wierd looking but UNBELIEVABLE and not $$$$. I am actually gonna take them in to my dealer and A/B test them against his kubala sosna emotions. I hope I win:p

I should get in the cable business there as so much mark-ups!

post #13257 of 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by riddledwitlead View Post

What should I pay for old school , cdm1se ? Are they good bang for the buck?

Are they in good condition? Red? Cherry? Black? I'd say somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 or $600. They're not listed very often.

I upgraded to Nautilus 805s many years ago and gave my pair of CDM1Ses to a buddy of mine as payment for quite a bit of electrical work he did at my house. He still has them and I wish I paid him in cash (sob).
post #13258 of 14064
Awesome , thanks... I got it... (Sob) haha
post #13259 of 14064
hey guys just joined the bowers club,

i upgraded my klipsch rf52 ii and rc52 ii to bowers 683s and htm61

im currently running a yamaha avenatge rx2000 130 wpc

i am planing on on purchasing a seperate amplifier in the future to power the 3 front channels and let the receiever run the rears "there power hungry speakers"

at this time i am leaving the klipsch rsw in wall speakers as they are for now as they only do speacial effects stuff, "eventually i will replace with matching bowres in walls"



i am still have mic thoughts on the center htm61 but i will do some adjusting to see what i can bring out of them,

the old klipsch did have a much brighter sound to them with the horns and worked great for movies. but the bowers has great all around preformance and going to a 3 way system is very nice,


any one have recomendations on frequency settings for the center channel ?

do most people use or dont use the port plugs ?

the room is open with tile floor and vaulted roof "not the best for sound refelection of course"

thanks guys
post #13260 of 14064
My set up is 11.2 the main 5 B&W I use plugs forn683 f 685 surround but not htm61. Carpet and heavy furniture.
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