B&W Owner's Thread - Page 9

hmmm, very interesting. Making me more determined to go for, both, a multi-channel amp, and multi-channel pre-pro. As opposed to using, or "settling" for, my Yamaha receiver as pre-pro with a good multi-channel amp (although I will probably start off this way).

Anybody here pair their B&W w/ classe gear?

Right now I have 804s run by Rotel RB/RC 1070 separates.

I really really like the classe CAP-2100. How much should I pay attention to the 100 Watts rating (as opposed to getting a CP-500 preamp w/ Rotel RB-1080 amp for similar price and double power).

90% music w/ emphasis on bass hungry pipe organ cds.
8% PStwo (Final Fantasy XII - definately not a stress)
2% movies (I live in an apt, so I typically use avg 70db level rather than 85db)

Room lwh: 17x12x9 cuft open to hallway and 12x12x9 room

I'm confused with your use of the current 800 model designations and references to the previous generation 800s. I assume when you say 802S you mean N802...N being for Nautilus. I also assume your system consists of N803s and a Nautilus HTM1.

read this (maybe you've seen this?)........
http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/...B92B1FFCB15967

Well, I used to have a N804 two-channel system with the Classe CAP-101 integrated amp. This amp is rated at 100 watts per channel and did the job just fine as I didn't crank the system very often. At 70 dB you shouldn't worry about it. The Classe will do just fine with the 804s. The only reason I sold my old Classe was because I wanted to run the system at higher volume for longer periods of time. I went with a Musical Fidelty A5 integrated at 250 watts per channel. Equal to the Classe in smoothness, but with more oomph.

No, I do not work on Wall Street. Right now I've been investing my funds in Venture Capital opportunities, as well as investing in a few online trading accounts which I have been playing around with on a daily basis (I've actually done well with them during this last year, earning over 10%, despite the limitations of the Ameritrade interface - well, it is TDAmeritrade now and the interface has gotten a lot better in the last few months than it ever used to be in the past). I had a very fortunate run in the 90s tech market, as well as some great venture capital investment returns. Other than that, and fortunately for me nowadays (I am grateful to God for how fortunate I have been), my money works for me, so I don't have to work for my money.

For the foreseeable future I don't need to work, but I'm thinking of putting together a consulting firm that covers a wide range of computer/electronics related topics since I have a lot of spare time. Included would be: computing/computers, programming, home theatre, audio. Since I have a lot of spare time I was considering taking classes to get certification on a wide variety of home theatre/audio topics, including Crestron programming and acoustical room design.

It sound like Im a 2nd class B&W citisen with 620i and 600i, also 550 and 110i. I have several marantz amps 1060,1070,2238,2252,3300. How do I get the most out of this system, should I biamp them. Also on the 110 I upgrated the crossover and tweeter with a damaged pair of 330 prisms and they sound great. I wanted to add one more 110 midrange to each speaker. So It would be 2midrange woofers and one tweeter, is it ok to use the same 330 crossover and how should I wire them. Or am I wasting my time.....

I had never considered it beofre that post either. Why not though, it is a dream system! I would definitely want two rooms for two channel (they could both be shared with a multichannel system also I guess). The reason for this is that there are two types of systems IMO, one that is faithful to the recorded signal, which outputs the signal as authentically as possible without any alteration. The second type is one which alters the signal but sounds best to the ears. The first, I imagine would be a Vandersteen or Dunlavy (I think Von Schweikert also I believe - but I'm not sure, if anyone does know, please speak up) type speaker system IMO. The second would be a Wilson type speaker system IMO, where the sound output sounds eerily alive and real, but is not realistic in terms of how real music sounds in the studio or to the recording engineer, yet it is often much more pleasing than the authentic sound.

Within those two rooms I would play around with solid state vs. tube gear. Screw it, since it is a dream setup... I will have three or four rooms, and those extra two rooms will be for playing around with all kinds of speakers and solid state vs. tube gear. I really love the look of those Bosendorfer speakers, that came out last year I think. I want to demo those pretty badly, but they won't work in my listening space. I have been considering turning my new office space outside the home theatre into a secondary listening room as well as my office.

I could definitely do so very easily. There is a sliding glass door on one side of the long length of the room, and on the other end will be a partition and two french doors. The sides of the room will be drywall, my desks, bookshelves, air handling units, and a double window as well on one side. Not the perfect situation, but I could build myself some extra room treatments and use it for a relatively cheap tube system. Perhaps an Avantgarde uno, or a Zu Cable speaker, or a Tannoy speaker and a SET amp, or a solid state and the Bosendorfers if I like how they sound in a demo. The Tannoy speakers might work best if I get the ones that have built in DSPing, since the room will be very imperfect. The other option if I want to go with DSPing would be one of the Meridian speakers, as they have some heavy duty DSPing built into some of their speaker lines.

Who am I kidding, my wife would never let me do another listening room, even if it is my office space. The sound quality of the setup would be so inferior to my dedicated room that I wouldn't ever use it anyway. It would be a huge waste of money.

As far as my insight goes, thanks. I don't feel that I have much useful information to share IMO, but if I have been of any help to anyone at all I am happy to have been of service. If I can be of any help information wise, let me know, I'm more than happy to share what little information I know.

good idea.


you should consider purchasing a new AutoCAD LT 2007 license, and take a class. This will provide you infinite design capabilities. You can create your own 2-D floor-plans, system layouts, wiring diagrams, etc.,...Essentially, having CAD skills elevates your conceptual capabilities. One of the most valuable skills one can have.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet...112&id=2498418

I never said anyone should pick a speaker for a particular room. You are not understanding my posts I think, that or you are trying to make an argument with me and are trying to find any reason to do so, as you are arguing things I never said.


I'm not looking for a speaker to EQ a room. Are you not reading what I am posting? In short, I'm saying that you won't know what a speaker sounds like in your listening space until you put the speaker in that space and listen to it there. I think you are just trying to find a way to argue with me, as your points are missing my statements completely and are taking them so far out of context as to be intentionally argumentative. I'm not going to argue points that I didn't make with you simply because you misinterpret them and turn them into arguments. There is nothing to argue in my original post on this topic, which is what makes these responses of yours so peculiar IMO.



I don't get it. What is there to disagree with? "You won't know what a speaker will sound like in your listening space until you place it in your listening space and listen to it there," (in which case, it could sound better or it could sound worse, no matter what its perfect measurements are in a perfect room). What is there to argue against in that statement? You are either having a very hard time translating my posts, or you are intentionally looking for arguments when there aren't any there to be made unless you alter what I am saying (which is what you have been doing). This wouldn't bother me that much except for the fact that you are altering what I am saying and then acting as if I am wrong and you are correct in a way that is very condescending.


This is the perfect example of how condescending your post is... Not only do you alter what I said until it means something completely different, you then assume that I use these methods, which are a product of your imagination and not my post, as a way to pick my own speakers and set up my own listening space.

Offer your perspective all you want. Do me a favor though, leave me out of your posts unless you work on your comprehension ability. This will ensure that you don't waste my time and your own with things I didn't write. Right now it looks to me as if you are responding to me just to provoke arguments... Which would work better if you were actually arguing a point I stated, and not something you fabricated out of the elements my post.

Can't help you there. Sadly, a speaker designed to be freestanding on the floor is not meant to be placed in any kind of container. A speaker of this nature is not meant ot be placed in or close to a wall either. Your best bet, which you can't do, is to place them outside the unit and a few feet in front of it.

What is with all these women in the USA? Why are our women so spoiled that they always decide on these issues? No wonder the divorce rate is so high and is still rising (I bet the rising divorce rate is paralleled by this increase in selfishness women have in their homes). I guess I am no better, as my wife controls most of our house as well, but my HT/listening room is my space, and I can do whatever I like in that space. That space and my office are the areas I control in my house. I don't understand men who don't have at least one space in their house for their own use. I know guys who have houses like mine and don't even have their office to do with as they please. One guy I know has an office at home and his wife decorated it, and chose all the furniture, etc, despite all his protests he still gave in and let her do it. That poor guy is working in a woman's powder room as far as I am concerned. People need their own space in their house, a space where they can express their self IMO. Women don't understand how good they have it in this country, in most countries they are still second class citizens.

Heh heh heh, sorry for the long rant.



Guilford of Maine has acoustically transparent fabrics. I believe most of them are acoustically transparent, you might want to enquire with them just in case on any particular fabric you choose. If you register for their website you can look at all their fabrics online and pick as many as you are interested in to have them sent to you as samples. This is what I did in order to find fabric to cover my corner bass traps, soffit trap, and wall treatments and I ended up using "511 Henna" for my room to match the other colors I am using (mostly very dark redish browns - you can see exactly what I am using in my thread on my HT construction which is linked to in my signature). Their fabric has a burlap type knit which is very transparent to sound.

Thank you for that suggestion. I will definitely look into it. If you have any other useful advice please feel free to let me know.

I was thinking of doing acoustical design first so that I can design acoustically for all kinds of rooms, then add things on from there. I already have a bunch of friends who have been watching my project come to fruition who want me to advise them on home theatres in the next few years when they can afford to do them. The construction guy working on my project is willing to work for me if I start the business, and he has been doing excellent work. I also think the electrician would be willing to work with me on projects as well. I really want to learn how to program Crestron remotes and such, or better yet, program remotes on my own and make something competitive with crestron. I am a very skilled programmer and can learn how to program for any device, even at assembly language level if I need to take it that low.

I'm sorry, I am trying to find out how good a speaker can sound , period. I don't want to hear if a speaker sounds "better" in a certain space, I just want to know if a speaker is capable of great sound and then try to get that sound in my listening environment.

I am doing everything I can NOT to be condescending or arguementative, and , to the contrary, am going to great pains to understand what it IS that you are saying.


I'm not concerned with the perfect room, but rather trying to discover what it is about someone's specific room that would make it essential to evaluate a speaker there?

I'm sorry, I was trying to understand, if it is going to be painful due to a language comprehension problem, I'll beg off.......
I apologize if , somehow, I offended you.

All I was saying is: you won't know how a speaker sounds in a listening room until you listen to it in that listening room, and at that point it might sound better than you would expect (or worse).

There was nothing deeper about what I was saying. There was nothing to analyze. There was nothing being stated that applied to sound theory. There was nothing I said that was meant to make a statement about speaker setup in general or how to go about shopping for speakers. It was that simple. That you won't know how it will sound in a room until you bring it home and listen to it in your room. The statement was made simply to point out that despite all other things, you might bring a speaker home and it could sound great (or terrible) in your listening room, which is why listening to a speaker in your listening space is important to do before you have already spent the money, at which point you likely won't get your money back.

It is no problem. I couldn't figure out if you just didn't understand what I was saying, or if you were trying to find a way to argue with me. It was becoming condescending, whether unintentional or not. No offense taken then, since you weren't intentionally doing it.

O.k., not wanting to be arguementative, but trying to understand....What do you do if you've been WOWED by a speaker on multiple occaisions in various rooms under various circumstances but are less than thrilled with it in your listening room? Return it or fix the room? Do you figure that the other environment you were listening in was helping the speaker in a way that your room wont or can't? Then are you looking for a speaker that will specificly sound better in your room, specificly?

Damn, I'm trying as hard as I can to make sure I'm not misunderstanding or being obtuse....

There is nothing to argue and you are still looking for an argument with me. I only mentioned it so that the poster would be aware that the speaker will sound different in his listening room. I did not tell the poster not to do things to make his listening room sound better. I didn't tell him to base his purchase on how it sounds in his listening room, only that he might be surprised by how it sounds, despite any previous measurements to the contrary in other environments. Your response indicates you are trying to find an argument with me still! This conversation should have been over already...

99% of people that buy speakers will buy them and then put them in the room without ever treating the room or even moving the speakers once they are placed in their desired listening position. If you want to know how I design my listening room and how I place my speakers in the listening room, then go to my Home Theatre construction thread at this link: Oh no! Not another one of those "I just began my home theatre thread" threads.

Of course

I am just second guessing the 100W. Esp since it costs 5x my current 135Watts.

Does most of the sound characteristic come from the preamp section? Im thinking it does, but I really dont have the technical background to back that up with.

I think, both, the amp and pre-amp, create a unique "synergy". Although, I believe, the pre-amp defines the "signature". Of course speakers play a major role as well. I'm sure others can elaborate more on this.

Same thing happened to me and I played around with the position and placement of the speakers as well as fixed the room. If you loved the speakers while demoing and once at home you are not thrilled than it is either your room or your equipment.

Did you listen to the speakers with the same equipment you have at home? If so then it is your room.

According to Double Blind Tests, among preamps in similar price/performance brackets that use similar technologies, even of different companies, preamps/amps/etc don't have different sound characteristics. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but the methods seem fairly sound.

As far as my own experience with different preamps recently (Bryston SP1.7 and Ayre K-1xe) the only difference seemed to be increased transparency and more silence in the noise floor (or blackness/silence behind the music, etc - I use those terms because of a lack of knowledge of audio terminology on my part).

Same with switching from the 9B SST to the Ayre MX-R monoblocks. With that switch the biggest thing I noticed was with music that had extreme dynamic range, all of a sudden it wasn't flattening and becoming one dimensional any more. The music was now staying 3 Dimensional and didn't collapse. All of the instruments and different noises stayed in a dimensional space instead of losing its shape and form. Both already had an incredibly quite background noise (i.e. no hum, hiss, etc) and both were already transparent. With both changes in equipment it was like veils had been removed.

My experience with cables has been not so great. I spent a ridiculous amount of money on Nordost cables (not their top of the line thankfully though...). When I switched the old cables (Acoustic Research Best Buy cables - the better of the two Acoustic Research cables) I didn't notice a difference, though I did not A/B the cables or pursue it further, because after spending the kind of money I spent and not having the ability to get a refund, I just didn't want to know... For my HT I wanted to make sure I bought good quality cables just in case, but I didn't want to go overboard again. I could afford the BetterCables and I liked that they used silver and copper. Even if they really don't do anything, I have all my bases covered just in case, except more Nordost Frey cables because I will never spend that much on cables again, unless they can prove they actually work better. I will do more extensive testing when my room is finished here in the basement, but when switching one BetterCable in and out of the Nordost system I didn't hear any difference at all. I never played around with the speaker cabling though, so I can't speak concerning those. Another thing to consider is that I was using XLR with the Ayre gear and single ended with the Bryston gear.

Speakers are the one area where the differences between sound can be night and day. Speakers are the one area where money invested has serious returns on sound quality (for the most part). Sound character changes noticeably between speaker manufacturers

VTGOLFER,

Your post is illustrating why his post is such a problem. There was no person with those issues in this thread. He is fabricating an argument out of his misunderstanding of a simple statement in a post I made awhile ago. Now you have come along and are mistaking it for a real issue and/or problem someone is having in the thread. LOL. It is sort of funny, but ultimately sad as it is a waste of everyone's time. This is telephone tag of the worst kind...

Currently thinking about getting a Velodyne DD12 or Sunfire sub that has built in EQ. Also thinking about adding a NAD C272 amp to drive the two fronts. Still researching!

Norm

In case anyone is wondering, my hearing is perfectly fine. I was at an ear, nose and throat specialist last year and while I was there for allergies I asked to have my hearing tested. I passed with flying colors. Nothing was out of the ordinary for a 32 year old male.

I would definitely get an amp with parametric EQ over an amp without it, multiple parametric EQs are even better. My acoustical engineer (Richard Rives of Rives Audio, who designed my two channel optimized home theatre room) highly recommended the Revel Performa B15a, because it is both musical and has serious "boom boom" for Home Theatre (most subs are great for home theatre, but seriously lack musicality according to what he was saying).

The other sub he recommended more than the Performa B15a was the Ultima Sub30, which I ended up getting two of on Audiogon as per his recommendation (I would look on Audiogon and see if you can nail a great price on the B15a like I did with my Sub30s - I wouldn't have bought two if I couldn't have gotten such a great price on them). He actually said I definitely need two subs and I might need four if the two don't cover the room well enough (it is a very long room... ), so I'm still worried that I might have to add more subs to the setup, in which case I will likely add two B15a subs in the back of the room. This way I can use the Sub30s with my 802Ds and monoblocks in the front for all my two channel listening, and when I do home theatre or surround music, the B15a subs would be hooked up to the surround speakers in the back of the room.

I wonder if he would recommend the Concerta B12 in the lower price regions, but I'm not sure as the B12 seems to have only one parametric EQ which would make it harder to integrate into a system than the B15a, though any EQ is better than none... I think the hardest part is musicality, and I'm not sure how well the B12 does in that respect, but I do know that he recommended the B15a and the Sub30 for the best of both worlds. I don't think he has an agenda when he recommends the Revel Subs, because he owns a speaker company and he didn't recommend his own speakers company's subwoofers for my specific application. Unfortunately, the differences between the Performa and the Concerta lines is probably pretty large (possibly larger than the differences between the Sub30 and the B15a), but since both higher end subs are highly recommended by him, and since some of that higher end technology is likely to have found its way into the lower end model IMO, it is likely a better choice than many of the other subs out there with a single parametric EQ for both music and theatre IMO. That's my wooden nickel worth of advice.

Here are the B15a Details.

Here is the B15a Overview.

Here are the B12 Details.

The JLF113/F112 have been getting quite a bit of praise over in the subwoofer forum section.

QueueCumber: Did the double blind tests cover preamp that were 5x price stretch? Since DACs, OPamps, etc have been in the works for a long time, I would figure that the quality of Preamps in the same price range would be the "same". Another problem is that I don't know what sort of cds I should bring to elucidate differences. The cds I audition with usually separate the toy speakers from the real speakers due to driving speakers to their excursion limits (pipe organ cds).

Is your definition of noisefloor the "fisssss" sound that comes from the tweeter when there is no music playing? With my rotel equipment, I can clearly hear it from 1 foot away, and at the dead of night, I can hear it from 4 feet away.

Thanks, I'll check it out.


I think all the DBTs I have seen only make the claim for products of similar quality in relative price ranges (or similar components if the price is jacked up insanely high due to marketting), but I'm not 100% positive. I don't go around reading much DBT material.


I use all different ranges of music. A lot of music I like to listen to on a daily basis, then some stuff that I feel is good for seeing how well a speaker and/or the equipment handles alot at once (like some songs from The Flaming Lips, Soft Bulletin - these were what I noticed cleared/cleaned up a lot and gained dimension when I switched amps). I'm usually not much more specific in my choices than that, though I'm trying to be in order to test the differences between the 802D and the 800D. I try to bring a nice range of sounds, from classical to 4 piece rock bands where you can hear their positioning and the lead vocals really well (often the Doors as well as Bowie's Ziggy Stardust, sometimes The Police's Synchronicity). Acoustical material is also heavy on my list, like Clapton's Unplugged. More modern sounding stuff like Radiohead's OK Computer and Beck's O'Delay with lots of sound effects... Then also, Burt Bacharach and Elvis Costello's album, Nora Jones. Then also Steve Vai's Two Sisters instrumental (acoustic) from his second solo album I think is excellent for hearing how well a speaker and other equipment play high pitched harmonics (there are so many subtle guitar harmonics being played in that instrumental - I always bring this one with me), Bela Fleck's Drive. Some old school stuff like Pink Floyd's Wish you Were Here album (Shine on You Crazy Diamond especially). Some jazz, like Miles Davis Kind of Blue for the horns. The list goes on and on...

I would definitely appreciate a list of any albums you feel drive speakers to their excursion limits. I could definitely use more albums to play around with at home and when doing demos.


Yes, that is my definition, right or wrong. I don't have any noise coming through my system when nothing is playing on it I don't think, though I have never put my head that close to the speakers. From what I recall there is no noise. My system is packed away while my HT is being built, so I can't go and check for another three weeks or so. Even on my Bryston gear, the SP1.7 and 9B SST I don't remember having any "fissing" or other sound of that level. Perhaps my house electrical current is very clean, we do live out in the country away from any major electrical usage zones.

I'm using a C272, along with a Yamaha RX-V1600 (as pre-pro), to drive my front channels, it sounds very nice. Very robust, and clean, power.

I just bought the matching pre-amp (C162), still trying to "re-shuffle" my rack to fit it in. Have'nt got to hear the difference of the NAD pre-amp as compared to my Yamaha receiver pre-amp section yet.

When I was demoing the NAD C162/C272 combo in my local boutique store the rep used B&W 600 series (either DM603 S3's or DM604 S3's). Man, the NAD combo, combined with the B&W's, sounded absolutely beautiful! Very nice, detailed, sound-stage. The B&W's had very good clarity and transparency. The rep played a Patricia Barber hi-res selection, you could literally "see" her voice distinctively positioned (as if standing in front of the mic), with all the various instruments in their respective positions, with some "depth". Everyone in the store came over to listen and could'nt believe that the sound was coming from the $650.00 amp/$600.00 pre-amp combo.

I'm re-configuring things, such that, I can use the C162/C272 combo for dedicated 2-channel listening. However, I can still operate 5.1 surround, using both the Yamaha and C162/C272 combo, for watching DVD-Movies, digital cable TV, also multi-channel music. A sort of "hybrid" HT/audio system.

Ill start listening to my Dave Brubeck and Bela Fleck more so that I become more familiar with what they offer.

In terms of 802D vs. 800D, I could not tell them apart in the dealer's room with their selection of jazz (I had forgotten to bring my pipe organ cds that time). With the same crossover points and only 2hz more extension, its going to be tough. In fact, since all of the drivers are the same material, unless they use a higher quality crossover at the crossover points which I am unaware of...

The only thing I can think of is that the 800D will produce bass with less effort (excursion) than the 802D. Bass distortion (at this level) is very hard to hear though, so I am not sure what sort of cues you can look for.

While I have not heard anybody complain about it, larger cabinets may tend to have slightly worse imaging than smaller cabinets.

For bass handling, Felix Hell Organ Sensation (Reference Recordings RR-101CD) will always be my chief "benchmark" since I have not found another disk that contains such strong sustained 16-25hz bass tones.

For most "normal people" I am not convinced (yet) that moving from the 802D to the 800D reaps the benefit commanded by the almost doubling of price. By "normal" I mean people who listen to music where 34hz is as low as the instruments produce. If I were classified as "abnormal" due to my heavy interest in pipe organ music, and money was not a concern, the 2hz extention would be a very tough sell because I would "need" at least 16hz more.

If the JL F113 is as what they are saying in the subwoofer forum, then I would strongly consider 2 of them and cross them at 30hz.


Digression:

My only real world comparison of "better floorstander vs. lesser floorstander + sub" is between the 803s vs 804s + ACI Maestro XL.

With the Maestro XL crossed at 45hz (great care was taken in subwoofer setup) the 804s MeastroXL combo trounced the 803s in the following ways:

The smaller 804s had a better stereo image.
The combo had clean and useful bass extention down to 17hz (-3db) where the 803s was missing the 16hz-32hz octave.

The way I quantified the "missing octave" was that at normal volumes ~ 75db avg w/ peaks of 92db, the low C sustained note in Track 17 of the Felix Hell cd gave me this sensation in my chest when the Maestro XL was in action. This sensation was missing with the 803s.

Now my comparison was made possible by a dealer who let me take the 803s home and a very nice apartment mate who helped me with the moving. The 800d isnt exactly something that is easy to transport and borrowing from the dealer might pose impossible.

how about the difference between using a receiver's pre-amp compared to a dedicated pre-amp? (I hear it's dramatically different, or significantly better).


funny you mention this. I've been using all Monster, along with a few Acoustic Research interconnects, and they seem just fine.

Ok, I think we're clear now.