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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 555

post #16621 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

RodS has Bryston 28Bsst2s for his 800s, if I am correct. Class AB and truly world class.

That was my point.

Would the bass from the subs be more musical, tighter, punchier, etc., if the subs are fed with the same exact high-end amps (like Bryston 28Bsst2s) that these speakers are being fed? biggrin.gif

The $15K Focal Grande Utopia subwoofer is passive/unpowered, which allows you to use your own high-end amps.

I would like to see B&W offer a passive/unpowered subwoofer which would allow you to use your own high-end amps.

Again, imagine the dual 10" woofer bass cabinet of the 800D2. They are very musical, punchy, and tight, right? They are being fed with the likes of Classe and Rotel, etc.? biggrin.gif

Now turn that dual 10" woofer bass cabinet of the 800D2 into a passive/unpowered subwoofer which would allow you to use amps from Classe, Rotel, etc. biggrin.gif

I guess if I were a billionaire, I could just buy a bunch of 800D2 to use just as subwoofers. That would be eccentric. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 2/22/14 at 8:18am
post #16622 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

1) Some people think that high-end amps from the likes of McIntosh, Classe, Mark Levinson, Krell, Bryston, etc., sound more musical than class-D pro amps.
2) All internally powered subs use internal class-D pro plate amps.
3) Some people think that most subs just don't sound as musical as tower speakers in the bass (being powered by the likes of McIntosh, Classe, Mark Levinson, Krell, Bryston, etc.).
4) If the subs are powered by the likes of McIntosh, Classe, Mark Levinson, Krell, Bryston, etc., would they sound as musical as tower speakers in the bass?

Yes to 1, 2, 3,

4 good question?
post #16623 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Yes to 1, 2, 3,

4 good question?

I'm just thinking crazy.

How would you feel if B&W placed class-D and switching pro plate amps inside your 800D2 and all speakers and you had no choice about which amps you could use? eek.gif

Is that a crazy thought? biggrin.gif

Am I just out of control? biggrin.gif
post #16624 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post


I guess if I were a billionaire, I could just buy a bunch of 800D2 to use just as subwoofers. That would be eccentric. biggrin.gif

Nah, use your money and get a bunch of Wilson Thor's Hammers smile.gif or a bunch of Focal Sub Utopia's (running numerous sets in a stacked configuration) that way either option (Wilson or Focal) already present you with subs in which you have to provide your own amps. Now I suppose if you feel 10" drivers are more musical then 13", 15" or 18" then I suppose you could then go the 800D2 route smile.gif
post #16625 of 17845
A quick question for the group. Once your system is calibrated, if you were to change the crossover frequency for a set of speakers would that warrant a re-calibration?
post #16626 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

A quick question for the group. Once your system is calibrated, if you were to change the crossover frequency for a set of speakers would that warrant a re-calibration?
No need for re-calibration just for changing XO (from 40Hz to 80Hz for example).
post #16627 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

Nah, use your money and get a bunch of Wilson Thor's Hammers smile.gif or a bunch of Focal Sub Utopia's (running numerous sets in a stacked configuration) that way either option (Wilson or Focal) already present you with subs in which you have to provide your own amps. Now I suppose if you feel 10" drivers are more musical then 13", 15" or 18" then I suppose you could then go the 800D2 route smile.gif

No, I just love the Marlan Head. biggrin.gif

Love it.
post #16628 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

No, I just love the Marlan Head. biggrin.gif

Love it.

LOL...Fair enough, it does act like the preverbal moth to a flame biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

No need for re-calibration just for changing XO (from 40Hz to 80Hz for example).

Thanks
post #16629 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

I have yet to find dealer who has 800 series in stock. They are always shipped on order, unless you talk about buying demo units. Expect discount between 10 and 20% for B&W products.

Yes it was the low end of your range and I was hoping for the upper end. Realistically I knew that was unlikely but really shooting for the middle. Truly my heart is not in it as its a singular hobby, my wife and daughter could care less. Its just been a long winter and you get tired of being stuck inside and convince yourself to take the plunge. I have always wanted the 802 or in more recent years the 803. Not sure the 804D is a huge upgrade over the CM10.Today its sunny and warmer here and I couldn't care less what is stuck in a dark theater. I would probably have to get the black so my wife wouldn't notice they are not my NHT any longer.
post #16630 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffg8 View Post

This is a dealer I have a relationship with going back over 20 years. I had been in twice recently and looked at and listened to speakers. I called him and we discussed the price. Its more difficult when your just talking about one item, albeit a large ticket one. Past sales have been big projects with lots of product and labor etc. He did offer a discount, but I just felt it was the minimal one. It makes it more difficult when they don't stock it. Less pressure on them to move an item. However my thought it should be easier as they won't have anything in it, just order it and its sold. I even mentioned I would be looking elsewhere at other items to imply "don't miss your chance".

I found the same thing. I told my dealer what my plan was (pair of 802D2, HTM2, pair of 804D2) and we worked out a deal assuming i would buy all 5 speakers from him over a few months time period. If i was not buying 5 speakers, the price for each one would have gone up. If a dealer sees you are serious and intend to buy quite a few items, they may work harder to keep your business. If they think you will just buy one item then they may not work as hard to meet you in the middle.

Then again, profit is profit. If you walk out the door and don't return, he/she has lost that profit. All they had to do was order the item - not that much work.
post #16631 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

That was my point.

Would the bass from the subs be more musical, tighter, punchier, etc., if the subs are fed with the same exact high-end amps (like Bryston 28Bsst2s) that these speakers are being fed? biggrin.gif

The $15K Focal Grande Utopia subwoofer is passive/unpowered, which allows you to use your own high-end amps.

I would like to see B&W offer a passive/unpowered subwoofer which would allow you to use your own high-end amps.

Again, imagine the dual 10" woofer bass cabinet of the 800D2. They are very musical, punchy, and tight, right? They are being fed with the likes of Classe and Rotel, etc.? biggrin.gif

Now turn that dual 10" woofer bass cabinet of the 800D2 into a passive/unpowered subwoofer which would allow you to use amps from Classe, Rotel, etc. biggrin.gif

I guess if I were a billionaire, I could just buy a bunch of 800D2 to use just as subwoofers. That would be eccentric. biggrin.gif

You mean 150,000!
post #16632 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

You mean 150,000!

No, the Grande Utopia towers may cost that much, gut the Utopia standalone passive subwoofer is only about $15,000.
post #16633 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

LOL...Fair enough, it does act like the preverbal moth to a flame biggrin.gif

The Marlan Head is hypnotic. That thing has magic or something. eek.gif
post #16634 of 17845
Subwoofers are great with class D amps.

With revealing speakers, some amps definitely sound better than others. You dont have to spend a lot or get "the latest model".

Go investigate amplifier design by folks like Nelson Pass / First Watt / Pass Labs and you will notice that a master designer can even start prediciting how an amp will sound based on the specifc meausurement of the individual transistors.

Amps DO sound better than one another particularly if you are using the right speakers to demonstrate this effect. I compared my pass labs XA30.5 and crown XLS 2000 class D amp and there is simply no comparison. The xls is obviously terrible for my speakers and can be picked out easily from the Pass amp at almost any volume level in normal listening.
post #16635 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

I have yet to find dealer who has 800 series in stock. They are always shipped on order, unless you talk about buying demo units. Expect discount between 10 and 20% for B&W products.

Do you mean expect 10-20% discount for demo products, or for newly ordered products?
post #16636 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Subwoofers are great with class D amps.

With revealing speakers, some amps definitely sound better than others. You dont have to spend a lot or get "the latest model".

Go investigate amplifier design by folks like Nelson Pass / First Watt / Pass Labs and you will notice that a master designer can even start prediciting how an amp will sound based on the specifc meausurement of the individual transistors.

Amps DO sound better than one another particularly if you are using the right speakers to demonstrate this effect. I compared my pass labs XA30.5 and crown XLS 2000 class D amp and there is simply no comparison. The xls is obviously terrible for my speakers and can be picked out easily from the Pass amp at almost any volume level in normal listening.

So speakers are not great with class-D amps, but subwoofers are great with class-D amps.

So if class-D amps are not musical for speakers, why are class-D amps musical for subs?

Wouldn't your Pass Labs amp produce more musical, tighter, punchier bass driving the sub?

Seems like double standard or favoritism. biggrin.gif

So the subwoofer is like the stepchild and gets some lowly class-D pro plate amp, but your speakers get the Pass Labs. Life is just not fair. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 2/22/14 at 11:33am
post #16637 of 17845
Class D amps have had issues with upper frequencies.
post #16638 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Class D amps have had issues with upper frequencies.

You mean class-D amps don't measure flat from 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.1dB with less than 0.1% THD?

The Audio Critic and other places (Harman's engineers) have measured class-D amps and they measure every bit as flat and accurate as other amps from 20Hz-20kHz.

Or do you mean regardless of the measurements, class-D amps just don't sound musical subjectively in the upper frequencies?

Maybe class-D amps don't sound musical in the lower frequencies either. That's why a lot of people complain that subs just don't sound as musical as the bass from towers.

I mean if they don't sound good in the upper frequencies, why would they sound great in the lower frequencies where it is the MOST DEMANDING of amps?

We all know that the lower frequencies require the most power and produces the most distortion.

I've heard more people complaining about subwoofers (class-D amp in lower frequencies) NOT sounding musical than people complaining about class-D amps not sounding musical in the trebles.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 2/22/14 at 11:50am
post #16639 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielrg View Post

Do you mean expect 10-20% discount for demo products, or for newly ordered products?

new orders
post #16640 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

You mean class-D amps don't measure flat from 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.1dB with less than 0.1% THD?

The Audio Critic and other places (Harman's engineers) have measured class-D amps and they measure every bit as flat and accurate as other amps from 20Hz-20kHz.

Or do you mean regardless of the measurements, class-D amps just don't sound musical subjectively in the upper frequencies?

Are you sure class-D amps don't sound musical in the lower frequencies too?

I've heard more people complaining about subwoofers (class-D amp in lower frequencies) NOT sounding musical than people complaining about class-D amps not sounding musical in the upper frequencies.
I am certainly not an expert here but more recent versions have addressed a lot of the higher frequency issues but some people still have issues and it may be related to harmonics. I do believe switching power supplies are the way of the future if not the amp portion, just not many matching the best class A or AB designs yet.

Of course you have to believe there can be differences in the way solid state amps sound which is a whole can of worms and then some.
post #16641 of 17845
Posted a separate thread but also figured i would try here...

Does anyone have any good ideas to un-push the dome on my nautilus (802N) tweeter? Not sure how this happened (oddly no kids coming forward) but wondering if there is a DIY way to restore the tweeter shape without a professional repair. Thanks in advance for any help!

post #16642 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffg8 View Post

Yes it was the low end of your range and I was hoping for the upper end. Realistically I knew that was unlikely but really shooting for the middle. Truly my heart is not in it as its a singular hobby, my wife and daughter could care less. Its just been a long winter and you get tired of being stuck inside and convince yourself to take the plunge. I have always wanted the 802 or in more recent years the 803. Not sure the 804D is a huge upgrade over the CM10.Today its sunny and warmer here and I couldn't care less what is stuck in a dark theater. I would probably have to get the black so my wife wouldn't notice they are not my NHT any longer.

Going out on a limb here, and likely a few of you will quickly saw it off.....

Having listened to 802D's and 803D's with all of the genres of music I love, the best choice for me was the 803D's for one reason.....Rock and Roll sounded much better while jazz and classical had minor differences. The addition of dual subs has me thinking I am set for years to come. Do not miss the opportunity just because of a 5% price difference.

With that said, for me the 803D's allowed me to rock when in the mood, or listen to John Coltrane or zoot sims or Bach when in those moods. YMMV .
post #16643 of 17845
Hi All-
I am in the process of slowly upgrading my AV system, considering a used CT7.4 for the center. I have a pair of 602s for the fronts and am wondering if the 7.4 will work well with them or will it be overkill? (The 602s will be replaced at some point but it could be a while). Everything is powered by a Marantz SR7002. Thanks for any input!
post #16644 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Subwoofers are great with class D amps. With revealing speakers, some amps definitely sound better than others. You dont have to spend a lot or get "the latest model". Go investigate amplifier design by folks like Nelson Pass / First Watt / Pass Labs and you will notice that a master designer can even start prediciting how an amp will sound based on the specifc meausurement of the individual transistors.

Amps DO sound better than one another particularly if you are using the right speakers to demonstrate this effect. I compared my pass labs XA30.5 and crown XLS 2000 class D amp and there is simply no comparison. The xls is obviously terrible for my speakers and can be picked out easily from the Pass amp at almost any volume level in normal listening.

I am looking at the PASS LABS XA30.5 to drive a pair of Sonus Faber how does it sound there are no dealers where I am frown.gif
post #16645 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expletive View Post

Posted a separate thread but also figured i would try here...

Does anyone have any good ideas to un-push the dome on my nautilus (802N) tweeter? Not sure how this happened (oddly no kids coming forward) but wondering if there is a DIY way to restore the tweeter shape without a professional repair. Thanks in advance for any help!


It cost $100 to replace just order a new one from B&W
post #16646 of 17845
Ok here is a question for those of you out there Anaolg junkies biggrin.gif

So I just retrieved many LPs from my dad's cellar, and want to give them a spin as he doesn't want them! Many of them look brand new from the 60s and 70s they have not been played for over 30 years!

I don't want to spend a fortune but want to see how they compare to SACDs! I love surround sound music so I doubt these would do it for me but who knows? What turn table would you recommend! Again I don't want to spend a fortune!
post #16647 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Ok here is a question for those of you out there Anaolg junkies biggrin.gif

So I just retrieved many LPs from my dad's cellar, and want to give them a spin as he doesn't want them! Many of them look brand new from the 60s and 70s they have not been played for over 30 years!

I don't want to spend a fortune but want to see how they compare to SACDs! I love surround sound music so I doubt these would do it for me but who knows? What turn table would you recommend! Again I don't want to spend a fortune!

That's a funny comment, don't want to spend a fortune, coming from a guy with 802D's all around. Used turntables with cartridges in the 300 to 600 range on Audiogon and eBay. Do you have a phono preamp in your system?
post #16648 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Ok here is a question for those of you out there Anaolg junkies biggrin.gif

So I just retrieved many LPs from my dad's cellar, and want to give them a spin as he doesn't want them! Many of them look brand new from the 60s and 70s they have not been played for over 30 years!

I don't want to spend a fortune but want to see how they compare to SACDs! I love surround sound music so I doubt these would do it for me but who knows? What turn table would you recommend! Again I don't want to spend a fortune!

Don't want to spend a fortune? There are many < $500. Marantz TT42P, $359. Don't even think about it, just buy & start listening to music! smile.gif

In the $1-2K range the Rega RP3, Clearaudio Concept or Marantz TT15S1. The Marantz is actually built by Clearaudio and comes with a fantastic cartridge (This retails separately for almost $900). There is some economies of a scale at play there since it is hard to piece together anything close for the price.
post #16649 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeh911 View Post

That's a funny comment, don't want to spend a fortune, coming from a guy with 802D's all around. Used turntables with cartridges in the 300 to 600 range on Audiogon and eBay. Do you have a phono preamp in your system?

I am glad you find it funny, actulally the front speakers are B&W 800Diamonds wink.gif the surrounds are 802Diamond biggrin.gif

Anyway this is an experiment I am doing I love having all my music on my Mac
post #16650 of 17845
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

I have yet to find dealer who has 800 series in stock. They are always shipped on order, unless you talk about buying demo units. Expect discount between 10 and 20% for B&W products.

10% is the norm 20% is a good deal! after that it's gravy biggrin.gif
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