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post #16681 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View PostNo need to spend that kind of money on powering the surrounds. I am from the camp that all modern day amps sound the same. I used to feel completely different until my local dealer setup a blind a/b test using some ubber expensive McIntosh amps and some cheaper Marantz, and Sunfire amps, as well as a Behringer pro-amp, all level matched amps, powering a pair of B&W 800D's. Long story short, none of us could tell any difference in sound quality, nor could we pick which amp was which amp. This totally changed my out look on amps. I used to argue all day long about the sound quality differences between amps, but, the reality is that any random, modern day amplifier will sound the same. Which makes sense because all an amp does is amplify the signal. It should not add, nor take away anything from that signal. Now granted, 15 years ago, before technology and amplifier components were at the level they are now, this may not have been the same result.

What I am getting at, is that you don't have to spend that much on an amp, especially one that is for powering the surrounds. Just buy an Emotiva, or a nice pro-amp. I personally would recommend three Behringer iNuke1000dsp amps for your LCR's, each ran in bridge mode. They have a built in Dsp that can EQ your speakers for getting the very best response! Then you could but one more iNuke1000dsp for each pair of surrounds.

I know that I will likely he flamed to death over this post, but I would be willing to bet you money that you could not tell the difference between an expensive Parasound amp versus a much cheaper Emotiva. These Behringer iNukes are also just as good as those Parasound amps, but, being that they come with Dsp and the ability to EQ each speakers responce individually, I would bet you my house that the end result with the INuke1000dsp amps would be better than the Parasound!

Take this for what it's worth, but considering the Behringer iNuke1000dsp amps are only $230 each, why don't you buy one or two to try out and compare for yourself? If you don't think they sound as good as what your already have, (or better due to having the built in EQ ability), then you could easily resell them for around $200 each and loose only a few bucks!

Interesting I did the same thing with 80D2s and McIntosh vs Classe CA-M600 and the difference was staggering!

 

Any way

 

 

"Enter the Behringer NU1000 DSP amplifier. This amplifier that is inexpensive, light weight, and powerful. What makes this amp unique is that it has a surprisingly powerful DSP complete with a Windows configuration utility (no Mac version as far as I can tell). This amp, however, has an incredibly loud fan"
 

  • 51%2BPz09GD-L._SX522_.jpg

 

 

post #16682 of 17907
The  Behringer NU1000 is rated to 4 ohms.... Isn't that a problem with 8 ohm speakers?
And this will match up with my anthem amp?
Bill
post #16683 of 17907

Any one tried this PLINIUS SA-103?

 


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post #16684 of 17907
it doesn't have enough heat sinks rolleyes.gif
post #16685 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Any one tried this PLINIUS SA-103?


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Looks like it could kick some ass with attitude! Bandaids not included. My first PS Audio power regenerator came with gloves to handle it, kinda like wrestling a porcupine! It was built like a tank!

See Ya,
Steve
post #16686 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

No need to spend that kind of money on powering the surrounds. I am from the camp that all modern day amps sound the same. I used to feel completely different until my local dealer setup a blind a/b test using some ubber expensive McIntosh amps and some cheaper Marantz, and Sunfire amps, as well as a Behringer pro-amp, all level matched amps, powering a pair of B&W 800D's. Long story short, none of us could tell any difference in sound quality, nor could we pick which amp was which amp. This totally changed my out look on amps. I used to argue all day long about the sound quality differences between amps, but, the reality is that any random, modern day amplifier will sound the same. Which makes sense because all an amp does is amplify the signal. It should not add, nor take away anything from that signal. Now granted, 15 years ago, before technology and amplifier components were at the level they are now, this may not have been the same result.

What I am getting at, is that you don't have to spend that much on an amp, especially one that is for powering the surrounds. Just buy an Emotiva, or a nice pro-amp. I personally would recommend three Behringer iNuke1000dsp amps for your LCR's, each ran in bridge mode. They have a built in Dsp that can EQ your speakers for getting the very best response! Then you could but one more iNuke1000dsp for each pair of surrounds.

I know that I will likely he flamed to death over this post, but I would be willing to bet you money that you could not tell the difference between an expensive Parasound amp versus a much cheaper Emotiva. These Behringer iNukes are also just as good as those Parasound amps, but, being that they come with Dsp and the ability to EQ each speakers responce individually, I would bet you my house that the end result with the INuke1000dsp amps would be better than the Parasound!

Take this for what it's worth, but considering the Behringer iNuke1000dsp amps are only $230 each, why don't you buy one or two to try out and compare for yourself? If you don't think they sound as good as what your already have, (or better due to having the built in EQ ability), then you could easily resell them for around $200 each and loose only a few bucks!

I'm not sure I would want my mains getting a signal that has passed through multiple instances of D/A A/D conversions. Amp's sounding the same/different argument aside, I prefer not to over-process. I like the non-dsp version for mains and dsp for subs if needed.
post #16687 of 17907
Ok here is what I find

- The new 800 Diamond is physically the same in terms of size, shape and weight as the outgoing 800D.

Both are 46 and a half inches tall by nearly 18 inches wide and 25 inches deep. Both sit atop a cast aluminum plinth that houses the speaker's crossover.


PHYSICAL CHANGES

OUTSIDE
- The new 800 Diamond is fifty pounds lighter than the 800D at 225 pounds
- New finish option Piano Black Gloss
- Aluminum accent rings on the outside surrounds of the midrange driver and diamond tweeter.
- Speaker grilles utilize magnets both in the speaker's cabinet as well as on the grilles themselves
- Non-metallic paint on the tweeter and midrange heads to compliment new Piano Black Gloss finish

INSIDE:
- One inch diamond tweeter has an new Quad Magnet Motor System for the tweeter
- New surround materials for the tweeters as per Bowers & Wilkins!
- The dual 10-inch bass drivers:
New Dual Magnet Motor Systems
New smaller dustcap assembly

Per B&W the new Dual Magnet Motor System ensures that the driver's movements are more linear and smooth thus resulting in less distortion. The smaller dust-cap, allows the drivers to play smoother and at a higher frequency, thus creating a more seamless transition between the midrange and bass drivers.

- New crossovers use Silver/gold/oil Mundorf capacitors
- Speaker terminals have been designed in-house and made from oxygen free copper
- Retail price changed from $23,000 to $24,000 a pair.

UNCHANGED
- Six-inch yellow Kevlar midrange driver
- Same frequency response at 32Hz to 28kHz plus or minus three dB on axis.
- Crossed over at the same frequencies, 350Hz and four kHz
- Sensitivity rating of 90dB into a nominal eight-Ohm load
post #16688 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Ok here is what I find

- The new 800 Diamond is physically the same in terms of size, shape and weight as the outgoing 800D.

Both are 46 and a half inches tall by 18 inches wide and 25 inches deep. Both sit atop a cast aluminum plinth that houses the speaker's crossover.


PHYSICAL CHANGES

OUTSIDE
- The new 800 Diamond is fifty pounds lighter than the 800D at 225 pounds
- New finish option Piano Black Gloss
- Aluminum accent rings on the outside surrounds of the midrange driver and diamond tweeter.
- Speaker grilles utilize magnets both in the speaker's cabinet as well as on the grilles themselves
- Non-metallic paint on the tweeter and midrange heads to compliment new Piano Black Gloss finish

INSIDE:
- One inch diamond tweeter has an new Quad Magnet Motor System
- New surround materials for the tweeters as per Bowers & Wilkins!
- The dual 10-inch bass drivers: New Dual Magnet Motor Systems & New smaller dustcap assembly
- New crossovers use Silver/gold/oil Mundorf capacitors
- Speaker terminals have been designed in-house and made from oxygen free copper
- Retail price changed from $23,000 to $24,000 a pair.

UNCHANGED
- Six-inch yellow Kevlar midrange driver
- Same frequency response at 32Hz to 28kHz plus or minus three dB on axis.
- Crossed over at the same frequencies, 350Hz and four kHz
- Sensitivity rating of 90dB into a nominal eight-Ohm load
post #16689 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post

The  Behringer NU1000 is rated to 4 ohms.... Isn't that a problem with 8 ohm speakers?
And this will match up with my anthem amp?
Bill

No, it can do 8 ohms just fine.
post #16690 of 17907
Perhaps I was unlucky, but I tried some Behringer and Crown pro amps about a year and a half ago, and they were not pleasing at all. Higher noise floor for sure, and a very strident sound.

I also had tried Wyred4Sound mono blocks and multi channel amps. Much better, but still a perceptible noise floor and not very natural to my ears and in my setup.

The requirements for a pro amp are, I would think, fairly different than a home environment.
post #16691 of 17907
Other options of amps then???

Bill
post #16692 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post

Other options of amps then???

Bill

Well don't take my word alone - I think a lot of these pro amps are available on Amazon - free prime shipping and if from amazon directly, you can always return them if your not convinced.
post #16693 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post

Other options of amps then???

Bill
Since you are looking to power surrounds and surround backs that would be 803 or 804Ds, I would suggest Parasound Halo. Realistically, as long as you are not talking front L&R, Emotiva would probably do fine.
post #16694 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Since you are looking to power surrounds and surround backs that would be 803 or 804Ds, I would suggest Parasound Halo.

Yes they are outstanding biggrin.gif
post #16695 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

So speakers are not great with class-D amps, but subwoofers are great with class-D amps.

So if class-D amps are not musical for speakers, why are class-D amps musical for subs?

Wouldn't your Pass Labs amp produce more musical, tighter, punchier bass driving the sub?

Seems like double standard or favoritism. biggrin.gif

So the subwoofer is like the stepchild and gets some lowly class-D pro plate amp, but your speakers get the Pass Labs. Life is just not fair. biggrin.gif

Class D amps acoustic signature is simply not audible at subwoofer levels. They have no negative impact on low bass frequencies that i can think of.

Our ears are vastly more sensitive to the midrange of sound frequencies and therefore this is where specialized amps (depending on your speaker type) seem to make the mpst difference.

You can use a class A or AB amp for subs but with the huge subs available these days, class D makes absolute sense in cost effectiveness and provide crazy amounts of wattage in a cool running package.

Many users of high efficiency horn speakers rely on tube amplifiers and class A solid state amps with great success because both types of amp can be built with nearly zero "hiss" which is prominent in some speakers.

Pass, parasound and others like to build speakers that are Class A for the first 10-30 watts and then run class AB for the rest. This way you get the clean/beautiful sound of class A (some say tube-like) while having power on tap if you need higher wattage when the music or your listening habit calls for it. Class A are favored over tubes for those that like less distortion and no issues with Tube replacement.

For public venues where you need a LOT of power without overheating and compact rack space... Class D work great for all purposes, especially where "critical" listening is not an issue. Don't get me wrong, there may be "great" class D products for home use also... Some that are not distinguishable from other types of amps in most applications.

Anyway... Those are just some ramblings of things that i have learned. I have a First Watt (nelson pass) F3 10 watt amp for my horns that I will be able to test out tonight when it arrives smile.gif. I hope its as awesome as people say it is... i remain a skeptic until I see for myself. I have been burned by press articles and marketing fluff in the past.
post #16696 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Since you are looking to power surrounds and surround backs that would be 803 or 804Ds, I would suggest Parasound Halo. Realistically, as long as you are not talking front L&R, Emotiva would probably do fine.

Parasound halo and pass labs amps run anywhere from 10 to 30 watts in Class A topology which sounds generally very good with extemely low amounts of audible hiss at idle. Great choices for B&W speakers in general. convenience features like 12 volt triggers and XLR connections are great too.

Rotel, classe, ATA also make decent amps. ATA's new signature amp coming out looks like a great contender with dual differential technology with super-high signal to noise ratio.

Happy hunting!
post #16697 of 17907
Yes, I neglected to mention ATI.
post #16698 of 17907
Plinius are also interesting!
post #16699 of 17907
Just got the new Pass Labs XA30.8 and the sound from this amp is amazing. They outdid themselves this time!
post #16700 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Class D amps acoustic signature is simply not audible at subwoofer levels. They have no negative impact on low bass frequencies that i can think of.

A lot of people say the same thing with the midrange and treble with class D amps - that they have no negative impact on mid and high frequencies that they can tell. People who own Salon2, 800D2, etc.

Impedance dip and wide phase angles of the speakers occur at lower frequencies, usually NOT at higher frequencies. It is a lot easier for amps to power the high frequencies. Speaker impedance dip and wide phase angles give amps hell. Amps that cannot handle severe impedance dip and wide phase angles will have a very bad "acoustic signature".

So if class D amps aren't any good, they won't be able to handle the severe impedance dip and wide phase angles.

And where do the severe impedance dip and wide phase angles occur? Yeah, in the BASS frequencies.

One more question. Have you EVER compared the musical sound of your subs with class-D pro plate amp vs. your Pass Labs amp? Like the XA30.8, which Pass Labs have outdone themselves? biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 2/26/14 at 7:29am
post #16701 of 17907

My next upgrade?

 

I like the idea about being surrounded by speakers at about 30 degree angle all on a circle of seven feet radius with welve speakers in the same plane biggrin.gif.

 

I think I will only need a couple on the ceiling to give me the Rain effect cool.gif

All B&W Diamond speakers:
- First            0d 800
- Second     30d 800
- Third          60d 802
- Fourth       90d 802
- Fifth         120d 802
- Sixth        150d 802
- Seventh   180d 802
- Eighth      210d 802
- Ninth       240d 802
- Tenth       270d 802
- Eleventh  300d 802
- Twelve    330d 800


So I just need to add only Five 802Diamonds and get an other room, plus an other processor, and more amplification since my room is too small and my processor can only do 7.2 eek.gif

post #16702 of 17907
Depends on the specific class D amp I suppose.

802d and salons are not nearly as obvious to notice/analyze midrange as spherical horns are. i have a pair of 802d and have heard salons. My experience is that i couldnt tell the difference between amps either until i got speakers that projected a very large soundstage.

Once you hear horns, i bet half the people on these forums would hear the difference between amps unless you were deaf.

I havent exhaustively tried class D with my setup and treated room, but I have had multiple class D amps including a simple panasonic and I couldnt tell the difference on 802d's. Even if there was a difference, it wasnt extremely apparent to me.

I suspect a lot of folks arent even setup with their room, speaker placement, speaker quality, etc to notice amp differences. I used to be in that same boat so I bet you can find my old posts that describe class D as being the next best thing to sliced bread.

On horns, if you can find me a class D that can beat or meet the caliber of my new Pass Labs XA30.8 class A amp, I'll give you a cookie and a beer. This new pass amp is revealing the way Jesus and Buddha are revealing.... I will sell it in a heartbeat for something cheaper and more efficient. Name the amp that I can buy used and I would be willing to try it.
post #16703 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Depends on the specific class D amp I suppose.

802d and salons are not nearly as obvious to notice/analyze midrange as spherical horns are. i have a pair of 802d and have heard salons. My experience is that i couldnt tell the difference between amps either until i got speakers that projected a very large soundstage.

Once you hear horns, i bet half the people on these forums would hear the difference between amps unless you were deaf.

I havent exhaustively tried class D with my setup and treated room, but I have had multiple class D amps including a simple panasonic and I couldnt tell the difference on 802d's. Even if there was a difference, it wasnt extremely apparent to me.

I suspect a lot of folks arent even setup with their room, speaker placement, speaker quality, etc to notice amp differences. I used to be in that same boat so I bet you can find my old posts that describe class D as being the next best thing to sliced bread.

On horns, if you can find me a class D that can beat or meet the caliber of my new Pass Labs XA30.8 class A amp, I'll give you a cookie and a beer. This new pass amp is revealing the way Jesus and Buddha are revealing.... I will sell it in a heartbeat for something cheaper and more efficient. Name the amp that I can buy used and I would be willing to try it.

IOW, you have NEVER compared the musical sound of your subs with class-D pro plate amp vs. your Pass Labs amp?

Furthermore, usually only horn speakers appear to exhibit a significant difference in acoustic sonic signature among amps?
post #16704 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

IOW, you have NEVER compared the musical sound of your subs with class-D pro plate amp vs. your Pass Labs amp?

Furthermore, usually only horn speakers appear to exhibit a significant difference in acoustic sonic signature among amps?

With horns the sound and stage is magnified like through an image is through a magnifying glass. Everything is "bigger" in imaging which is why nobody uses them as studio monitors like they would an 802d.

You can sometimes hear amp differences in 802's, etc. but its not as obvious as it is with horns. A layperson can start noticing the difference without being an audiophile.

I compared the class D XLS crown amplifiers with my pass labs xa30.5 and 30.8. I have 6 of these for surround applications. They sound markedly inferior to these two pass amps at every listening volume all the way up to reference. They also are not as quiet since hiss is severe from the XLS series when coupled with the high sensitivity horns.

Pass designs amps specifically for extreme quiet at baseline and designs the amps (the lower wattage ones at least) to be used with high sensitivity speakers and therefore that id what they test those amps on for sound quality.

I might borrow my brother's pioneer elite receiver with class D icepower units and see how it sounds just for grins. I don't think "high end manufacturers" have a monopoly on high quality audio however some of the most reputable brands like pass, parasound, theta, classe, etc. rarely create a product that is terrible. If anything, the higher end manufacturers are the ones that are hard to differentiate from one another, regardless of amp topology. I wouldnt mind listening to a Bel canto product, or something based on hypex... I'm not married to a specific brand so i would be willing to try anything.

The only brand i am unlikely to drop anytime soon is Avantgarde... Their speakers are earth shattering if you like the big imaging/soundstage and "live" sound they produce. I havent tried brands like JBL high end horns but they may be every bit as good.
post #16705 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

I compared the class D XLS crown amplifiers with my pass labs xa30.5 and 30.8. I have 6 of these for surround applications. They sound markedly inferior to these two pass amps at every listening volume all the way up to reference. They also are not as quiet since hiss is severe from the XLS series when coupled with the high sensitivity horns.

Yes, the XLS are the models I tried a bit over a year ago. They're poo compared to the McIntosh amps, (and to almost any other respectable "home" amp for that matter).

Anyone who thinks all amps sound the same should do that demo...
post #16706 of 17907
Question for all you guys. My brother recently passed away and I am looking to sell his audio equipment. He has a 7.1 setup with B&W M1 satellite speakers and the B&W PV1D subwoofer.

I know these are generally not the speakers discussed here, but I was wondering if you guys could give me an idea of market value and how I should price them?

I believe msrp on the satellites was $250 each and the sub was around $1700.
post #16707 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Question for all you guys. My brother recently passed away and I am looking to sell his audio equipment. He has a 7.1 setup with B&W M1 satellite speakers and the B&W PV1D subwoofer.

I know these are generally not the speakers discussed here, but I was wondering if you guys could give me an idea of market value and how I should price them?

I believe msrp on the satellites was $250 each and the sub was around $1700.

Very sorry for your loss!

General rule of thumb is to sell at around %50 of rrp. But depends on age and condition. If only a few months old and in factory condition then I would advertise at 70%. If old and a bit worn perhaps try at 40%
post #16708 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Very sorry for your loss!

General rule of thumb is to sell at around %50 of rrp. But depends on age and condition. If only a few months old and in factory condition then I would advertise at 70%. If old and a bit worn perhaps try at 40%

Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Question for all you guys. My brother recently passed away and I am looking to sell his audio equipment. He has a 7.1 setup with B&W M1 satellite speakers and the B&W PV1D subwoofer.

I know these are generally not the speakers discussed here, but I was wondering if you guys could give me an idea of market value and how I should price them?

I believe msrp on the satellites was $250 each and the sub was around $1700.

I would do a $500 reserve auction on ebay
post #16709 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffg8 View Post

Tried to pull the trigger on 803D's today. Dealer I have used for years, been in couple of times recently. He did offer to bring some to the house for demo. Considering all he had to do was order them I didn't feel he really stepped up to the plate offer wise. But its his business to run as he needs and I may keep looking. Not totally convinced that is the way to go. The landscape has changed greatly over the years and there are many quality players out there.



Well my dealer called this afternoon to see if I had purchased anything. He told me he has a customer who is moving to a condo and he will have a used pair 803D current version with boxes and wanted to know if I would be interested. 12% off what he quoted me for new, 20% off retail. Said the customer had multiple systems and was meticulous in his care of them. I told him I was interested, don't really know. I have been trying to convince myself for the last week Paradigm Studio 100 of CM10 would be good enough. Its good were talking again. Another problem with the 803D is the need for the HTM2 and that stand which I'm sure they give you free. This all started because I hang out here and thought I might need to upgrade my subwoofer.
post #16710 of 17907
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Very sorry for your loss!

General rule of thumb is to sell at around %50 of rrp. But depends on age and condition. If only a few months old and in factory condition then I would advertise at 70%. If old and a bit worn perhaps try at 40%

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post


I would do a $500 reserve auction on ebay


Thank you guys for the advice. I may do a posting on here first and then go to craigslist and the like. Ebay might be annoying due to the shipping - I have the boxes, but I'd rather not have to pack them all up and ship. Plus I'm in the DC metro area so there should be buyers around here, I hope.
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