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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 496

post #14851 of 17817
Like you, I am strongly leaning towards bigger 804 D2 for the surrounds. Better match with 802D2 up front.

When you say:

"I bi-amp my surrounds with 400 watts going to them, is it that necessary? No but when the rear surrounds need the power it's there and the results are simply awesome!"

can you give me an example - are you talking a movie or multi-ch music? Can you give me specific movie or artist/track so i can try understand why it would be awesome with all that amplification.

As for subs, I have two JL f113. They are both along front wall, near my FL, FR speakers. I am still waiting for my USB mic so i haven't done any REW yet. But i ran Integra DHC 80.3 Audyssey XT32 and it all sounds pretty good (I only have 2.2 system now with old speakers for FL, FR).

Are you saying that two subs are insufficient? My thought is that the rears fire into the back of your head so they are not too important. Do the rears need their own bass for movies or multi-ch music to sound good? I thought two subs would be enough and the rears would just do directional frequencies - not the non-directional bass sound.

thanks !!
post #14852 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

I don't own diamonds but... I plug one into HF one into LF. That way should something come loose, such as the speaker wire or gold connector... the whole speaker cuts out and I get up and turn it off.

LOL - I wonder if anyone's done a white paper on this approach... rolleyes.gifbiggrin.giftongue.gif
post #14853 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

So yesterday it was really nice weather for the first time in months down here in the deep south. Cool , dry, low humidity.
So i decided to make the LONG drive to dealer and brought some CDs and mp3s.
I got to listen to the 802 D2 for close to two hours, all by myself - no one else in the room.
It was all pretty expensive Classe stuff - monoblocks i think. He connected my laptop to a Classe processor using USB.

This was the first time in 15 years that i have listened to high end speakers.
I was VERY impressed. I am very familiar with the tracks but it was like i was hearing them for the first time.
Even though they were mp3s, it was spectacular.
Some tracks raised the hair on the back of my neck - almost brought me to tears. smile.gif

I really did not think they would sound that good.

I will pull trigger in a few weeks.

You might want to listen to a lot of other speakers also just to be sure. That is a lot of paychecks there.
post #14854 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post


You might want to listen to a lot of other speakers also just to be sure. That is a lot of paychecks there.

awwwww
i'm the sort of person that waffles WAY too much
"on the one hand ... but on the other hand ... then again ..."

if you give me a huge decision and even just a few choices, i will agonize to death over it and never pull trigger

my dream has always been B&W with the marlan head

They had Revel Salon in same room and Wilson (Sasha i think). I have never seen $20K speakers with casters before.
Edited by bao01 - 9/15/13 at 12:19pm
post #14855 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

awwwww
i'm the sort of person that waffles WAY too much
"on the one hand ... but on the other hand ... then again ..."

if you give me a huge decision and even just a few choices, i will agonize to death over it and never pull trigger

my dream has always been B&W with the marlan head

They had Revel Studio in same room and Wilson (Sasha i think). I have never $20K speakers with casters before.

Just get the b&w - you won't regret it. (althoug the salons are also great smile.gif)
post #14856 of 17817
Has any members ever listened to a recent action flick with only their surrounds on? Try a NFL football game. You will be surprised how much info comes through. In fact....the mains do very little work in many movies depending on the type of set up you run, 5.1 or 7.1?

What type of movies am I talking about, Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises. Star Trek, Oblivion. A great one to look at for surround tracks is Star Wars 3. At the beginning when the when really big ship is flying over the planet and the Jedi fighters come flying across. U571 is really good too, the scene where the Americans are eating dinner on the sub and all the dishes are sliding around, then the scene where the German airplanes buzzes over the sub is simply stunning with quality surrounds.

Do I need 400WPC at 8 ohms driving my surrounds? Nope, but I've always felt all speakers work best with extra power to drive them, or actually control them. I'm using a Classe CA-5200 to drive my surrounds and centers. My center HTMD2 gets 200 watts at 8 ohms. I originally had a 7.1 setup and went back to 5.1...my room is not deep enough to do 5.1 properly and does 5.1 well. Therefore I have 4 channels available for my rear surrounds and my dealer wanted to bi-amp them. I'm using the B&W Signature 8NT which is basically a 804N...the back boxes are very impressive, really lets you see what's inside top of the line B&W speakers. My mains are 800D2

I'm not saying 2 subs are not enough for your system. Although Ido have 3, 2 REL G1 for the front, and a Velodyne DD-18 for the rear. Di need that? Again No! But it sounds even better with it.

In closing I'm suggesting you take into consideration if you want a rear sub, if bass is important to you in a movie, in particular rear surrounds? If so...the 804's might be a better pick for you. Only you can decide. Be sure to include the cost of the stands for the 805's in your comparison because you do want them at ear level. If possible consider the PM1 too. Have you considered the B&W in wall series? I don't know anything about your room. In walls serve an important segment and might be a better choice and can perform at 804 or 805 levels but take up no floor space and potentially work better...it did for me.

I'm just trying to force you to consider all aspects of your decision.

See Ya,
Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Like you, I am strongly leaning towards bigger 804 D2 for the surrounds. Better match with 802D2 up front.

When you say:

"I bi-amp my surrounds with 400 watts going to them, is it that necessary? No but when the rear surrounds need the power it's there and the results are simply awesome!"

can you give me an example - are you talking a movie or multi-ch music? Can you give me specific movie or artist/track so i can try understand why it would be awesome with all that amplification.

As for subs, I have two JL f113. They are both along front wall, near my FL, FR speakers. I am still waiting for my USB mic so i haven't done any REW yet. But i ran Integra DHC 80.3 Audyssey XT32 and it all sounds pretty good (I only have 2.2 system now with old speakers for FL, FR).

Are you saying that two subs are insufficient? My thought is that the rears fire into the back of your head so they are not too important. Do the rears need their own bass for movies or multi-ch music to sound good? I thought two subs would be enough and the rears would just do directional frequencies - not the non-directional bass sound.

thanks !!
post #14857 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post

Has any members ever listened to a recent action flick with only their surrounds on? Try a NFL football game. You will be surprised how much info comes through. In fact....the mains do very little work in many movies depending on the type of set up you run, 5.1 or 7.1?

What type of movies am I talking about, Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises. Star Trek, Oblivion. A great one to look at for surround tracks is Star Wars 3. At the beginning when the when really big ship is flying over the planet and the Jedi fighters come flying across. U571 is really good too, the scene where the Americans are eating dinner on the sub and all the dishes are sliding around, then the scene where the German airplanes buzzes over the sub is simply stunning with quality surrounds.

You would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a B&W 800D and an Infinity Primus 363 , as a surround, under most circumstances movie watching. (I have both B&W N801's and Infinity Primus 360's at the house)

The issue is not how much comes out, but how much changes in quality between competent and outstanding speakers affect the overall listening experience.
Quote:
In closing I'm suggesting you take into consideration if you want a rear sub

"rear sub"? Because of the wavelengths involved, there's little advantage to piping specific audio channels to specific subs (and the .1 mixing of movies would not support it regardless). Sub placement is about room interaction. Along with sub performance: that is the dominant factor in how good the end effect is in movie reproduction.

There is an argument in certain types of 2.0 recording regarding electrical LF cancellation which might be made for stereo, channel-dependent subs; but not in the current 5.1, 7.1, and 9.1 standards.
post #14858 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Just want to make sure i understand what you are saying. Are you stating that if i listen to multi ch music, the 804 D2 would be worthwhile but if i only watch movies, 805 D2 would be sufficient for the surrounds?

I thought 804 D2 may be better because it has the same 6" kevlar FST driver as 802 and it has same Rohacell woofers (but smaller than 802).
The 805 D2 has different size (6.5") Kevlar driver and no FST surround. Also, no Rohacell woofers.

For the rears, i'm not sure i should spend a lot of money because this is sound firing at the back of your head/ears so how good do they need to be even if you do listen to multi-ch music.
At least the surrounds fire into your ears.

yes it is the main idea, I have the 805Di in the surround position and they blend perfectly with my 804Di but one thing I can learned from my system and it is that in many films, the surround speaker not get much musical material. It is more background sound and effects so if you have the budget for it; the desition is easy, go for it!

I have my 805Di fed by my 200W rotel amp(before was fed by my receiver) and I think that with this new amplifier I not get any improvement IMHO (I put the crossover of this speaker to 80Hz). if you will play many sacd or DVD-A in your system then the surround speaker are a main concern. like said Steve you not need a huge amp but if you could afford one, why not!
you will not need for movies a 804Di but if you can pay it, why not.
One thing I'm agree with Steve the matching stand for the 805d (5700 USD vs 7500 USD) is very expensive so it is something you need verify before.

BTW the improvement that you listened in your audition I'm guessing was the classe CP800, it is a wonderful product and if you blend this with a classe amplifier I'm sure they will bring a huge smile in your face. that is why personaly I prefer put my budget in thing that I can enjoy more. in my case I put all my budget in the classe stereo combo and I do not regret. biggrin.gif
Edited by leo2498 - 9/15/13 at 6:31pm
post #14859 of 17817
For the most part you only pulled small parts of what I'm saying and made them stand alone sentences. What I suggested...was turning off the mains and play surround only to hear how much of a movie sound track is sent to the surrounds. In addition...I never meant to imply how much is coming out, I'm talking about "what's" coming out. There's a big difference. Modern sound tracks use surround much more than older movies.. What I "think" we need to focus and agree on is: you want to hear everything that's supposed to be heard, and as accurately as possible.

I agree that sub placement is about room interaction. There's a trend towards using subs that are designed to support the main speakers in 2 channels, and supplement for HT. It works great. Back to room interaction, I've spent a lot of time and money making sure my room is sonically as good as I can get it. I think it's fair to say this gets overlooked, ignored, or skipped in many 2 channel or HT rooms. You can have the best gear made and the end result can be less than stellar. I know I did that, and my room is not connected , or open to any other rooms. It still sucked, but not anymore. It's got bass traps, sound treatment on the wall and inside the walls.

Back to subs...I have my 2 subs placed in the "front" of the room and dialed in to have peak performance supporting my mains. My sub located in the "rear" of the room is dialed in for HT only. Therefore everything I'm talking about is not related to anything about sub position and is only related to room interaction.

I'm certain the sub located in the rear of the room makes a huge difference in the final sound of my system, and what I can hear. I don't care how much is coming out. I care what I can hear and is it as the director intended, or in the case of 2 channel does it sound as close as possible to what the musician wanted?

I never meant to imply a rear sub would benefit or need specific audio channel. However I did mean to say the rear surrounds could benefit from a sub setup to support the rear surround speakers.

At least 7 man days were spent dialing in my system to the interactions of my room. This was done by one of the most respected professionals in my area.

Last but not least...a lot of members ask for advice on this forum. I'm not a professional, but I do have a world class system I've built over the years. I made a lot of mistakes along the way. If I share my experience and it helps forum members avoid mistakes, or make better decisions then I feel good about it.

So back to the entire point. We have a member trying to make a decision on surround speakers to match his 802D2 mains. He's considered using 804D2 which were recently reviewed and got great feedback. It's also been suggested he consider 805D2, and I suggested he consider the B&W PM1, plus in wall. Many members of this forum don't think he needs to spend big bucks to get good surround results. I think my point about bass is important for rear surrounds and if short on bass a dedicated sub can fill in missing bass for the rear surround if set up properly. What decision is made is solely up to the end user, but all possibilities should be on the table, and real life decisions good or bad might be shared if helpful.

Take my comments only as my own and based on how my system is set up. While not the only opinion on this forum, I think I'm helping make him consider everything he needs to without knowing anything about the room itself.

See Ya,
Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

You would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a B&W 800D and an Infinity Primus 363 , as a surround, under most circumstances movie watching. (I have both B&W N801's and Infinity Primus 360's at the house)

The issue is not how much comes out, but how much changes in quality between competent and outstanding speakers affect the overall listening experience.
"rear sub"? Because of the wavelengths involved, there's little advantage to piping specific audio channels to specific subs (and the .1 mixing of movies would not support it regardless). Sub placement is about room interaction. Along with sub performance: that is the dominant factor in how good the end effect is in movie reproduction.

There is an argument in certain types of 2.0 recording regarding electrical LF cancellation which might be made for stereo, channel-dependent subs; but not in the current 5.1, 7.1, and 9.1 standards.

Edited by ClasseAddict - 9/15/13 at 7:03pm
post #14860 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post


my dream has always been B&W with the marlan head

This alone means that you will always wonder if you got anything else, in these cases its always better to go with the heart than the mind. All of them are great speakers but it seems to me that you already picked. I did the same thing i got the 802D2 and HTM2 partly because i like the look and always wanted them. If i would have gotten Revel (also looked at them) i would have not killed that itch of wanting the 802d's.

Daniel.
post #14861 of 17817
I find it hard to believe nobody has bought a pair of CM10s yet? Are they not out in the wild? Or are they just not worth the money?
post #14862 of 17817
I demo the DB1 at my place on Saturday... The first thing that I noticed was that it is made in China.. I thought that as being part of the "800 series" it was going to be made in the UK....
Second it weights a lot but it is of modest size... It matches quite nice with the design of the HTM2 and the 803s.... Its bass is fast, tight and deep... It also offers a lot of flexibility to tweak it for once tasting...
I was really pleaseantly surprise at its performance... Now that it no longer sits in HT, I really missed the bass that it was able to produce...I might be able to pull the trigger on it in the next couple of weeks.. However, I might demo the FF113 before I do so...
post #14863 of 17817
IMHO, you should demo the F 113 before buying that DB 1. Cheers.
post #14864 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

IMHO, you should demo the F 113 before buying that DB 1. Cheers.

Definitely Demo the F113 but I liked the DB1 better when I listened to them head to head same day same room. I would add Rel G2/G1 to the mix if I were you. I am also sure people will tell you that the ID brands should be considered.
post #14865 of 17817
While most consider B&W subs good but perhaps not worth the money, the DB1 for the price you are getting may be hard to beat.
post #14866 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Cool - this puts my mind at ease. I will get the delivery guys to bring them upstairs.

For the kind of money that you will be spending, you can ask the dealer to unpack and install them for you. In my case, the dealer's technicians came unpacked the speakers, installed the rubber supports, place them where I told them, and put audioquest banana plugs. Finally, my dealer, an audio engineer,came to the house to see how they sounded and did further adjustments to feet, etc...
post #14867 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

IMHO, you should demo the F 113 before buying that DB 1. Cheers.

I have two - they weigh a ton and are built like tanks - the fit and finish is superb.
They sound good to my ears - movies and music.
The boxes even come with cool little green feet on them to help with moving.
Edited by bao01 - 9/16/13 at 9:11am
post #14868 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

This alone means that you will always wonder if you got anything else, in these cases its always better to go with the heart than the mind. All of them are great speakers but it seems to me that you already picked. I did the same thing i got the 802D2 and HTM2 partly because i like the look and always wanted them. If i would have gotten Revel (also looked at them) i would have not killed that itch of wanting the 802d's.

Daniel.

You nailed it. It has been 15 years since I was last excited about this stuff. Back then, I didn't have the wherewithal to own top shelf B&Ws. I have to live the dream just once. Later, I can REALLY listen critically to other speakers and possibly make a change. But after 15 years, I must have the marlan head - just once. Once I have scratched the itch, I can change - maybe. smile.gif
post #14869 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalc3 View Post

For the kind of money that you will be spending, you can ask the dealer to unpack and install them for you. In my case, the dealer's technicians came unpacked the speakers, installed the rubber supports, place them where I told them, and put audioquest banana plugs. Finally, my dealer, an audio engineer,came to the house to see how they sounded and did further adjustments to feet, etc...

See my post one page earlier.
post #14870 of 17817
I bought eight B&W 685s to put in my condo. I did not purchase a HTM61 or 62 because of the bad reviews and plan hook up five of the 685s to my living room TV (with a Denon AVR1713 amp and Boston ASW250 subwoofer).

Two of the 685s are going into my bedroom, facing the bed, primarily for music and to be attached to a TV if I put one there.

The last 685 is going into my study alone for music.

Is it a good idea to break up a pair of 685s like this so you can use one as the center speaker of a TV 5.1 setup? Any problem with using a single 685 in a room for music?

By the way, I'm getting white 685s and figuring out how to mount them on metal brackets from the ceiling frames (the ceilings are low so the sound won't be weird). I live in Manila and the 685s are one of the few good speakers for smaller rooms I can find cheaper here.

Hope to hear your thoughts!
post #14871 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post


Definitely Demo the F113 but I liked the DB1 better when I listened to them head to head same day same room.  

But not in the same place, I suspect.  :)

post #14872 of 17817
I have B&W CWM LCR 7.4's for LCR and 7.5's for surround attached to a Pioneer VSX-32 receiver.

Sound quality is underwhelming. Do I have enough power for these?

The receiver is rated to 110w channel at 8ohm. I have the receiver set to 6ohm.
post #14873 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

But not in the same place, I suspect.  smile.gif

I would say pretty much the same place. They were right next to each other and we moved them around the room to see where we would get the best response...
post #14874 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by yukstah View Post

I have B&W CWM LCR 7.4's for LCR and 7.5's for surround attached to a Pioneer VSX-32 receiver.

Sound quality is underwhelming. Do I have enough power for these?

The receiver is rated to 110w channel at 8ohm. I have the receiver set to 6ohm.

Get a sub.

B.
post #14875 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

Get a sub.

B.

I have two ASW608's.
post #14876 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by yukstah View Post

I have two ASW608's.

What exactly are you finding underwhelming? Is it the low end, mid-range, higher frequencies or a combination? The ASW608s are modest subs with extension only down to 32 Hz. This is probably ok for a music-only system in a small listening space but not for HT or anything really in a larger space.
post #14877 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post

What exactly are you finding underwhelming? Is it the low end, mid-range, higher frequencies or a combination? The ASW608s are modest subs with extension only down to 32 Hz. This is probably ok for a music-only system in a small listening space but not for HT or anything really in a larger space.

Voice is muffled as normal volumes - if i crank it WAY up it's clear but then action scenes are way out of balance.
post #14878 of 17817
Anyone listened to the cm10's? Impressions?
post #14879 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobC1983 View Post

I find it hard to believe nobody has bought a pair of CM10s yet? Are they not out in the wild? Or are they just not worth the money?
Most folks I know we waiting for BW to make a new center channel to match it.
post #14880 of 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGT FTW View Post

601's, not 602's. 603's, not 604's. CDM7's rock, as do the CDM bookshelves.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, been setting up new sc-77 receiver.

I wanted to ask you about this comment, you do not like the 602, 603, or 604 for music or surround?

I just listened to the new M-1s and new 685 side by side and definitely want to get bookshelf as opposed to satellite size. What do you think of the new 685? Are they as good as the older 601s?

I wish I could find some CDM bookshelves I have not seen one.
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