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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 523

post #15661 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Finally got response from B&W North America:

"Hello, hope you are well

The black transit lock disk is to prevent the midrange draw bar fastener from loosening up during transit. leaving this in place cannot cause any damage to the speaker but should be removed to prevent it from vibrating and causing unwanted noise."

So there you have it.

Good we now know why they feel its there, I can see how by having this screw in and keeping tention on it it will stop the plug from moving. I was thinking about other ways they could have done this but given that it to in normal mode be 100% free in the gel i can't come up with a diffrerent way todo it that is easy.

Daniel.
post #15662 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post

One of the biggest mistakes made when putting together a high end HT systems is not enough quality wattage amps, and not enough clean power feeding the system. It's better to have superior amps that can handle a load. The amps control the speakers, no point in high end speakers without stability control (watts). Speakers are rarely damaged by being over powered and frequently damaged by a lack of power. Buying used quality amps is pretty safe, specially if can listen to them. I prefer Classe, but there's plenty of good amps you can buy as demos at 50% off with full warranty. I highly recommend separates for your mains amp.

Another fairly cheap way to get a better sounding system is dedicated 20 amp circuits to feed your system. Most systems don't have large enough circuits that are free of noise. I have 3 20 amp circuits feeding my system. Noise mainly from the grounding side of the system. All circuits feeding the system need to be on the same buss bar in the breaker panel. There are 2 buss bars on most residential breaker panels, which provides 2 120 volt circuits on different phases , combine 2 separate legs of 120 on different phases gives 240 volts..

I realize you are getting hit by a lot of opinions, expensive ones! Set your priorities and do your best to stick with them!

See Ya,
Steve
A lot of people I talk too about dedicated amp circuits, its like talking to somebody from a foreign country, for now I have one separated but im going to put two more in 2014.
post #15663 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morfious View Post

The $7500 decision Full CM system or 805d + HTM4 and save more,

Between a promotion at work and my year end bonus I have some extra cash this year to devote to my home theater setup. I have an Emotiva UMC-200 Preamp and plan to get their XPA-5 Amplifer (200 w x 5) to power the system. Folks on the Emotiva forums have this setup and it works just fine with both the B&W CM and 800 series.

I am trying to make a decision between getting a full 5.1 system in the CM series (CM 9 or 10; CMC2, and CM5) or
the better setup 805d to use as mains now with the HTM4 center. The 805d's will move to the surrounds when I save up enough to get some front speakers in the 800 line.

I have fallen in love with the 802 series of speakers since I first heard them over 10 years ago. The $15,000 price tag is a bit hard to justify, but they do sound pretty!! I have heard both the 805d and the CM9 speakers in the same store, but not in the same room with the same source material.

I am looking for some first hand opinions on the 800 series of speakers. I love the sound of the 800 series and I don't mind going with the smaller bookshelf versions for the time being. Perhaps I can just eat tuna fish all year and afford to get the 802's later on.

The other question I have is which center speaker would better match the 802's? There is a $2500 price jump from the HTM4 to the larger HTM2. The Room I have now is my living room and is roughly 20 x 15 with 2 openings to other rooms and a bay window as well as a fireplace. Room treatments etc will come later to help tune the system. Part of me feels like the CM series would be "good enough" for a while, but I am sure I would still lust after the 802's! If there was a time lapse of 1-2 years between the 805 and 802 purchase, would there be a dramatic difference in materials/sound. ie would it be better to wait until I could afford the entire 5 speaker setup and get the whole thing at one time? Thanks for your input and thoughts.

I would like to hear opinions from people that have the CM series (to see if you still have upgraditis) as well as people with any of the 800 series. Perhaps the 803's will be good enough given my room dimensions.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your responses.
For your budget I would go with CM series and take the advise from Class addict about dedicated circuit amps in your house.
post #15664 of 17813
For the record, I am not a believer in voodoo and snake oil when it comes to audio. You will find no audophile fuses or $600 power cables in my system. 14 ga Monoprice speaker wire, or beldin is more than enough. I would think the better money would be with better speakers. Spending $3000 extra just to get a classe amp and the CM series, will not produce a better sound than a well made amp with enough juice to drive the system running an 800 series set up. My living room is directly above an unfinished basement, so running 20 amp circuits can be done with some ease.

I do appreciate the debate and thank everyone for their input. Still scratching my head on which way to go.
post #15665 of 17813
I had Emotiva XPA 5 on my 802d and htm1d and it's the only amp I've wanted to rip out and replace almost instantly.

Not a great sound quality, bit grainy and, well, not very refined, but more over it could not handle the dynamics of movies at or near reference and would constantly clip.

I now use Ada 2502 amps which are still 200w but with tons more current. These run the 802d past reference with out distortion or fatigue.

Swerve Emotiva if you can.
post #15666 of 17813
My advice is save for the 802d. You will only long for the 802 after the 805. I have seen second hand 805d for fairly low in price. I feel you are correct in focusing on speakers first. Then get a well built amp. I encourage you to buy emo (because their return policy) and take it to your local highend dealer and compare for yourself. You can't lose with their return policy. If you are a fan of music don't skimp on a nice dac in either your prepro/preamp and or a player.
post #15667 of 17813
Just curious but what is the rated current on the two models you mentioned?
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I had Emotiva XPA 5 on my 802d and htm1d and it's the only amp I've wanted to rip out and replace almost instantly.

Not a great sound quality, bit grainy and, well, not very refined, but more over it could not handle the dynamics of movies at or near reference and would constantly clip.

I now use Ada 2502 amps which are still 200w but with tons more current. These run the 802d past reference with out distortion or fatigue.

Swerve Emotiva if you can.
post #15668 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morfious View Post

The $7500 decision Full CM system or 805d + HTM4 and save more,

Between a promotion at work and my year end bonus I have some extra cash this year to devote to my home theater setup. I have an Emotiva UMC-200 Preamp and plan to get their XPA-5 Amplifer (200 w x 5) to power the system. Folks on the Emotiva forums have this setup and it works just fine with both the B&W CM and 800 series.

I am trying to make a decision between getting a full 5.1 system in the CM series (CM 9 or 10; CMC2, and CM5) or
the better setup 805d to use as mains now with the HTM4 center. The 805d's will move to the surrounds when I save up enough to get some front speakers in the 800 line.

I have fallen in love with the 802 series of speakers since I first heard them over 10 years ago. The $15,000 price tag is a bit hard to justify, but they do sound pretty!! I have heard both the 805d and the CM9 speakers in the same store, but not in the same room with the same source material.

I am looking for some first hand opinions on the 800 series of speakers. I love the sound of the 800 series and I don't mind going with the smaller bookshelf versions for the time being. Perhaps I can just eat tuna fish all year and afford to get the 802's later on.

The other question I have is which center speaker would better match the 802's? There is a $2500 price jump from the HTM4 to the larger HTM2. The Room I have now is my living room and is roughly 20 x 15 with 2 openings to other rooms and a bay window as well as a fireplace. Room treatments etc will come later to help tune the system. Part of me feels like the CM series would be "good enough" for a while, but I am sure I would still lust after the 802's! If there was a time lapse of 1-2 years between the 805 and 802 purchase, would there be a dramatic difference in materials/sound. ie would it be better to wait until I could afford the entire 5 speaker setup and get the whole thing at one time? Thanks for your input and thoughts.

I would like to hear opinions from people that have the CM series (to see if you still have upgraditis) as well as people with any of the 800 series. Perhaps the 803's will be good enough given my room dimensions.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your responses.

Well if you have your heart set on 802's I can say from experience settling for something that will ultimately do the job is just that, settling and it's a safe bet you will not be happy until get what you want. If your intention is to put together a surround system then I would either wait, save and get the 802's to start things off or get the 805's now along with a HTM2, do not get a HTM4 if you intend to get 802's down the road, an HTM4 would be throwing money out the window in my opinion because it will need replaced by the HTM2 when you get the 802's. Something else to consider, if you want an all 800 system and are picky about the speakers being from the same generation then you need to weigh the possibility that the D2's will come to the end of their production life perhaps as early as 2015, I can't see it happening next year so starting to buy now may put you into a generation gap before you can finish buying all 5 speakers i.e. some D2s and some D3s. If that's a concern and you have no intention to say finance 5 speakers then you could just keep saving until the new series comes along. That'll take a heck of a lot of will power though smile.gif
post #15669 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post

Where is any evidence any of this is true? This sounds near identical to the propaganda Monster uses to sell their surge protectors. Do you have any data on clean power and how Classe or the like handles power vs. Emotiva? I'm not specifically trying to pick a fight or start another amp battle, but..... I don't fell comfortable when people just say "the expensive one is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morfious View Post

For the record, I am not a believer in voodoo and snake oil when it comes to audio. You will find no audophile fuses or $600 power cables in my system. 14 ga Monoprice speaker wire, or beldin is more than enough. I would think the better money would be with better speakers. Spending $3000 extra just to get a classe amp and the CM series, will not produce a better sound than a well made amp with enough juice to drive the system running an 800 series set up. My living room is directly above an unfinished basement, so running 20 amp circuits can be done with some ease.

I do appreciate the debate and thank everyone for their input. Still scratching my head on which way to go.

Let's be sure everyone understands I don't care what brand of amp you use as long as it's capable of properly driving the speaker thats connected to it. I prefer Classe, but theres plenty of amp options. I also support buying used quality amps, I started with Classe CAM-400 that were dealer demos that I paid $2,500 each. I think thats a great deal for the same amps used at Abbey Road Studios and you would be hard pressed to find a higher quality per watt in that range. I now have Classe Omega's. My main reason for "suggesting" Classe is the relationship between them and B&W, and in my opinion the B&W speakers get peak performance from Classe. However thats just an opinion and I support any amp option chosen as long as it can handle the load.

I'm not suggesting upgraded powers cords. I am telling you it's a law of physics that if you don't have a large enough circuit feeding an amp under peak conditions the voltage will drop to the circuit, the amp will run hotter, and in extreme conditions the circuit breaker will trip. In addition anything else on the circuit Will contribute noise. If you understand power you will not be debating me on this, if you don't feel free to be stupid. All residential electronics runs on alternating current, known as AC voltage. These circuits have a hot leg, a neutral leg, and a ground. Whatever is plugged in an outlet completes the circuit. That means the hot leg goes into the device and continues out the neutral leg back to the breaker panel Therefore anything in the circuit adds noise. Most audio systems pick up this noise via the ground. If all of the dedicated circuits are on the same phase in the panel, the same neutrals, and same grounds the chance of noise is reduced. Thats not saying it will be eliminated just minimized. When using subwoofers, many times noise turns up, and can be tricky to get rid of. My system has no noise because I did the electrical circuits properly. In addition my power cords are capable of a full 20 amp load and have true 20 amp plugs on them. I'm not saying it sounds better, I am saying the same law of physics apply to load carrying capability.

I know there's a large group of members that think upgraded wires is snake oil and that's fine. Debate on. One other area I can assure you is an issue, is power circuit noise from the utility company and voltage fluctuation under peak demand. At my home in the summer, or cold winter days the incoming voltage varies from as high as 125 volts to as low as 108 volts. I don't think power conditioners are the answer, I do believe power regenerators are a benefit. I won't say it makes the system sound better, but I can say it provides constant voltage with lower THD to my system. I don't have my amps, or subs on the power regenerator, All the other electronics are. The results from a voltage, THD, are absolutely measurable and are not hocus locus.

See Ya,
Steve
post #15670 of 17813
I think the hocus pocus I thought they were saying is the marketing side. That this copper is better then this copper because it is flat and has a nice logo. All what you mentioned is truthful in supplying less noise. There is no differences there.

Kind of what GNC does with their marketing. This supplement can make you look like x. When x is actually on steroids and the actual supplement does nothing more then y at a third of the cost.
post #15671 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morfious View Post

For the record, I am not a believer in voodoo and snake oil when it comes to audio. You will find no audophile fuses or $600 power cables in my system. 14 ga Monoprice speaker wire, or beldin is more than enough. I would think the better money would be with better speakers. Spending $3000 extra just to get a classe amp and the CM series, will not produce a better sound than a well made amp with enough juice to drive the system running an 800 series set up. My living room is directly above an unfinished basement, so running 20 amp circuits can be done with some ease.

I do appreciate the debate and thank everyone for their input. Still scratching my head on which way to go.
Posting in this forum, of course you're going to get a variety of opinions, and of course many want you to spend the max on the 800 series. I started with the 600 series 2, then bumped up to CDM NTs (CDM 9NT, CDM CNT, and CDM 1NT), and then on to 800 series (805S, HTM4S, SCMS). If you have cash to spare, then of course go for the best you can afford. If you want to spend some decent cash but still afford your mortgage and other hobbies (as I do), then go for a very nice mid-level system...the CM series will do you just fine. I'm in the process now of 'downgrading' from 5.1 back to 2.1, as I'm using my $ for other things. I am still more than happy with a pair of 805S and a sub, and enjoy my movies and music just as much. If I were starting again from scratch, I'd go with the CM9 or 10 (with sub) along with an integrated amp and be done with it. Listen to everyone's advice, but do what you can comfortably handle in the long run...that's my $.02.
post #15672 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShockFett View Post

I think the hocus pocus I thought they were saying is the marketing side. That this copper is better then this copper because it is flat and has a nice logo. All what you mentioned is truthful in supplying less noise. There is no differences there.

Kind of what GNC does with their marketing. This supplement can make you look like x. When x is actually on steroids and the actual supplement does nothing more then y at a third of the cost.

I agree that many of the upgraded cables are not worth the investment. I do think there's value in upgrading from bare minimum , specially for better shielding and wire size. However purer copper, oxygen free, blah blah . Money better spent in other areas.

In regards to the gear one buys...get what works within your plan.

See Ya,
Steve
post #15673 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post


Let's be sure everyone understands I don't care what brand of amp you use as long as it's capable of properly driving the speaker thats connected to it. I prefer Classe, but theres plenty of amp options. I also support buying used quality amps, I started with Classe CAM-400 that were dealer demos that I paid $2,500 each. I think thats a great deal for the same amps used at Abbey Road Studios and you would be hard pressed to find a higher quality per watt in that range. I now have Classe Omega's. My main reason for "suggesting" Classe is the relationship between them and B&W, and in my opinion the B&W speakers get peak performance from Classe. However thats just an opinion and I support any amp option chosen as long as it can handle the load.

I'm not suggesting upgraded powers cords. I am telling you it's a law of physics that if you don't have a large enough circuit feeding an amp under peak conditions the voltage will drop to the circuit, the amp will run hotter, and in extreme conditions the circuit breaker will trip. In addition anything else on the circuit Will contribute noise. If you understand power you will not be debating me on this, if you don't feel free to be stupid. All residential electronics runs on alternating current, known as AC voltage. These circuits have a hot leg, a neutral leg, and a ground. Whatever is plugged in an outlet completes the circuit. That means the hot leg goes into the device and continues out the neutral leg back to the breaker panel Therefore anything in the circuit adds noise. Most audio systems pick up this noise via the ground. If all of the dedicated circuits are on the same phase in the panel, the same neutrals, and same grounds the chance of noise is reduced. Thats not saying it will be eliminated just minimized. When using subwoofers, many times noise turns up, and can be tricky to get rid of. My system has no noise because I did the electrical circuits properly. In addition my power cords are capable of a full 20 amp load and have true 20 amp plugs on them. I'm not saying it sounds better, I am saying the same law of physics apply to load carrying capability.

I know there's a large group of members that think upgraded wires is snake oil and that's fine. Debate on. One other area I can assure you is an issue, is power circuit noise from the utility company and voltage fluctuation under peak demand. At my home in the summer, or cold winter days the incoming voltage varies from as high as 125 volts to as low as 108 volts. I don't think power conditioners are the answer, I do believe power regenerators are a benefit. I won't say it makes the system sound better, but I can say it provides constant voltage with lower THD to my system. I don't have my amps, or subs on the power regenerator, All the other electronics are. The results from a voltage, THD, are absolutely measurable and are not hocus locus.

See Ya,
Steve

No noise in your system? Maybe "minimal" noise, but no system has NO noise.

And who cares? Your power amp converts the AC to DC and removes the noise on the AC in the process.
post #15674 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post

I agree that many of the upgraded cables are not worth the investment. I do think there's value in upgrading from bare minimum , specially for better shielding and wire size. However purer copper, oxygen free, blah blah . Money better spent in other areas.

In regards to the gear one buys...get what works within your plan.

See Ya,
Steve

Better shielding - how does that help in the power cord or in speaker cables?
post #15675 of 17813
I have 802D2 fronts with a Parasound Halo A 51 driving them. The speakers sound good but i don't have a lot of experience with gear. Sometimes the treble can sound harsh but other times spectacular. I think with D2 series diamond tweeter, you need good recording and pretty good DACs (I use TI Burr-Brown 192 kHz/32-Bit DACs inside my Integra DHC-80.3 pre-pro). Also, I need to treat my room and do more REW analysis.

If i had my druthers, I would get Classe monoblocks but i am trying to build my 5.2 system so i need to focus the expenditures.

I have 804D2 on order for the side surrounds and will post pics when they arrive next week (my Christmas present). The Parasound will drive them as well. It is 400W x 5 into 4 ohms. It can get toasty in the summer.

I was also worried about trying to buy 5 speakers from same line (D2) before the line got discontinued in favor of the new line (D3). I will get the big D2 center in the spring sometime, maybe with my tax return. Then I will be set - except for the monoblocks frown.gif

(personally, I think the rear surrounds in a 7.2 system can be anything - they fire into cartilage)
Edited by bao01 - 12/22/13 at 6:04pm
post #15676 of 17813
Unfortunately, the Parasound Halo A 51 has a "Made in Taiwan" sticker on back. I know i shouldn't care and it probably makes no difference (but i peeled it off and replaced with Made in Italy smile.gif ). What i do know is that it is beautiful, it is HUGE, it is built like a tank and it weighs a god awful amount. It is a two person job to take up the stairs.

post #15677 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Better shielding - how does that help in the power cord or in speaker cables?

Same way shielding works on most electronics. It's why virtually all electronics has notices of interference and FCC notices for interference. Mall this stuff emits RF noise. Kinda amazing how much guys want to debate this stuff. All I'm saying is 12 gauge wire can carry a load with less voltage drop and more current than a 14 gauge wire. I'm also saying a wire with minimal shielding will reduce noise in the system compared to wires with no shielding.

I realize my system is not noise free, what I said is my system has no noise.... such as hum because of my dedicated powers circuits. See below for 1 area I do have noise.

I agree that AC voltage is converted to DC voltage. However a power regenerator takes AC voltage to DC voltage and then back to AC voltage, however the voltage is now steady and much lower THD. You can debate the benefits if you want. However it would be hard to dispute that steady voltage with reduced noise is not a better option. Specially in areas with power issues such as mine. I see lots of failed electrical components due to a lack of voltage, or voltage spikes, I see lots of issues with electric components due to power leakage, I.e. 120 volt power wire leaks enough noise that low voltage circuits like 24 volt thermostat wiring picks up that noise causing control circuits to fault. The simple fix? Shielded cable!!!!

Those same inexpensive power cords that come with the typical electronics has little or no shielding...I'm not talking about high end power cords. I'm talking slightly better ones that have a little bigger wire for amps, and all gear having minimally sheielded cable to the extent they don't leak RF and transmit noise to other gear' and the other gear has decent power cable so it does not pick up noise.

A great example. My 1 year old Mac Mini transmits noise via USB to my preamp when listening to iTunes. I've connect 2 other computers and they don't cause the noise. My point is there's many ways to introduce noise into a system. Main difference? The other 2 computers are laptops with no power cords connected. I'm working on how to get rid of this noise. I'm looking for an alternate power cord, and will try moving my Mac Mini to see if that helps. Compared to a laptop my Mac Mini has minimal shielding

AVS and other similar Forums have many instances where noise issues that can be heard are discussed, and solutions sought, and line voltage is an area of the system that rarely gets looked at but is real and most of my suggestions are do it yourself low cost options.

See Ya,
Steve
post #15678 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post

Same way shielding works on most electronics. It's why virtually all electronics has notices of interference and FCC notices for interference. Mall this stuff emits RF noise. Kinda amazing how much guys want to debate this stuff. All I'm saying is 12 gauge wire can carry a load with less voltage drop and more current than a 14 gauge wire. I'm also saying a wire with minimal shielding will reduce noise in the system compared to wires with no shielding.

So what about all those miles of unshielded power cabling from the power plant to your house, and the dozens of feet of unshielded power cabling running around your house? And the shielding in power cables and speaker wire is *not* the same as shielding in most electronics. Both power and speaker wire are relatively high voltage, high current, low impedance and are fairly immune to picking up interference.
Quote:
I realize my system is not noise free, what I said is my system has no noise.... such as hum because of my dedicated powers circuits. See below for 1 area I do have noise.

I bet it still has a tiny bit of hum that could be measured with test equipment, but I grant you it might not be audible.
Quote:
I agree that AC voltage is converted to DC voltage. However a power regenerator takes AC voltage to DC voltage and then back to AC voltage, however the voltage is now steady and much lower THD. You can debate the benefits if you want. However it would be hard to dispute that steady voltage with reduced noise is not a better option. Specially in areas with power issues such as mine. I see lots of failed electrical components due to a lack of voltage, or voltage spikes, I see lots of issues with electric components due to power leakage, I.e. 120 volt power wire leaks enough noise that low voltage circuits like 24 volt thermostat wiring picks up that noise causing control circuits to fault. The simple fix? Shielded cable!!!!

Lower THD where? In the AC going into the amp, or in the amp output? I'm guessing you mean into the amp, and again, it's a moot point because the power supply in the amp takes care of it.

As for 120V power leaking noise that causes control circuits to fault? How are they faulting?
Quote:
Those same inexpensive power cords that come with the typical electronics has little or no shielding...I'm not talking about high end power cords. I'm talking slightly better ones that have a little bigger wire for amps, and all gear having minimally sheielded cable to the extent they don't leak RF and transmit noise to other gear' and the other gear has decent power cable so it does not pick up noise.

Even if they pick up noise at the power cable, it will be removed at the AC to DC conversion, right?
Quote:
A great example. My 1 year old Mac Mini transmits noise via USB to my preamp when listening to iTunes. I've connect 2 other computers and they don't cause the noise. My point is there's many ways to introduce noise into a system. Main difference? The other 2 computers are laptops with no power cords connected. I'm working on how to get rid of this noise. I'm looking for an alternate power cord, and will try moving my Mac Mini to see if that helps. Compared to a laptop my Mac Mini has minimal shielding

USB may well be prone to noise, but USB is not power cables or speaker cables. It's high speed and low power, as opposed to low speed and high power.
Quote:
AVS and other similar Forums have many instances where noise issues that can be heard are discussed, and solutions sought, and line voltage is an area of the system that rarely gets looked at but is real and most of my suggestions are do it yourself low cost options.

True, but shielding on the speaker cables is almost never the solution, nor is additional shielding on the power cable, nor is a thicker power cable.
Quote:
See Ya,
Steve
post #15679 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post

...A great example. My 1 year old Mac Mini transmits noise via USB to my preamp when listening to iTunes. I've connect 2 other computers and they don't cause the noise. My point is there's many ways to introduce noise into a system. Main difference? The other 2 computers are laptops with no power cords connected. I'm working on how to get rid of this noise. I'm looking for an alternate power cord, and will try moving my Mac Mini to see if that helps. Compared to a laptop my Mac Mini has minimal shielding

How does this noise manifest audibly to you?
post #15680 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

So what about all those miles of unshielded power cabling from the power plant to your house, and the dozens of feet of unshielded power cabling running around your house? And the shielding in power cables and speaker wire is *not* the same as shielding in most electronics. Both power and speaker wire are relatively high voltage, high current, low impedance and are fairly immune to picking up interference.

Debating the impact of voltage power lines that are un-shielded is a debate I'm not ready to open. I've years around t working on large HVAC equipment, office building, the people who operate this stuff. Many have big Heath issues including cancer doe to the exposure, cell hones are big concern too...cooking your brains. I have lots of experience in high voltage wiring, up to 4160 v main feeds. The switch geat
I bet it still has a tiny bit of hum that could be measured with test equipment, but I grant you it might not be audible. I agree, you are correct. However I've a lot to get that number as low as possible. The lowest my dealer has ever seen for the amount of gear I have connected and automated via Crestron

Lower THD where? In the AC going into the amp, or in the amp output? I'm guessing you mean into the amp, and again, it's a moot point because the power supply in the amp takes care of it.

Im talking lower THD for equipment other than the amps. I use power regenerator to feed everything but amps, steady low THD power does make a difference for preamps, cd, DVD, ble ray, phono. It's also easier on their power supplies that can be an expensive repair. We get lots of lightning strikes and storms. I can turn off all circuits Fed by my power regenerator in a storm via my cell phone. It nice to know I can easily isolate my gear.

Another great example is commercial computer data processing centers. Most regenerate their power, they spend big bucks on dedicated circuits, reducing noise to keep their systems running a peak perforce..


Lets be clear...speaker wire is not in my discussion, so leave it out. My sole focus is line voltage. You continue to ignore my discussion about dedicated circuits. In addition, my main discussion about shielding relate to noise picked by other gear and not amps. I have nothing in my amp circuits but the amps, dedicated circuits and power cords. However amp power cords dross over USB wires, XLR wires, digital wires, etc and do leak


My concern is minimizing what other noise components pick up from the leakage if not shielded. In my case typical home with 120 volt Romex in the wall, properly installed and a 24 volt thermostat wire next to it. 18 gauge insulated wire, normal wire used. However thermostats are starting to be smart capable, they use the same low volt wire as a communication bus now. Transmit signals to the controls. About 25% of the time we have to replace the low voltage wire with shielded because the 120 volt Romex is running next to it and causing RF interference, and faulting the system with errors.

As for 120V power leaking noise that causes control circuits to fault? How are they faulting? See above for answer


Even if they pick up noise at the power cable, it will be removed at the AC to DC conversion, right? For the most part yes related to the amp. I'm talking about noise leaked cable and components that don't convert voltage to DC.. Most system have dozens of cables running around and crossing each other. Lots of opportunity to pick up noise.
USB may well be prone to noise, but USB is not power cables or speaker cables. It's high speed and low power, as opposed to low speed and high power.
True, but shielding on the speaker cables is almost never the solution, nor is additional shielding on the power cable, nor is a thicker power cable.

Last comments, a larger wire can carry a bigger load with less voltage loss. I'm not saying what wire to use, I am saying in case of amplifiers that can draw well over 20 amps via short bursts could benefit with a quaintly power cord rated for 20 amps, connected to an actual 20 amp outlet and fed directly by a 20 amp breaker with right sized wire based on the length of the run.. The power cord itself should have some type of metal foil type wrap to reduce rf leakage to other components and thus also help reduce picking noise from other components. The foil these cables use should tie to the ground plug on the cable.

See Ya,
Steve
Edited by ClasseAddict - 12/22/13 at 9:10pm
post #15681 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

How does this noise manifest audibly to you?

Digital stutter or squeal for 1-3 seconds and then it goes away. Very repeatable. Hook up another laptop, no noise, no noise from front USB using iPad. I don't have the noise isolated within the Mac Mini yet. Open to suggestions.

See Ya,
Steve
post #15682 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post

Digital stutter or squeal for 1-3 seconds and then it goes away. Very repeatable. Hook up another laptop, no noise, no noise from front USB using iPad. I don't have the noise isolated within the Mac Mini yet. Open to suggestions.

See Ya,
Steve

I use a. Mac Mini as well, and it is dead quiet, this is why I ask.

I use Pure Music, JRiver, and will soon be trying Amarra, and have it set up for dedicated/bit perfect playback, so perhaps there is something else amiss, but it does not sound like power. Perhaps device contention on USB...
post #15683 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post



A great example. My 1 year old Mac Mini transmits noise via USB to my preamp when listening to iTunes. I've connect 2 other computers and they don't cause the noise. My point is there's many ways to introduce noise into a system. Main difference? The other 2 computers are laptops with no power cords connected. I'm working on how to get rid of this noise. I'm looking for an alternate power cord, and will try moving my Mac Mini to see if that helps. Compared to a laptop my Mac Mini has minimal shielding

AVS and other similar Forums have many instances where noise issues that can be heard are discussed, and solutions sought, and line voltage is an area of the system that rarely gets looked at but is real and most of my suggestions are do it yourself low cost options.

See Ya,
Steve

Its a bad example, i and many use mac-mini's (i use pure-music too) and they are silent. It just means you have a problem.

We have stable power in our country and very few people use things in the power line when using hifi. My system is fully balanced simply because of the devices i picked but in the end there is only one test i do. Turn on the system put in on 0dB (ref) turn it to source (say may mini) and see if i can hear noise from the speakers at say 10cm from the tweeters.

My system has no 'noise' in that test and thats all i care about, i guess all the power parts in my units are just good enough and not made for 25cents and are doing their job. Converting AC to DC for use in digital systems is not that hard if they spend a few bucks on it instead on the 3cm thick nameplate.

Daniel.
post #15684 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmt2000 View Post

Yes. The face plate connecting HF and LF was the culprit. Once I made sure that the connection to the speaker cable is tight, I am back to Normal. Audessey now shows the Front as" Full Range"cool.gif

Who said Audio is simple. Everyone will come after me with pitchforks if I say this but for all the hassle I go through, I sometimes wonder if I should have stayed with "BOSE" lifestyle and not returned it after just 2 days.tongue.gif

Glad it was a simple fix. The good things in life generally take work. I'm sure a few months down the road the hassle of getting your setup going will seem worth it compared to a the sound you would be getting from the Bose "system".
post #15685 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morfious View Post

The $7500 decision Full CM system or 805d + HTM4 and save more,

Between a promotion at work and my year end bonus I have some extra cash this year to devote to my home theater setup. I have an Emotiva UMC-200 Preamp and plan to get their XPA-5 Amplifer (200 w x 5) to power the system. Folks on the Emotiva forums have this setup and it works just fine with both the B&W CM and 800 series.

I am trying to make a decision between getting a full 5.1 system in the CM series (CM 9 or 10; CMC2, and CM5) or
the better setup 805d to use as mains now with the HTM4 center. The 805d's will move to the surrounds when I save up enough to get some front speakers in the 800 line.

I have fallen in love with the 802 series of speakers since I first heard them over 10 years ago. The $15,000 price tag is a bit hard to justify, but they do sound pretty!! I have heard both the 805d and the CM9 speakers in the same store, but not in the same room with the same source material.

I am looking for some first hand opinions on the 800 series of speakers. I love the sound of the 800 series and I don't mind going with the smaller bookshelf versions for the time being. Perhaps I can just eat tuna fish all year and afford to get the 802's later on.

The other question I have is which center speaker would better match the 802's? There is a $2500 price jump from the HTM4 to the larger HTM2. The Room I have now is my living room and is roughly 20 x 15 with 2 openings to other rooms and a bay window as well as a fireplace. Room treatments etc will come later to help tune the system. Part of me feels like the CM series would be "good enough" for a while, but I am sure I would still lust after the 802's! If there was a time lapse of 1-2 years between the 805 and 802 purchase, would there be a dramatic difference in materials/sound. ie would it be better to wait until I could afford the entire 5 speaker setup and get the whole thing at one time? Thanks for your input and thoughts.

I would like to hear opinions from people that have the CM series (to see if you still have upgraditis) as well as people with any of the 800 series. Perhaps the 803's will be good enough given my room dimensions.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your responses.

I don't have "upgradeitis" with my CM speakers (CM9/CMC2/C5). But there is no way I would be able to afford the 800 series, so they aren't on my radar and my brain doesn't have that nagging question of "should I have settled?". The CM's ended up being the best in the price range I could spend in. I have heard the 800 diamonds, but never let myself seriously listen to them because they just aren't something I can afford. Honestly it sounds like you really want the 800's and it would probably be a mistake to "settle". If you end up buying the setup over time, a good set of used speakers can fill out your lineup if B&W changes things in the interim.
post #15686 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post

I don't have "upgradeitis" with my CM speakers (CM9/CMC2/C5). But there is no way I would be able to afford the 800 series, so they aren't on my radar and my brain doesn't have that nagging question of "should I have settled?". The CM's ended up being the best in the price range I could spend in. I have heard the 800 diamonds, but never let myself seriously listen to them because they just aren't something I can afford. Honestly it sounds like you really want the 800's and it would probably be a mistake to "settle". If you end up buying the setup over time, a good set of used speakers can fill out your lineup if B&W changes things in the interim.

I think the CM series is an awesome speaker choice. Great bang for the buck, I'm very impressed with them.

See Ya,
Steve
post #15687 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Its a bad example, i and many use mac-mini's (i use pure-music too) and they are silent. It just means you have a problem.

We have stable power in our country and very few people use things in the power line when using hifi. My system is fully balanced simply because of the devices i picked but in the end there is only one test i do. Turn on the system put in on 0dB (ref) turn it to source (say may mini) and see if i can hear noise from the speakers at say 10cm from the tweeters.

My system has no 'noise' in that test and thats all i care about, i guess all the power parts in my units are just good enough and not made for 25cents and are doing their job. Converting AC to DC for use in digital systems is not that hard if they spend a few bucks on it instead on the 3cm thick nameplate.

Daniel.


Daniel-I think your tests are a great way to test your system. My system too is fully balanced too where possible using XLR connections. Not everybody has a HT setup, and many 2 channel systems don't have subwoofers. My system has 3 subs, 2 for the mains and 1 dedicated for HT only in the rear of my room. One reason I've done so much on the incoming power side of my system is to avoid issues with my subs and noise caused by grounding issues. I'm using both low level and high level inputs with my subs. This introduces challenges many members don't have to deal with. Grounding is the biggest issue many systems face related to noise or hum.

Why is it a bad example on my Mac Mini? My Mac Mini is introducing noise into my system. I'm not sure what the issue is yet, but there's something wrong. This Mac mini has never been used for anything but music. It has no other applications on it, no email, nothing but music from the day it came out of the box new. I plan to take it apart soon and try to diagnose where the issue lies? I suspect its something to do with the USB board. What else might introduce noise over the music, and only at the beginning when I first switch to the Mac Mini from any other source? The Mac Mini can be playing already but switched to that source and I switch to it and the noise goes for about 1-3 seconds. Do the same thing with 2 different laptops and nada. Same USB cable. This problem could have been there from the time the Mac Mini came out of the box, I've only recently started listening to it.

Texas has some of the worst lightning storms you can imagine. A few years ago lightning stuck between my home and my neighbors. It was strong enough that it turned on remote control toys! Took out most of the electronics in his house, and a few in mine.

To be honest, many of the discussions on this board, emails and electronic conversations are lost in translation. The discussion related to incoming power is real. I've dealt with electricity most of my life...related to HVAC systems, lighting, computer rooms, home automation. It's amazing how noise can get introduced into an electrical system. I've got expensive meters by Fluke and Testo that measures electric circuit performance, so I'm not just blowing smoke.

One of the primary reasons I use a power regenerator is the ability to turn everything off remotely with my cell phone. The exception is my amps and subwoofers which have plug directly into my dedicated outlets. It gives me the ability to turn everything off during storms without having to unplug it, it allows me to save energy, and it provides stable power with less noise than I would have otherwise. I can print out reports showing incoming voltage and THD, and outgoing voltage and THD. Theres a big difference. Take it for whats its worth or not. Another reason I like the power regenerator is over the years I've lost power supplies on a lot of my audio gear. Most of it related to power surges. I've got a large investment in my HT and audio system. I prefer to provide it with the cleanest most stable power I can, and do my best to protect it from power surges, and also low incoming voltage, plus do my best to reduce as much noise as possible. None of that relates to amps, nor speaker wires. I do however have dedicated breakers and circuits for my amps, along with power cables sized for 20 amps. That may not be necessary for many systems out there. However my Classe Omegas came with 20 amp plugs from Classe and I'm using commercial grade outlets for all outlets in my HT and Audio room. My Omegas can handle loads down to 1 ohm and deliver 2,000 watts to the speakers, and I'm going to make sure the incoming power can deliver everything my amps need. Many members of this forum have nice systems but 1 15 amp circuit feeding their entire system. It might not trip the breaker, but that does make it right. During those brief bursts of peak high and low notes...those amps go from idle to max output. If you were to measure the circuit under those conditions you would see the volts drop dramatically and amps rise dramatically. Why short change your system? Give it all the power it wants and needs! Be advised those 15 amp circuits may not have large enough wire to handle 20 amps, so some wire sizing has to be done, but its worth the effort. Please don't do anything with your electrical system if your not experienced, its something you need to be experienced to do yourself.

See Ya,
Steve

Last comment...my system, please excuse the dust on the speakers. I had just put a new wool rug in the room and it was shedding extremely:



AppleMark
post #15688 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClasseAddict View Post

Daniel-I think your tests are a great way to test your system. My system too is fully balanced too where possible using XLR connections. Not everybody has a HT setup, and many 2 channel systems don't have subwoofers. My system has 3 subs, 2 for the mains and 1 dedicated for HT only in the rear of my room. One reason I've done so much on the incoming power side of my system is to avoid issues with my subs and noise caused by grounding issues. I'm using both low level and high level inputs with my subs. This introduces challenges many members don't have to deal with. Grounding is the biggest issue many systems face related to noise or hum.

Why is it a bad example on my Mac Mini? My Mac Mini is introducing noise into my system. I'm not sure what the issue is yet, but there's something wrong. This Mac mini has never been used for anything but music. It has no other applications on it, no email, nothing but music from the day it came out of the box new. I plan to take it apart soon and try to diagnose where the issue lies? I suspect its something to do with the USB board. What else might introduce noise over the music, and only at the beginning when I first switch to the Mac Mini from any other source? The Mac Mini can be playing already but switched to that source and I switch to it and the noise goes for about 1-3 seconds. Do the same thing with 2 different laptops and nada. Same USB cable. This problem could have been there from the time the Mac Mini came out of the box, I've only recently started listening to it.

Texas has some of the worst lightning storms you can imagine. A few years ago lightning stuck between my home and my neighbors. It was strong enough that it turned on remote control toys! Took out most of the electronics in his house, and a few in mine.

To be honest, many of the discussions on this board, emails and electronic conversations are lost in translation. The discussion related to incoming power is real. I've dealt with electricity most of my life...related to HVAC systems, lighting, computer rooms, home automation. It's amazing how noise can get introduced into an electrical system. I've got expensive meters by Fluke and Testo that measures electric circuit performance, so I'm not just blowing smoke.

One of the primary reasons I use a power regenerator is the ability to turn everything off remotely with my cell phone. The exception is my amps and subwoofers which have plug directly into my dedicated outlets. It gives me the ability to turn everything off during storms without having to unplug it, it allows me to save energy, and it provides stable power with less noise than I would have otherwise. I can print out reports showing incoming voltage and THD, and outgoing voltage and THD. Theres a big difference. Take it for whats its worth or not. Another reason I like the power regenerator is over the years I've lost power supplies on a lot of my audio gear. Most of it related to power surges. I've got a large investment in my HT and audio system. I prefer to provide it with the cleanest most stable power I can, and do my best to protect it from power surges, and also low incoming voltage, plus do my best to reduce as much noise as possible. None of that relates to amps, nor speaker wires. I do however have dedicated breakers and circuits for my amps, along with power cables sized for 20 amps. That may not be necessary for many systems out there. However my Classe Omegas came with 20 amp plugs from Classe and I'm using commercial grade outlets for all outlets in my HT and Audio room. My Omegas can handle loads down to 1 ohm and deliver 2,000 watts to the speakers, and I'm going to make sure the incoming power can deliver everything my amps need. Many members of this forum have nice systems but 1 15 amp circuit feeding their entire system. It might not trip the breaker, but that does make it right. During those brief bursts of peak high and low notes...those amps go from idle to max output. If you were to measure the circuit under those conditions you would see the volts drop dramatically and amps rise dramatically. Why short change your system? Give it all the power it wants and needs! Be advised those 15 amp circuits may not have large enough wire to handle 20 amps, so some wire sizing has to be done, but its worth the effort. Please don't do anything with your electrical system if your not experienced, its something you need to be experienced to do yourself.

See Ya,
Steve

Last comment...my system, please excuse the dust on the speakers. I had just put a new wool rug in the room and it was shedding extremely:

Thats a fine looking system.

Like i stated we have stable power in our country (very regulated and mostly underground during transport). I can see why you want to take some steps not needed in other countries thats why i started there. I do think for many people their starting point is stable power and no extra steps are needed for audio quality concern. I do use a dedicated 240volts circuit for my audio but thats kind of normal in my country (we use 220/240 default and many circuits in a avg home).

On the mac mini the thing i was saying is something is wrong it should not be a source of noise, with ssd and digital out to the pre and/or a dac it should be a stable and low jitter thing. Hope you resolve that soon since its not normal.

We are in a B&W thread so we should be on topic, my only point is the only thing that matters for me is the end result (so the 'tweeter' test) i have no clue if all my balanced xlr or design helps/works. Maybe its other parts in my system that help the most i know my pre/pro and poweramp have large parts if their space dedicated to powerspupply and they do that for a reason. If i would live in Texas i would probably also attack the power problem and have guns to protect my shuff instead of a overpriced security system smile.gif.

Daniel.
post #15689 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Thats a fine looking system.

Like i stated we have stable power in our country (very regulated and mostly underground during transport). I can see why you want to take some steps not needed in other countries thats why i started there. I do think for many people their starting point is stable power and no extra steps are needed for audio quality concern. I do use a dedicated 240volts circuit for my audio but thats kind of normal in my country (we use 220/240 default and many circuits in a avg home).

On the mac mini the thing i was saying is something is wrong it should not be a source of noise, with ssd and digital out to the pre and/or a dac it should be a stable and low jitter thing. Hope you resolve that soon since its not normal.

We are in a B&W thread so we should be on topic, my only point is the only thing that matters for me is the end result (so the 'tweeter' test) i have no clue if all my balanced xlr or design helps/works. Maybe its other parts in my system that help the most i know my pre/pro and poweramp have large parts if their space dedicated to powerspupply and they do that for a reason. If i would live in Texas i would probably also attack the power problem and have guns to protect my shuff instead of a overpriced security system smile.gif.

Daniel.

Daniel-Thanks I agree!

Happy Holidays to All!

Steve
post #15690 of 17813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morfious View Post


The other question I have is which center speaker would better match the 802's? There is a $2500 price jump from the HTM4 to the larger HTM2.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your responses.

I am trying to make a decision between getting a full 5.1 system in the CM series (CM 9 or 10; CMC2, and CM5) or
the better setup 805d to use as mains now with the HTM4 center.

The other question I have is which center speaker would better match the 802's? There is a $2500 price jump from the HTM4 to the larger HTM2.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your responses.[/quote]

You have good taste. Just had same question between HTM2D2 and HTM4D. Bought the htm2d2 to go with my 803d fronts. Finally I can easily understand what Bane is saying. Listened to the htm4d and it's not a fair choice but the price difference explains it too.
Edited by wadeh911 - 12/23/13 at 2:25pm
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