B&W Owner's Thread - Page 8

Thanks but I already bought the 804's. I liked them better than the 703s.

-Chris

Enjoy.

The older 800 series used ferrite core inductors and electrolitic capacitors. I don't know about the Ds.

BTW, if you haven't opened the HTM4S box and you can afford the HTM3S, the HTM3S is built to match the 804S speakers, so it would probably be the better center channel choice for your setup if you value the quality of surround music. IMO it won't matter too much if you are using it for film only.

Congrats and enjoy your beautiful new speakers!

Thanks man.

Maybe I wasn't very clear up above in my ramblings. I bought the 804's about 8 months ago and am still enjoying the heck out of them. I have no center channel as of now, and won't be purchasing one for a few months.

My music listening is done in 2 channel only. I am not nearly as particular about movies, which is why I picked up some 602's for surround.

Thanks for your input,

Chris

No, it wasn't your fault. I was very busy with all of the attacks being made against me and probably missed it in your post. Sorry about that.

I'm a two channel listener also, for the most part, which is why I traded in my 700 series surround system for the 802Ds (I had my home theatre designed so that it is optimized for two channel listening). I haven't missed the surround channels, but I will be honest and say that I did enjoy surround music a lot more than I expected. I'm looking forward to being able to enjoy surround music again when my Listening Room/Home Theatre is finally finished and I settle on a final speaker choice. It is looking more and more like it will remain the 800 series B&Ws or it will change to the Focals, as many of my other choices don't fit the footprint of the 802Ds, for which my room was acoustically designed, and/or they are way out of the price range I am willing to spend, and/or they don't have matching surround speakers and center channel speakers. The Sonus Faber Amati speakers I was extremely interested in will not work in my situation unless I buy 5 of them and that is much more than I can afford to spend right now. That was heartbreaking for me to realize. Their website shows that in order to get matching surround speakers you need to shop in their lower priced speaker lines since the higher priced speakers don't have speakers for center channels or surround channels.

Oh well, now I'm rambling... Sorry.

Five of them?!?! That is an incredible setup. Now I can finally say I admire one thing about Steve Jobs.

I love the snail shell design on those things, truly beautiful. Are they still as good nowadays though, aren't they getting a little dated at this point? Or am I confusing their design date?

For $40K/pair I have other speakers I would want a lot more though. I still wouldn't make a full 5.1 surround setup out of them like Steve Jobs did, even if I could buy them without breaking into principle. Now that I consider it, I guess I wouldn't have a choice but to make a full 5.1 surround system out of most speakers in that price range. If I buy something like the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage speakers eventually, which have no center channel or surround channel speakers, I'm stuck getting all the same speakers for a 5.1 setup (like I would have to do with the Amati Homage speakers as well) or having speakers that don't match in one area or another (perhaps three of them in the front and something cheaper for surrounds...).

Boy, this thread has sure been anything but your typical speaker love-fest.

I'm interested in what anyone knows about the CM line of speakers. Is it true the CM line is intended to replace the 700 line, establishing a clear line between reasonably priced and godawfully priced? How would a set of CM1s do as surrounds, replacing 601S2s?

And when is B&W going to get rid of the 800 "S" line, since it only seems to be there to confuse.

yeah, he's probably the only person, next to maybe Tiger Woods and Oprah, who could afford five of them in one room.

The "D" and "S" 800 series speakers are also differentiated by the Diamond tweeters in the "D" models.

They aren't that expensive! Unless I misread something somewhere and it is really $40K per speaker, not per pair.

I have no idea what their pricing is. 40K per set is beyond expensive, in my world, for a pair of good speakers. That's [good] new car money. I believe one year's expenses for Stanford University is between $40,000.00 and $60,000.00.

Anyway, I can put together one hell of a [good] system with $40,000.00 . This includes a [good] multi-channel amp, pre-pro, disc player, speakers, etc.,...

this is what I want to know..........I'm interested in a complete 5.1 set-up: CM7 fronts, CM Centre, CM1 rears. I'm curious whether the 600 series would be better or what?

Go listen to both of them and pick the one that you feel sounds the best. If you have a good dealer there, he/she should let you bring them home one at a time for a day or two to see how they sound in your listening space where you will place them permanently in your home. You can't go wrong if you choose based on what gives you the most pleasure, at least in terms of personal enjoyment and fulfilment. You may also find that some faults in the speaker's design, such as an awkward frequency response (an example only - I'm not sure what the frequency response of those speakers are), may be cancelled out by your home environment making what would seemingly be a bad speaker, an astounding speaker when in your listening area.

I don't think CM will replace 700 line. I would guess the CM's performance is between the 700 and 600.

Yep, I would wager you could put together an [outstanding] system at that price.

Wouldn't it be great to be given a large enough budget and enough space so that you could buy anything/everything needed for a perfect system? Enough to build the perfect system (perfect as in incredibly great without any of the unnecessary bells and whistles).

yes, next to sex, this is my number one fantasy these days...........

imagine having a house to put all this stuff in as well! (almost impossible these days in california). I'm an experienced engineer (systems software/electrical), I can't afford a crappy 3-bedroom house, in a halfway decent neighborhood here (by myself)

That stinks. I'm sorry to hear that. Investing makes great money if you can switch fields at all and get in at a good firm. I keep hearing that people with your kind of scientific background are in large demand at investment firms. My background is in Computer Science and I use it to invest all the time in particular my knowledge of computer and electronic architectures.

If you are ever on the East coast and in the area you can always drop by and watch a movie or two with me (with enough warning so I can prepare my wife and kids for a visitor... as well as enough time to meet first so I can make sure you aren't a psychopath. LOL). I'm building a HT/Listening room (optmized for two channel listening), and while it isn't my dream space and parts of my system aren't part of my dream system, I'm grateful to have space in the house that my wife lets me use for my hobbies. I should be adding new pictures of the electrical work tonight but I'm so tired I can't even finish a paragraph without nodding off.

As far as a dream room goes... I would have to build my own building outside the house itself, I would put in an extension or separate house. The reason for this is that my biggest problem is ceiling height. My current space that is being developed isn't symmetrical but that isn't necessarily a problem and can even be a benefit if worked with closely and treated properly to compensate accordingly. In a new building though, the room/rooms would be symmetrical, and likely the walls would slant so that there are no direct reflections. In other words, it would be a lot like a recording studio listening room. I would want the rooms to have large dimensions, front to back and side to side as well. Most important dimension wise, which is where I am severly limited in my currently being constructed HT room in my basement, is the ceiling height. I'm building directly onto the joists to get every possible millimeter of space out of the room. My max height will be around 9' with the drywall in place, perhaps a hair less since I am using two layers of 5/8 drywall.

If I were going to go to these lengths in my new building, and since I would already be doing a lot of construction, adding more framing and drywall wouldn't be all that much more of an expense at that point (and it is a dream room/house so what does the additional expense matter anyway). In other words, I would put more than one room in the building. Perhaps three or four rooms all together. Two rooms would be dedicated to two channel listening. One would be a solid state room. For that system I would actually trade in my Ayre gear for top of the line Halcros... It is a dream system after all. Come to think of it, why trade in my Ayre gear when I can own both in my dream system, I'll just hire a dream handyman to change all of the eqiupment around a few times a week... LOL. One would be a tube room, likely a bunch of SET amplifiers and preamps with high sensitivity horn driven speakers (this would be a fun system where I switch out tube amps and different tubes in those amps for entertainment).

dCS stacks with all the available components would be shared by all the rooms. I would build the rooms so they all share a common room inbetween which would house all of the equipment, so each of the rooms would fill the corner of a box/rectangle and in the middle would be the equipment room. This would allow some of the rooms to share expensive equipment (since it is a dream system I could just buy a dCS stack for every room, but I want to be realistic here, perhaps one day I will come into money and will be able to afford the system if done correctly - a man can dream...). I would also have a top of the line Meridian DVD-A player to share among the rooms.

The third room would be a surround sound system that is specially treated for surround music, this way I won't have to compromise the best surround music sound quality for film sound quality or two channel sound quality. The fourth room would be a dedicated Home Theatre, with two projectors so I could make 3D movies with polarized lenses (the JVC technology does the 3D stuff I believe, if I remember correctly). Perhaps I would just condense the surround sound and HT into one room. If I only make three rooms and the third is a Home Theatre then (instead of surround music room), I would make the Home Theatre huge. This is a dream system after all, so why not plan on having a theatre that seats 25 to 30 people. :P LOL

I would think that, living in California, you would realize that there are a whole lot of people who can afford such a thing. Hell , even where I am now and where I lived before, there are gobs of people with real money.

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If you are suggesting that you can get lucky enough to find a speaker that EQ's your room well, I would say you aren't being realistic. If you are saying it's a good long term solution , even if you possibly DID , I would say you would be making a bad move.

Think of the relatively small (and few) freq abberations of most decent speakers and then consider the rather significant (and many) freq abberations of most rooms and try to guess the odds of making any serious impact in that regard, then consider how often room parameters change (position, furniture, decor, etc).
If the room is going to be a known commodity , dedicated, with few changes over a long period, then treat the room to greatly reduce it's problems.

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I have heard the CM's and think they give the 700's a run for their money, so , obviously I would say that they are a large step above the 600 series, and considering I am not one of those salesman who practices step down selling to
make a sale, telling people all the time that there is no need to spend more, when I say the CM's are worth a straight comparison to the 700's, you might want to listen to them together.

It's very simple and you are reading far too much into it , as well as ignoring some of the qualifiers. I'm saying that whatever the measurements of your speakers are in a perfect environment, it won't have the same measurement in your home listening position, and some of those differences might benefit you. So bringing it home and listening to it at home will yield different results than taking measurements and reading the measurements. You can't know if your home/listening space will have a beneficial or negative effect on the speakers unless you bring them home and listen to them in your home. Sometimes you might find that a speaker with measured problems sounds great in your particular listening room situation.

I didn 't say anything about solutions to problems, or finding the perfect speaker for your room, or treating the room to deal with its problems. I was simply saying that you should bring the speaker home and listen to it in the spot where you will use it at home, since it is unpredictable how it will sound until you listen to it there, as it is possible that problems measured in the speaker in a perfect space might end up working in your listening room (as was the case with my 802D's bass hump in my listening space...). In short, if you can demo a speaker in your home, you should do so, as that is the most realistic way to hear what it will sound like to you on a daily basis.

That sounds like a rumor, as the 700s are only a few years old and themselves replaced the CDM NTs. The originial CM series was short lived (it never appealed to me), but it's been revamped, and I like it a lot better now. I think three full-range lines lines would work, but the existing four lines are incremented in a logical way:

600s: Best-value models with baffle-mounted tweeters, but no FST midrange or real wood

CMs: Good-value models with baffle-mounted tweeters, FST midrange (on CM7) and real wood

700s: Moderately pricey models with "tweeter on top," FST midrange (on 703), real wood and much more stylish lines than 600s or CMs; represents the on ramp to B&W's upper tier

800s: Expensive with least compromise; defines B&W's sound, style and image

I wish they would just make the 800 series diamond tweeter only...

I think my preference would be:

600 Series - as is
700 Series - Upgraded to basically be the 800S speakers, at 700 prices (;
800 Series - Diamond Tweeter Only

very interesting................No offense, but I've always strayed away from that world (investing), just seemed boring , non-creative, and prone to con-artists and bull-shitters (mostly due to not knowing enough about it myself, of course). However, on the same line-of-thinking, I'm definitely open, and confident, in regards to investing into my own product development (electronic devices, design services, etc.,...). So do you work in Wall Street?

Actually I am a EE by degree, although I've transitioned to SW development these last 6 years. I've spent about 10 years in Aerospace- worked on everything from space-craft electronics (rocket engine electronic pyro-technics, test systems, etc.,...) and devices, to weapons and related devices (missile counter-measures, etc.,...), to (now) mostly commercial product design (laser printer controllers) and in the business world (application development). I work for a major insurance company these days. I'm very greatful for all these experiences. On the other side of all this I train full-time, putting in nearly 100 miles per/week on the road, and have traveled around the world, literally, these last 4 years or so competing in major marathons and road-races. My company sponsors me.


thanks for the invite, if I'm around that way I will. Actually, I've been in New York the last 3 years in-a-row for the NYC Marathon (believe it or not I'm actually part of the "elite" group of racers).


sounds very cool! I think 9ft ceiling will be nice actually. You got good insulation with doubled-up 5/8in thick dry-wall. And strong!


exactly!


never even considered that- four different rooms, one "central" hardware room, yes! I get excited just envisioning putting this all on paper (or in AutoCAD) as I wish.

Actually, I would only want a simple, modern, one-level structure, maybe two bed-rooms (all spread-out in nice size square footage- "california style"). I would have two systems- one system in my living-room area for dedicated 2-channel and multi-channel music. The other system in my family room would be a dedicated home theater. I could'nt even begin to think about the myriad of electronics I would use.

Fun to dream, and it's free! Actually, this is all only "material", which can be had in time. I really appreciate all your insight!

yeah, I was being sarcastic. There are zillions of well-off folks here. They drive $100,000.00 cars around here like "water"! It's scary how many thousands of people live like this here in [just] southern california. I don't know where all this money comes from? or how the infra-structure supports it?

You have to realize the average cost of a three-bedroom house is nearly 1 million dollars in most [decent] neighborhoods through-out california. Even "spotty" area's can be like $700,000.00 or $800,000.00. You know how much that equates to in mortgage?


wow, that's intriguing. I'll have to check out the CM7's. I'm really curious to hear the difference between Energy RC-Series and the CM-Series.

That's fine, but I'm just saying that it would be very unlikely that a "bad" characteristic of a room would be in the same range, FR -wise, as the abboration in a speaker, and with any similar amplitude to make much of a differance, and with room decor, layout, differant seating locations, etc, I think it is to the point of being almost a non-issue except in the few cases where problems with the speaker and the room are both bad enough in exactly the same region that the compound effect is staggering. Given that we may try to mitigate the more severe issues the room has over time or that changes in that environment will, likely, occur, you are best not trying to pick a speaker for a particular room (and it's current layout/design).


Well, again, you are , in that case, looking for a speaker to EQ a room and the odds of being very successful are slim (and probably the results would be short-lived). You find that your room has a +8 db spike between 4500-5000hz and then you find a speaker that happens to have a spike at the exact same FR , of what, though, 2 db? Then that is better than the fact that it (the same speaker) is 3 db down at 800 hz where the room has no problem compared to the other speakers which where flat at 800hz? Then your wife changes/adds curtains and two pictures and a new chair and your king seat moves 18" to the right. Now it's a whole 'nother ball game.


Many here would still not own it, many will like it regardless of what room it's in.

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, but I will relate the story of the Musician father of a an old friend of mine who tunes pianos as well as plays them at a level that astounds me. I asked him how he can tune them in so many differant environments with the rooms having such a profound effect, and he said that the brain is a remarkable filter and familiar sounds in unfamiliar surroundings will still sound like they do because the brain processes and filters the info that it hears as being the space, your friend's voice will sound differant in other spaces, but you'll still know it's your friend. A Steinway will be distinguishable from a Yamaha , if properly tuned, even if in differant rooms (to him, I guess he meant). He went on and on and on, and while I didn't agree with everything he went on to say, it was rather enlightening.
I'm just offering another perspective Que, and don't mean to take away from what you do that works for you.

Sometimes you learn things after the fact supporting multiple corrolaries of Murphy's Law. I believe that I might have really stepped into it and hopefully, it is addressable.

I have a pair of beautifully sounding (to my ears as well as having the WAF) a pair of 604s (series 3) for the past three years. They are wonderfully matched to an LCR 600 center channel. While these are not in the 800 series, for us they are fabulous. And for me, they have made listening to both music and using as a home theatre set up (mated with a Hsu STF-3 sub and a pair of rear placed surround speakers) the delight of my daily listening experience.

Recently took the plunge, and bought our 1st large screen plasma (50") to enhance the pleasure, which resulted in a redesigning of our family room. The end result of purchasing + to keep the plasma + the WAF =the redesign which included the creation of an entertainment center wall unit being built to house it all.

The design included having the 604s placed into surrounding enclosures in the EC (entertainment center) that will have approximately 1.5" on either side & above (with about 2-3" behind). The center channel will be in a similar situation being placed on a bookshelf like setting above the plasma. Esthetically it is visually lovely since there will now also be a caticorner gas fireplace (floor to ceiling unit) to the left of the EC, thus completing the entire length of the wall where the EC is. Visually Lovely, However...

After construction began, I realized that placing the speakers in the EC might impact on their sound. Naively believing that since the speakers were enclosed without baffles that everything would be ok. (The CC has a baffle which will be closed.) BOY, was I mistaken as I was correct about the changed impact since reading this thread helped me to realize that the sound will change if the 604s are elevated, placed near a wall, near other objects, etc. So I placed my head inside of the proposed enclosure and noted the echo as I spoke

The unit is about 90% done (being constructed in my den) and changing the size/locations are not discussable as per WAF. In otherwords, I should have thought about this before the design and construction. So be it. Now, I must find a way to somewhat address/correct it.

Other factors involved:
-Changing speaker locations are out of the question.
-Excellent planning for speaker wire channels have been effectuated using pvc pipes behind the unit so that ample-hidden slack can be achieved.


I have considered several options:
1. Placing the 604s on a pull out (if I can construct one) so that when in use they are somewhat in an open setting. (However, the right front when pulled out, would also be about 4" off of the side wall of the room).

2. Placing closed cell foam/insulation in the rear of both cabinets (and linked to the speakers) to assist in reducing the potential rear echo when the speakers are moved out on the tray

3. Visiting a furniture reupholstery store and obtaining closed cell foam (used in cushions) and wrapping them in a black speaker cloth and placing them in the open portions (left/right/top/back) of the cabinets which measure approx 1.5" all around the speakers and leaving them intact.

BTW- where would I be able to obtain black speaker cloth to cover the closed cell foam?

While I am open for suggestions/comments and the like (other than being bashed for this error on my part, which I admit was a biggggggggie), I realize that there might not be much that can be done. However, with the great minds and wealth of experiences that are out there, one never knows unless I ask.

Thanks in advance.
..Mark

It is nice to see a B&W Owners Thread. I have owned the B&W 803S's for over a year and for the longest time I was not satisfied to my liking the sound. I even started a thread concerning the 803's and the Paradigm S4's and was seriously contemplating switching over. That is when I received a lot of recommendations concerning setting up the B&W's correctly in my well treated 34x20 dedicated home theater. It took me a while to get it right and once I did the sound reminded me on why I bought them in the first place.

I agree that B&W definately has a unique sound and they are very difficult to set up but once done correctly with the right electronics they sound amazing. I almost switched and now I am glad I didn't. I also was using them with the Denon 5805 and I believe that was a part of the problem. I recently upgraded my electronics to the McIntosh MX-119 and the McIntosh MC-207 7 channel amp as well as added a pair of DS8 In wall surround speakers which also made a difference. The amp, to me, improved the 803 tremendously especially the low end. After the upgrade I could almost hear my speakers thanking me. The amp and pre/pro made that much of a difference.

My current set up is:
803S's for front right and left
HTM1 for center
DS8 Inwalls for surround right and left
SCM's for rear back right and left
ASW 825 for sub

I am pretty happy as of now but I did audition the 802D's, 803D's, HTM1D yesterday and I can really tell a difference between the non Diamond tweeter and the Diamond Tweeter. The Diamond tweeter is to me a very nice upgrade and worth the price. The 803D's to me sounded better than the old 802S's without the Diamond tweeter. The 802's had a little better bass definition but not a whole lot more than the 803D's and if I were to upgrade I would definately look into the 803D's and the HTM2D Center. I was shocked at the difference in sound and size between the 803S's and the 803D's. The new 803D's with the three woofers were a lot better, to me, in the low end then my 803s's.

I for one, would love it if B&W would make the entire 800 series with the Diamond tweeter eventhough that would cost me additional money to upgrade but in the long run would be worth it.

great input. I would imagine most [good] separate amplifiers, combined with a separate pre-pro, would make a difference.

It does. At first I combined the Denon 5805 with an Anthem Statement Amp and could not tell much of a difference so I was not sure if the Denon was the problem or not. I auditioned a number of pre/pros and amps and the McIntosh just sounded so sweeeeeeet with the B&W's. A number of people at a dedicated Mac forum told me about the combo and I have to agree with them, to me, the Mac and B&W combo is a match made in heaven.