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post #14101 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

So if I'm already running 805D2's up front, will there be any advantage to upgrading to 802D2's or 800D2's if I plan to pair the 805's with 1 or 2 DB1's? I'm actually considering the REL G2, B&W DB1 or Paradigm Sub 2. Obviously the Sub 2 will be more of a stretch for me, but I want something that will integrate seamlessly with my 805's and also provide me with almost unlimited bass (low frequency) extension. My other requirement for a sub is, that it be relatively small with great fit and finish (basically something on par or better than the build quality of my 805's). My main priority though is that the sub blends seamlessly with my 805's for music mainly. I'd like it to perform well with movies too, but music is my main focus.

If someone has other suggestions for a sub that meets my requirements, feel free to chime in.

The 802's and 800's are much better in the mids then the 805's and simply project sound into the room much, much better giving more depth, spaciousness and 3 dimensionality. Sure adding a sub or two will give you higher SPL's at lower frequencies but the subs do absolutely nothing in the mid range so you are stuck with what you have in that regard. If your intent is home theater not music then the 805/sub combination is the way to go. If you have a music rig then it's the other way around. Best of both worlds is a 802/800 paired with stereo subs. Since you state your focus is on music, unless you have a very small room I'd go with the 802's or 800's, hands down and honestly unless you like bloating the bass while listening to your music i.e. going to the bass control and cranking it meaning you are not truly listening to the source in a neutral state you might be surprised at the bass capabilities of the 802's and 800's. I always secretly shook my head when reading about people tossing their subs or simply never buying them in the first place when running a stereo rig but getting the 800's opened my eyes and broadened my appreciation for what some speakers can deliver leaving me to the conclusion these people aren't mad after all smile.gif I still feel though that a sub is a necessity for home theater because the bass in the LFE soundtrack is mostly artificial sound to begin with mixed at a purposefully increased volume so letting a speaker specifically designed to deal with that just makes since, i.e. a subwoofer.
post #14102 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

That's a big relief. Thank you!

What would you classify as "nice"? I've researched a lot of subs. Are there particularly qualities I should be looking for to best complement the CM5's?

1. Accurate (low THD)
2. Tight/ musical (low Q-value)
3. Output (high SPL/ good power compression)

IMO, anything from the $740 Outlaw sub to the $1400 Rythmik is "nice". biggrin.gif
So if you have the budget, get the Rythmik FV15HP. That is one NICE sub. wink.gif


$740 Outlaw LFM-1EX: 101.0/110.7/112.3/113.7/113.8 dB
$800 Power Sound XV15: 102.7/109.6/113.7/116.6/114.7
$800 Epik Empire: 102.2/109.7/113.2/116.4/119.2
$2200 JL Audio F112: 92.8/112.4/116.2/113.3/117.6
$1700 Funk FW12X: 107.0/112.4/114.0/113.9/113.1
$1400 SVS PB12+: 107.0/111.5/114.3/115.3/115.3
$9,000 Paradigm Sig Sub2: 106.4/109.9/113.2/116.9/120.2
$1022 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$5,000 Velodyne DD18+: 103.4/113.0/115.8/116.8/115.3
$2,000 SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
$700 Chase HT VS18.1: 111.1/ 116.0/118.1/117.8/117.2
$1,400 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8
post #14103 of 17823
As fas as "needing" subs for music, it all depends on preference. Some people don't want a lot of bass, and some people want a lot of bass.

Obviously the 800D2 isn't going to match the bass from a Funk 18.0, Rythmik, SVS, etc, sub.

Being able to play 20-50Hz @ 85-90dB is one thing. Playing 20-50Hz @ 100+dB w/ low THD, low Q, w/o compressing is another thing.

But so what if you just don't care about that kind of bass for music (or movies) ?

The only person you have to please is yourself.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 6/21/13 at 9:21am
post #14104 of 17823
I don't know guys but I have tried mix the sub(svs sb12) with my 804Di in music(stereo) and the sound in the bass is not as good like when I'm using my tower full range, obviously the bass is not that loud but I feel the air moving is more tight them a subwoofer; my dedicated room is very small(10x12x8) maybe this is why I can get it.

what do you think?
post #14105 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

The 802's and 800's are much better in the mids then the 805's and simply project sound into the room much, much better giving more depth, spaciousness and 3 dimensionality. Sure adding a sub or two will give you higher SPL's at lower frequencies but the subs do absolutely nothing in the mid range so you are stuck with what you have in that regard. If your intent is home theater not music then the 805/sub combination is the way to go. If you have a music rig then it's the other way around. Best of both worlds is a 802/800 paired with stereo subs. Since you state your focus is on music, unless you have a very small room I'd go with the 802's or 800's, hands down and honestly unless you like bloating the bass while listening to your music i.e. going to the bass control and cranking it meaning you are not truly listening to the source in a neutral state you might be surprised at the bass capabilities of the 802's and 800's. I always secretly shook my head when reading about people tossing their subs or simply never buying them in the first place when running a stereo rig but getting the 800's opened my eyes and broadened my appreciation for what some speakers can deliver leaving me to the conclusion these people aren't mad after all smile.gif I still feel though that a sub is a necessity for home theater because the bass in the LFE soundtrack is mostly artificial sound to begin with mixed at a purposefully increased volume so letting a speaker specifically designed to deal with that just makes since, i.e. a subwoofer.

Good to know Rod. Thanks. I bought the 805's due to space, however I will be moving soon and will have a larger area to work with so I can move the 805's to the rear and look to buy either the 802's or 800's for my front speakers.

Thanks to everyone else that offer their suggestions!
post #14106 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

Hey guys,

I've got a fairly large room (23' x 27' x 9.5') with a lack of ideal places to put tower speakers. However, I demoed the CM5's at a local Magnolia and they impressed me. I'm thinking they might be able to create a sufficient amount of sound for the room. I'd use them for 30% movies and 70% TV shows.

What're your thoughts? Can it work? Are there other options I should be considering?

This is the scenario I have to work with:

I take it you don't want to put towers in front of the windows? If you are okay with this, then that is what I would get. However, you're focus is movies/TV so the center will be way more important and I assume you will be using a sub too?

B.
post #14107 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View PostThe 802's and 800's are much better in the mids then the 805's and simply project sound into the room much, much better giving more depth, spaciousness and 3 dimensionality.
YES
Sure adding a sub or two will give you higher SPL's at lower frequencies but the subs do absolutely nothing in the mid range so you are stuck with what you have in that regard. If your intent is home theater not music then the 805/sub combination is the way to go.
Especially if you want 11.4 system :)
If you have a music rig then it's the other way around. Best of both worlds is a 802/800 paired with stereo subs.
YES Three 800Diamonds2 will bring you close to AudioNirvana
Since you state your focus is on music, unless you have a very small room I'd go with the 802's or 800's, hands down and honestly unless you like bloating the bass while listening to your music i.e. going to the bass control and cranking it meaning you are not truly listening to the source in a neutral state you might be surprised at the bass capabilities of the 802's and 800's.
Outstanding
I always secretly shook my head when reading about people tossing their subs or simply never buying them in the first place when running a stereo rig but getting the 800's opened my eyes and broadened my appreciation for what some speakers can deliver leaving me to the conclusion these people aren't mad after all smile.gifI still feel though that a sub is a necessity for home theater because the bass in the LFE soundtrack is mostly artificial sound to begin with mixed at a purposefully increased volume so letting a speaker specifically designed to deal with that just makes since, i.e. a subwoofer.
I use two JL Audio F113 as subs and for movies they shake the house :)
 
post #14108 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

I take it you don't want to put towers in front of the windows? If you are okay with this, then that is what I would get. However, you're focus is movies/TV so the center will be way more important and I assume you will be using a sub too?
I can double-check with the Mrs., but I'm pretty sure that placing speakers in front of windows would be a veto. If you'd think my setup wouldn't work without towers, I might need to totally revisit the topic with her.

I will definitely be looking into a decent sub.

It's actually funny that you mention the center channel... There's not really a good place to put one. One of the reasons I was drawn to the CM5's is because when I demoed them by themselves (with a sub) they were able to create what I'd call a "shadow center channel". It was like a fantastic ventriloquism act. I couldn't even tell that a center channel wasn't being used at first. Impressive stuff.
post #14109 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

I can double-check with the Mrs., but I'm pretty sure that placing speakers in front of windows would be a veto. If you'd think my setup wouldn't work without towers, I might need to totally revisit the topic with her.

I will definitely be looking into a decent sub.

It's actually funny that you mention the center channel... There's not really a good place to put one. One of the reasons I was drawn to the CM5's is because when I demoed them by themselves (with a sub) they were able to create what I'd call a "shadow center channel". It was like a fantastic ventriloquism act. I couldn't even tell that a center channel wasn't being used at first. Impressive stuff.

Many people use a phantom center - only 2 speakers for movies.

Not as great as a dedicated center IMO, but may be good enough.

What about on-wall/ceiling speakers? They won't be equal to bookshelf and tower, but may be just as good to some, especially with the help of a potent subwoofer, like the $1,400 Rythmik FV15HP.
post #14110 of 17823
I run a phantom center with my 684's and don't miss the center speaker at all. As long as your listening position doesn't get too far off axis you should be fine. Another option might be to go to ceiling, or in-wall, speakers. With that sloped ceiling it might not be too bad.
post #14111 of 17823
Hi,

Took a while and thanks for the people who answered my questions a few months ago but the result is that today 2 802D2's and HTM2D was installed into my setup. I will use it with a denon avp-a1hdci-3d and poa-a1hdci.

Daniel now a member of the owners thread for real smile.gif

post #14112 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

What about on-wall/ceiling speakers? They won't be equal to bookshelf and tower, but may be just as good to some, especially with the help of a potent subwoofer, like the $1,400 Rythmik FV15HP.

I guess it's a toss up. Is it worth sacrificing the CM5's for lesser in-wall speakers in order to get a center channel? Or would the CWM663 or CWM664 be comparable to the CM5?

If an in-wall speaker will be inferior, could I keep the CM5's, do an in-ceiling center, and let Audyssey work it's magic? Would Audyssey be able to effectlvely compensate for such a situation? Would I have a problem finding an in-wall speaker that sufficiently matches the CM5s?

Thank you for all your help so far.
post #14113 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Hi,

Took a while and thanks for the people who answered my questions a few months ago but the result is that today 2 802D2's and HTM2D was installed into my setup. I will use it with a denon avp-a1hdci-3d and poa-a1hdci.

Daniel now a member of the owners thread for real smile.gif


Congratz! Beautiful setup, pretty much what I dream of having one day :P.
post #14114 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

I take it you don't want to put towers in front of the windows? If you are okay with this, then that is what I would get. However, you're focus is movies/TV so the center will be way more important and I assume you will be using a sub too?

B.

You probably know this already, but placing a TV above the fireplace makes for an unpleasant viewing experience.

I do not have a vaulted ceiling, but I do have a 5.1 system using all in-ceiling speakers (B&W CCM 818 for LCR and B&W CCM 684 for rear). The in-ceiling speakers are much better than nothing at all. However, for two channel music listening in particular I find that the image projected from in-ceilings is quite inferior to in-wall or in room speakers which will project across the room. It is a bit hard for me to tell, but you could put your LCR on the wall / ceiling immediately above the TV and this looks like it will project at an angle into the room. My ceiling projects downward although my speakers can be angled slightly.

Is it possible to place TV and speakers on another wall or have a dedicated home theater in another room?
post #14115 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Hi,

Took a while and thanks for the people who answered my questions a few months ago but the result is that today 2 802D2's and HTM2D was installed into my setup. I will use it with a denon avp-a1hdci-3d and poa-a1hdci.

Daniel now a member of the owners thread for real smile.gif


Congrats! Looks superb. Fantastic selection (and I like gloss black!)
post #14116 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

You probably know this already, but placing a TV above the fireplace makes for an unpleasant viewing experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

Is it possible to place TV and speakers on another wall or have a dedicated home theater in another room?

This is something that I've tossed and turned over for weeks. There's another wall where we could potentially do something, but there's a huge window:



Putting a 75" display in front of the window is a complete veto from the Mrs., probably for good reason. We debated doing recessed projector screen that could block the window on demand, but there are a ton of windows in the room and the projector quality would get diminished greatly. There were also a variety of other complications that came into play as well, such as ceiling fans and finding a vendor that would actually make the screen specs we needed.

The good news, however, is that the seating will be so far back from the fireplace that the angle isn't even remotely uncomfortable. I tested this myself and it my neck tilt was almost imperceptible, especially because the TV would be tilted slightly forward as well. Here's what it looks like from the side:

(The chair is placed where the sectional sofa would go)


Quote:
Originally Posted by deeda View Post

I do not have a vaulted ceiling, but I do have a 5.1 system using all in-ceiling speakers (B&W CCM 818 for LCR and B&W CCM 684 for rear). The in-ceiling speakers are much better than nothing at all. However, for two channel music listening in particular I find that the image projected from in-ceilings is quite inferior to in-wall or in room speakers which will project across the room. It is a bit hard for me to tell, but you could put your LCR on the wall / ceiling immediately above the TV and this looks like it will project at an angle into the room. My ceiling projects downward although my speakers can be angled slightly.

The ceiling here isn't quite vaulted either; it's only about 9.5 feet high. If I had to do in-ceiling, couldn't I just use speakers with drivers that I can direct?
post #14117 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

This is something that I've tossed and turned over for weeks. There's another wall where we could potentially do something, but there's a huge window:



Putting a 75" display in front of the window is a complete veto from the Mrs., probably for good reason. We debated doing recessed projector screen that could block the window on demand, but there are a ton of windows in the room and the projector quality would get diminished greatly. There were also a variety of other complications that came into play as well, such as ceiling fans and finding a vendor that would actually make the screen specs we needed.

The good news, however, is that the seating will be so far back from the fireplace that the angle isn't even remotely uncomfortable. I tested this myself and it my neck tilt was almost imperceptible, especially because the TV would be tilted slightly forward as well. Here's what it looks like from the side:

(The chair is placed where the sectional sofa would go)

The ceiling here isn't quite vaulted either; it's only about 9.5 feet high. If I had to do in-ceiling, couldn't I just use speakers with drivers that I can direct?

Superb room, I would Put thick blinds to block the light from the window when yo want to watch a movie and have an I ceiling screen in front of the window!
post #14118 of 17823
Hello all... looking for a few things. midrange and bass gills for 802N or first gen D series. also tossing around the idea of a 802n or D for my center channel. also an anthem p2 or p5 amp.

let me know if ya hear anything,

Thank you,
Bill
post #14119 of 17823
Hello B&W users. My current setup is:
B&W 804 Diamond
2xKen Kreisel 12012 subwoofers
Classe CP800 Preamplifier (with submanagement)
Rogue Audio M-150.

My CP800 x-over is set at 60hz (hipass and lowpass, with 24db rolloff). Im planning to buy the 802Diamond next year, but still use x-cover at 60hz, since my Rogue Audio M-150 aint the strongest amps out there ( to be tube amps they got descent of power).

How much amplifier power do i need when i xcover at 60hz/24db rolloff vs full scale? Are we talking about 50% less at 60hz xcover, than needed at full scale?

Hope you understand my question right wink.gif.
post #14120 of 17823
Very nice setup! For SS I would suggest a Parasound Halo A21 with 250/400 wpc (8/4 ohm) or an ATI AT3002 (300 wpc 8 ohms). If you go with Ayre you can get by with 150 wpc. If you want a tube hybrid the Van Alstine Fet Valve 600R is highly regarded (300 wpc). Tube only, have to ask others.
Edit: in most cases I would suggest 250-300 wpc for SS. So if you want to spend more the Bryston 4B sst2 (300/500) or Classe CA2300 (300/600) are excellent choices. And of course since you are planning on 802 Ds nothing wrong with 600 watt mono overkill such as Macintosh, Classe or Bryston.
Edited by jima4a - 6/23/13 at 6:47am
post #14121 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by spurv View Post

Hello B&W users. My current setup is:
B&W 804 Diamond 2xKen Kreisel 12012 subwoofers Classe CP800 Preamplifier (with submanagement)
Rogue Audio M-150. My CP800 x-over is set at 60hz (hipass and lowpass, with 24db rolloff). Im planning to buy the 802Diamond next year, but still use x-cover at 60hz, since my Rogue Audio M-150 aint the strongest amps out there ( to be tube amps they got descent of power). How much amplifier power do i need when i xcover at 60hz/24db rolloff vs full scale? Are we talking about 50% less at 60hz xcover, than needed at full scale?
Hope you understand my question right wink.gif.

How big is your room, how loud are you listening to music, also important is how much current do your amps provide?
post #14122 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post




I would put the TV and front tower speakers on the wall OPPOSITE the fireplace side.
post #14123 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Hi,

Took a while and thanks for the people who answered my questions a few months ago but the result is that today 2 802D2's and HTM2D was installed into my setup. I will use it with a denon avp-a1hdci-3d and poa-a1hdci.

Daniel now a member of the owners thread for real smile.gif


Pics like these make me wish I had gone with the gloss black eek.gif
post #14124 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I would put the TV and front tower speakers on the wall OPPOSITE the fireplace side.

That's exactly what I was thinking!
post #14125 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I would put the TV and front tower speakers on the wall OPPOSITE the fireplace side.
Hmm... Worth consideration. I'm inclined to believe that facing a large sectional away from the fireplace might look a little awkward. I'll have to think on that one and see if I can figure out a way to avoid a scowl from the Mrs. (and my interior designer). I also discovered a world of projector screens that work well with ambient lighting, so I might be able to do a screen in front of the large window.

Either way, I'm now left with a ton more speaker options. Keeping in mind the room size and 100% focus on TV/movies, what would you recommend for 3 front speakers with $2000 budget? It seems like you guys are convinced I should go towers if I want to use this for movies.
post #14126 of 17823
Hi Everyone,

I would need some suggestion. I can buy a used pair of B&W 803N (Nautilus series) for little over $2K. The pair is about 10years old. Do you think that its a fair price ? also, is there any risk of the speakers of this old getting damaged (the owner claims that it works perfectly) or not functioning as expected ? what would be the lifespan of these speakers ? How does 803N and 804D compare ?
The newer 804D is beyond my budget. I just want to make an informed decision before I buy smile.gif

Thanks in advance.
post #14127 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by debjit_g View Post

Hi Everyone, i would need some suggestion. I can buy a used pair of B&W 803N (Nautilus series) for little over $2K. The pair is about 10years old. Do you think that its a fair price ? also, is there any risk of the speakers of this old getting damaged (the owner claims that it works perfectly) or not functioning as expected ? what would be the lifespan of these speakers ? How does 803N and 804D compare ? The newer 804D is beyond my budget. I just want to make an informed decision before I buy smile.gif

Thanks in advance.

10 years is a bit too old all the rubber joint start to get hard and decompose slowly. Having said that I have B&W DM 603 that are 15 years old but they were kept in a rather humid condition!
Edited by wse - 6/23/13 at 1:38pm
post #14128 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

10 years is a bit too old all the rubber joint start to get hard and decompose slowly.

Thanks wse and I agree. I would ideally like to have the 800 series but at this point how would CM9 compare for listening to music 80% and movies 20% ?
post #14129 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by debjit_g View Post

Thanks wse and I agree. I would ideally like to have the 800 series but at this point how would CM9 compare for listening to music 80% and movies 20% ?

I would get the N803. You get a much better cabinet including the outside tweeter tube for less money than the CM9. Used retail on the 803 is $2k-2.4k, so you could try to negotiate a better price. However, even if you had to replace a driver or two they would be less than the CM9 and still have the same resale value as when you purchased. Anyway, they would sound better than the CM9s as well.

B.
post #14130 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by jklick View Post

Hmm... Worth consideration. I'm inclined to believe that facing a large sectional away from the fireplace might look a little awkward. I'll have to think on that one and see if I can figure out a way to avoid a scowl from the Mrs. (and my interior designer). I also discovered a world of projector screens that work well with ambient lighting, so I might be able to do a screen in front of the large window.

Either way, I'm now left with a ton more speaker options. Keeping in mind the room size and 100% focus on TV/movies, what would you recommend for 3 front speakers with $2000 budget? It seems like you guys are convinced I should go towers if I want to use this for movies.

If you are going to use 100% for home theater than you can consider bookshelves instead of towers. Others can articulate this better than I, but when you use subs you generally send the LFE to subs and not LCR. If you are not going to listen to music, then woofers in towers are somewhat wasted. The room is quite large so you will likely need two subs (large ones). Also, and perhaps most important, the hardwood floors, walls and windows make the room very accoustically challenged. You will want area rugs, window treatments, etc to help the room. Great speakers can't overcome poor room accoustics.
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