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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 54

post #1591 of 17815
I was also thinking about getting the 705 to drive a 683 setup. Room is ~300ft2 but I doubt it would be playing at party levels (small kids).

Was thinking I would bi-amp down the road (used Rotel). Other choice would be keep the crap technics and wait to get a new Marantz (7002), although I was leaning to the Onkyo b/c of the sheer value.

Thoughts? Seems to be the same total cost.

Mike
post #1592 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_Strasse View Post

I was also thinking about getting the 705 to drive a 683 setup. Room is ~300ft2 but I doubt it would be playing at party levels (small kids).

Was thinking I would bi-amp down the road (used Rotel). Other choice would be keep the crap technics and wait to get a new Marantz (7002), although I was leaning to the Onkyo b/c of the sheer value.

Thoughts? Seems to be the same total cost.

Mike

Whatever you get, you could indeed add the Rotel to supplement your receiver. What some people do is use the receiver to power the rear speakers and center only but let a separate two channel amp power the fronts. That splits the power requirements, which lets the receiver work nearly half as hard.

Marantz and Onkyo make decent products, and you have to decide which one has the best feature set. Some people think Marantz stuff is a step above others in terms of sound quality, but I won't speculate whether that is true. I used to own a few Marantz components and they worked well/sounded fine. My current Onkyo has been solid so far, no complaints about its sound quality or its ability to fill my room with clean unclipped sound. I've seen some people report that a few Onkyos had "burned out" after a month or two, but my brother who had a Marantz 8001 also has his burn out (sparks/smoke and all) also. So no manufacturer is perfect.
post #1593 of 17815
I just bought a set of 805s and it sounded INCREDIBLE in the showroom, but at home I am QUITE disappointed with the sound quality!

They are placed on each side of my LCD with 43" between them (on their own stands), and I sit around 13 feet away. My room is like 16'*16'.

I am using Pioneer Elite 72TXV Receiver with 135watts/channel, which should be plenty of power for this (or maybe not), and they are connected with 12 or 14 gauage speaker wires (cant remember exactly) which are about 6' long.

So, here are the issues:

1. Not loud enough at mid volume?!
2. Highs are not as clear as I want
3. Doesn't go as low as I heard in showroom or as I would like them to go
4. The sound just is NOT as rich as the price was

Anything I can do, or should do to fix this? I am almost thinking of returning them, as it seems like it's not working in my room dyanmics. I also used the Pioneer MCACC setup and it lowered the lows on equalizer (-6db on 63Hz)... it sounded a bit clearer but lost depth and bass which is not exactly what I want.

Thanks!

PS. I am not using any sub, I listen to variety of music like Rock, Electronic, Pop, Acoustic, and movies...
post #1594 of 17815
How long have you had the speakers and what were you using before?Sometimes it's just a matter of getting used to the new speakers. I have N805s in my HT. My room is similar in size to yours and my seated position is about 13 feet from the speakers also. I'm using a Rotel 5-channel amp (120W per channel) for power. I rarely listen above 60 dB. I use a sub, so that may be a key factor. I've had this set-up for more than four years and I continue to be amazed.
Don't expect alot in the bass department with these speakers. I have my crossover to the sub set at 80. Maybe you're having buyer's remorse/sticker shock?
post #1595 of 17815
Thread Starter 
What were they hooked to in the showroom?
post #1596 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

I just bought a set of 805s and it sounded INCREDIBLE in the showroom, but at home I am QUITE disappointed with the sound quality!

They are placed on each side of my LCD with 43" between them (on their own stands), and I sit around 13 feet away. My room is like 16'*16'.

I am using Pioneer Elite 72TXV Receiver with 135watts/channel, which should be plenty of power for this (or maybe not), and they are connected with 12 or 14 gauage speaker wires (cant remember exactly) which are about 6' long.

So, here are the issues:

1. Not loud enough at mid volume?!
2. Highs are not as clear as I want
3. Doesn't go as low as I heard in showroom or as I would like them to go
4. The sound just is NOT as rich as the price was

Anything I can do, or should do to fix this? I am almost thinking of returning them, as it seems like it's not working in my room dyanmics. I also used the Pioneer MCACC setup and it lowered the lows on equalizer (-6db on 63Hz)... it sounded a bit clearer but lost depth and bass which is not exactly what I want.

Thanks!

PS. I am not using any sub, I listen to variety of music like Rock, Electronic, Pop, Acoustic, and movies...

Some thoughts. 43" is not enough separation for that speaker in my experience. When sitting 7' away from them, I felt that 65" separation was where it was sounding pretty balanced in terms of stereo field. Since you are 13' away, I would recommend about 7-9' of separation to start with to see if that improves things.

Play with toe-in a little as well, I found this to matter quite a bit in my room with hard-reflective surfaces.

Make sure the bridges are installed in the back of the speaker.

Also, I find spacing the speakers away from the wall behind them by at least 3' helped quite a bit in reducing boom and some deep nulls.
post #1597 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccur View Post

How long have you had the speakers and what were you using before?Sometimes it's just a matter of getting used to the new speakers. I have N805s in my HT. My room is similar in size to yours and my seated position is about 13 feet from the speakers also. I'm using a Rotel 5-channel amp (120W per channel) for power. I rarely listen above 60 dB. I use a sub, so that may be a key factor. I've had this set-up for more than four years and I continue to be amazed.
Don't expect alot in the bass department with these speakers. I have my crossover to the sub set at 80. Maybe you're having buyer's remorse/sticker shock?

I know about the bass... but the biggest thing is that -60 not audible at all, -40 starts very low, and you get to barely acceptable level at around -30ish. To get it loud enough to enjoy you have to set it up at -20 to -10 db, sometimes for real loud, gotto go to -5.

Not sure about buyer remorse/sticker... I appreciate and pay for nice things and got good ears and could hear the difference between M1, XT, 600 series, and 800 series very clearly (while my Dad couldn't)!

To answer the other question, in the showroom it was hooked up to Classe Amp! Totally different level of Amp... but I didn't think I needed that much power for bookshelves.
post #1598 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Some thoughts. 43" is not enough separation for that speaker in my experience. When sitting 7' away from them, I felt that 65" separation was where it was sounding pretty balanced in terms of stereo field. Since you are 13' away, I would recommend about 7-9' of separation to start with to see if that improves things.

Play with toe-in a little as well, I found this to matter quite a bit in my room with hard-reflective surfaces.

Make sure the bridges are installed in the back of the speaker.

Also, I find spacing the speakers away from the wall behind them by at least 3' helped quite a bit in reducing boom and some deep nulls.

Thanks a lot. My space is limited, so I can't really separate them as much... can move one speaker over for a listening session but gotto move it back (so I can get into my bedroom)!

They are fairly close to the wall, again for space constraints. I will try to move it away, it's basically sitting on the stand up against the wall (maybe 5" away).

There's also a very fundemental spacing issue, the left speaker is up against the balcony door, while right speaker is open on all sides! I will post a pic later.
post #1599 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

Thanks a lot. My space is limited, so I can't really separate them as much... can move one speaker over for a listening session but gotto move it back (so I can get into my bedroom)!

They are fairly close to the wall, again for space constraints. I will try to move it away, it's basically sitting on the stand up against the wall (maybe 5" away).

There's also a very fundemental spacing issue, the left speaker is up against the balcony door, while right speaker is open on all sides! I will post a pic later.

It's obvious to me that your room is far from ideal, it's not the speakers' fault at all. That is the one thing people forget about, what comes out of a speaker is affected by its environment. Reflections from walls, spacing, room echo, even the type of furniture you have in the room can ruin a good speaker.

You definitely do not want one speaker close to a wall and the other in free space. That is going to completely ruin your imaging, and cause early reflections that muddle the sound. You need at least two feet from a side wall. Also, the auto EQ of your receiver may not be doing it any favors, they work ok but can also mess things up. A lack of perceived bass could be caused by cancelling of bass waves inside your room, there are a lots of things that affect the sound. Try sitting in different locations and see if some of the bass comes back. If so, then you are sitting in a location where the bass is being cancelled out.

Lastly, if you aren't using a sub, make sure your receiver is set properly for no-sub operation. Your receiver should have done it right for you if you ran the calibration though
post #1600 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

Thanks a lot. My space is limited, so I can't really separate them as much... can move one speaker over for a listening session but gotto move it back (so I can get into my bedroom)!

They are fairly close to the wall, again for space constraints. I will try to move it away, it's basically sitting on the stand up against the wall (maybe 5" away).

There's also a very fundemental spacing issue, the left speaker is up against the balcony door, while right speaker is open on all sides! I will post a pic later.

Yeah a pic will help quite a bit when you get a chance. I had problems but once i made a paper 2-D floor plan model of my room with paper 2-D furniture, i found a way to make it work. When you listen to the speakers at the dealer, the speakers are typically well away from the walls and usually at least 6' apart.

The problem with separating them only by 40" is that there will be too narrow of a sound stage in the front. Not much left/right separation. My room is very small at 12.5'x11' with a full size bed, and I was able to manage, so hopefully when you get a floorplan posted, we can check out some alternatives. The way you set up the speakers in your room and where you put your listening chair is the most important factor in terms of the quality of sound that reaches your ear. I do not know of any speakers or electronics in that price range that can sound great or be made to sound great in a heavily compromised setup.
post #1601 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Yeah a pic will help quite a bit when you get a chance. I had problems but once i made a paper 2-D floor plan model of my room with paper 2-D furniture, i found a way to make it work. When you listen to the speakers at the dealer, the speakers are typically well away from the walls and usually at least 6' apart.

The problem with separating them only by 40" is that there will be too narrow of a sound stage in the front. Not much left/right separation. My room is very small at 12.5'x11' with a full size bed, and I was able to manage, so hopefully when you get a floorplan posted, we can check out some alternatives. The way you set up the speakers in your room and where you put your listening chair is the most important factor in terms of the quality of sound that reaches your ear. I do not know of any speakers or electronics in that price range that can sound great or be made to sound great in a heavily compromised setup.

Here's the layout... the scale is probably not right.



I live in a small condo so my options are limited as you can see... The blue circles are bar stools for Kitchen counter and the rest is self explanatory.
post #1602 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

Here's the layout... the scale is probably not right.



I live in a small condo so my options are limited as you can see... The blue circles are bar stools for Kitchen counter and the rest is self explanatory.

Any dimensions? That sofa looks quite huge...
post #1603 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Any dimensions? That sofa looks quite huge...

Sofa is not huge... it's long. I don't have the exact measurement now (at work), but here's what I remmeber:

Room is around 16' wide (to the Kitchen) and 16' long.

Sofa is around 9'-10' long

The distance from speakers to Mid-sofa is 13'

The balcony is 48" wide, TV is 37".. distance between speakers 43".
post #1604 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

Sofa is not huge... it's long. I don't have the exact measurement now (at work), but here's what I remmeber:

Room is around 16' wide (to the Kitchen) and 16' long.

Sofa is around 9'-10' long

The distance from speakers to Mid-sofa is 13'

The balcony is 48" wide, TV is 37".. distance between speakers 43".

OK, so basically 16x16 including the balcony up until the kitchen.
post #1605 of 17815
Thats far from ideal. If i were you i would try different ways to put the furniture. I have my sofa with the short end against a side wall and space both behind and infront right now. But of course, it depends on the sofa, etc.
post #1606 of 17815
Here is a first stab. Let me know if this might work. I think it would result in much better sound quality. Of course, you will want some heavy drapes for the windows. This should also allow for an appropriate (maximum in my opinion) viewing distance from the 37" display.
LL
post #1607 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Here is a first stab. Let me know if this might work. I think it would result in much better sound quality. Of course, you will want some heavy drapes for the windows. This should also allow for an appropriate (maximum in my opinion) viewing distance from the 37" display.

WOW, thanks a lot mate. Great forum here with a lot of support!

I have to see if that's possible, I don't really think so from aesthetic point of view and GF point of view

The windows overlook the harbour and it's kind of dumb to cover them up, the whole point of the apartment is for the view (otherwise could have got a bigger place).

Now, apart from changing furniture around, is there any kind of speaker that work better in my room than the other? For instance, a satellite/sub system? or smaller XT2? I can trade these in and change em to something else, although very reluctant since I bought these at half price because of being demo model!

What about adding a sub, bi-amping (for more power), or a new amp? I know they definately don't fix the room... but just wondering if it can help in some way or another... I am still gonna try to see what can I do within the room to find a better location for speakers. If I had smaller speakers, coulld possibly just mount them on the ceiling where you are pointing (both sides of windows) to get a good imaging.
post #1608 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

WOW, thanks a lot mate. Great forum here with a lot of support!

I have to see if that's possible, I don't really think so from aesthetic point of view and GF point of view

The windows overlook the harbour and it's kind of dumb to cover them up, the whole point of the apartment is for the view (otherwise could have got a bigger place).

Now, apart from changing furniture around, is there any kind of speaker that work better in my room than the other? For instance, a satellite/sub system? or smaller XT2? I can trade these in and change em to something else, although very reluctant since I bought these at half price because of being demo model!

What about adding a sub, bi-amping (for more power), or a new amp? I know they definately don't fix the room... but just wondering if it can help in some way or another... I am still gonna try to see what can I do within the room to find a better location for speakers. If I had smaller speakers, coulld possibly just mount them on the ceiling where you are pointing (both sides of windows) to get a good imaging.

I'm gonna be frank with ya. I don't know much about sat/sub combos in terms of tiny speakers, but from my experience, nothing can overcome a heavily compromised listening position and speaker layout. I think you would be very let down by downgrading from your 805s to a tiny speaker. With that said, if maintaining a good view was of great importance, I would lose the LCD and set up a projector. The projector screen goes away when you are not watching movies (put the LCD in the bedroom) and you get beautiful scenery while still being able to listen to your music. The two speakers shouldn't be too intrusive (i don't think) but thats something you would have to test our yourself along with your significant other!
post #1609 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

I'm gonna be frank with ya. I don't know much about sat/sub combos in terms of tiny speakers, but from my experience, nothing can overcome a heavily compromised listening position and speaker layout. I think you would be very let down by downgrading from your 805s to a tiny speaker. With that said, if maintaining a good view was of great importance, I would lose the LCD and set up a projector. The projector screen goes away when you are not watching movies (put the LCD in the bedroom) and you get beautiful scenery while still being able to listen to your music. The two speakers shouldn't be too intrusive (i don't think) but thats something you would have to test our yourself along with your significant other!

Thanks man... best is to take pics of my place so you guys can see what I mean...

I actually started researching B&W M1s first, before listening to 805s and finding them incredible! I kind of compromised my lack space to get the better quality sound and now I am not really enjoying it with these limitations.

Thanks again for all your help, I will play around with positioning to see if I can get a better sound...

To summarize:

- The overall consensus is that my issue is NOT the speakers, or my receiver, but it's my room and positioning... right?
post #1610 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

Thanks man... best is to take pics of my place so you guys can see what I mean...

I actually started researching B&W M1s first, before listening to 805s and finding them incredible! I kind of compromised my lack space to get the better quality sound and now I am not really enjoying it with these limitations.

Thanks again for all your help, I will play around with positioning to see if I can get a better sound...

To summarize:

- The overall consensus is that my issue is NOT the speakers, or my receiver, but it's my room and positioning... right?

Yeah, the 805s are just a huge jump over the M1 (which is a decent speaker on its own but just outclassed).

The issue most likely is the room and positioning. These speakers you auditioned in another space and they sounded better, so the biggest variable is the room and setup. Of course, make sure the speaker wires are connected correctly.

Another thing you could try is to put the speakers along the wall on the bottom of my diagram (spaced 7-9' apart) with at least 2' from the front of the speaker to the wall behind them. The sofa would be directly across from them dividing up the room. I personally wouldnt care for that arrangement (I don't think) but it is another possibility. The idea is that you just need to give your speakers a bit more breathing room and get your sofa away from the wall.
post #1611 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Yeah, the 805s are just a huge jump over the M1 (which is a decent speaker on its own but just outclassed).

The issue most likely is the room and positioning. These speakers you auditioned in another space and they sounded better, so the biggest variable is the room and setup. Of course, make sure the speaker wires are connected correctly.

Another thing you could try is to put the speakers along the wall on the bottom of my diagram (spaced 7-9' apart) with at least 2' from the front of the speaker to the wall behind them. The sofa would be directly across from them dividing up the room. I personally wouldnt care for that arrangement (I don't think) but it is another possibility. The idea is that you just need to give your speakers a bit more breathing room and get your sofa away from the wall.

Thanks again... will try that and will report. I also contacted the dealer I bought it from and they're gonna send one guy to see if he can set it up for me better (for free) so I'd get some pro help as well!
post #1612 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

Thanks again... will try that and will report. I also contacted the dealer I bought it from and they're gonna send one guy to see if he can set it up for me better (for free) so I'd get some pro help as well!

Now, that is pretty sweet.

Good luck, and I hope it works out!
post #1613 of 17815
Alexb,

Your biggest problem is the room, the TV in the center and the avr. You need a real amp, the avr will not play with the 805s. Your new found friend will now like to sell you amp that will do the job. Get a couple of mono blocks from Outlaw or a stere amp and use the avr as a pre pro and the the remainder of the channels.
post #1614 of 17815
ok so im in the process of finizing my speakers, i kept going back and forth on kef, b&w, and def. tech.. well there is no local dealer within driving distance which has a b&w demo setup. i have called every dealer but they just wont setup any demos. so now i need comparisons with the new 600 series and the cm series. im trying to decide and can get a in home 30 day demo but chances are im not gonna call back the dealer to take them out but i want to be sure i got the better of the two.

i know i should demo them in store but that simply is not an option for me. i'm going to be powering them with a yamaha rx-v3800 if that helps any. most of my use will be for tv, movies, and about 20% music.


any advice and experience you guys have had with these models would be great, just please dont tell me to demo them because im already upset that this is not an option.
post #1615 of 17815
Hi Guys! I'm a proud new owner of a set of used B&W 604s2's. I'm hoping that you guys could help me decide on a center speaker and satellite speakers to match.

Currently running a pioneer DV600-AV DVD player > Sony 3000es > B&W604s2 (bi-wired). I'm mainly using this setup as a music playback system, but would like to incorpate it to use as a HT setup as well.

suggestions?

thanks in advance!!
Tommy
post #1616 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

so now i need comparisons with the new 600 series and the cm series. im trying to decide and can get a in home 30 day demo but chances are im not gonna call back the dealer to take them out but i want to be sure i got the better of the two.

i know i should demo them in store but that simply is not an option for me. i'm going to be powering them with a yamaha rx-v3800 if that helps any. most of my use will be for tv, movies, and about 20% music.

I'll give you my opinion. First, one thing I found with B&W is that the integrated receivers from Yamaha and Premier didn't seem to drive them as hard as they should have, despite their Wattage ratings. This was especially apparent on the CM series, which are less efficient than the 600 series. I use a Rotel and have no problems playing them very loud. But my higher "rated" wattage Yamaha receiver could not power them as loud, nor as clear.

Now, I compared the 685 & 686 to the CM1. I only looked at the bookshelf speakers. I looked at these after narrowing my choices from Def Tech, Paradigm, and a couple others.

Once volumes were equalized, I found the CM1 to have slightly more clarity in the upper midrange. It seemed just a little more crisp. That was about all it had going for it sound-wise. Looks-wise, the CM seems like a better made speaker than the 600 series.

But, after switching back and forth between the 685 & CM1, I ended up liking the lower response of the 600 series, along with the overall very smooth response. It felt warmer and I liked the sound better overall with my type of music (mostly rock/indie rock) and movies. The 686 was similar to the CM1 with slightly less clarity in that upper midrange.

The thing is, the 685 can play as a stand alone speaker. The 686 or CM1 will really need a subwoofer to play 2ch music.

Anyway, I went with the 685. After hours of listening I just liked their sound better. I'm very happy with my decision.
post #1617 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

ok so im in the process of finizing my speakers, i kept going back and forth on kef, b&w, and def. tech.. well there is no local dealer within driving distance which has a b&w demo setup. i have called every dealer but they just wont setup any demos. so now i need comparisons with the new 600 series and the cm series.

Since you have no way of demoing them, you going to have to take everybody's opinion on face value, which really sucks as a way to pick out a speaker.

But here's my $0.01

The CM series is a good speaker, the CM1 is suited to a smaller room, and the CM7 is quite satisfying in a medium to large room. Both requite a good beefy receiver to do them justice, the beefier the better they are. I really like how the CM's tender to render music, they just sound natural and lush. They may not be the most accurate speakers around, but I look forward to putting on music on the CM1s.

I wouldn't touch most Def Tech with a ten foot pole, I haven't heard one that I really liked yet. The larger towers are ok, but my mind kept constantly wandering every time I heard them, not a good sign.

KEF, I haven't heard much of recently, but I have like many of their speakers in the past, but I won't speculate how the iQ series sounds like. My trusty friend is big on the new Reference series, and he's the guy that got me into the CM's in the first place.

As for 600 versus CM, you are paying a premium for the CM's due to the fact that 1) Made in UK 2) real wood finish. The 600's aren't tuned as tight as the CM's due to the lighter cabinet quality, and more aggressive tuning (slightly more forward sound). They do sound different enough that some people will have a definite preference if they heard them side by side, but I think they are good value. I think if you are looking for HT mainly, the 600's offer more sound quality for the $. For music, the CM's just are sweeter.
post #1618 of 17815
thanks.

i know it really sucks that i cant demo them. i have been calling every shop in the area and none will put up a demo or have one available. it's amazing how these shops will sell you these speakers but wont let you hear them first.
post #1619 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

thanks.

i know it really sucks that i cant demo them. i have been calling every shop in the area and none will put up a demo or have one available. it's amazing how these shops will sell you these speakers but wont let you hear them first.

Not sure where you live, but I have never been into a B&W dealer that didn't have the full line (outside of prestige) available for audition.
post #1620 of 17815
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

thanks.

i know it really sucks that i cant demo them. i have been calling every shop in the area and none will put up a demo or have one available. it's amazing how these shops will sell you these speakers but wont let you hear them first.

If they do not allow you to demo, ask if they have a 30-day money back guarantee, no questions asked policy.
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