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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 104

post #3091 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by sck237 View Post

Thanks for the heads up regarding the new Rotel amps and receviers. Only thing is I don't think I can wait that long, since my dealer says they will only come in end of the year.

What exactly is the real world benefit of Class D amps?

And what receiver/amp combo do you use?

Class D amplifiers are the most efficient amplifiers. The input powers are efficiently converted to output powers to as high as 95-97%. This means less heat and less power consumption.

The new Rotel amps and receivers are going to be expensive. But if your dealer can give you a very good deal for the current line of power amps, why not? I'm using Rotel RSP-1066 and RMB-1075.
post #3092 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

I have 704's in a living room music system. I found that they lacked deep bass and added a subwoofer, with a crossover set at 60 Hz, and now there is plenty of bass and I'm very happy with them after 18 months. I'd guess that for movies, they would not give you the bass impact you want unless you added a sub. Otherwise, I think they would be fine for movie viewing--very clear on dialogue (I've listened to some spoken word recordings with them, as well as FM radio).

As for scratches and tipping, don't put them on pointed metal tips or the round rubber buttons that come with the speakers. Although this might cause some degradation of the sound quality, the speakers won't be so easily tipped. I'd also suggest keeping the grilles on to avoid curious fingers. Finally, scratches may be best avoided by surrounding each speaker with a small electrified fence.

Thank you all for the replies. I will check out the speaker stands. In addition to that is there a way to fasten them to the wall with something? Pardon me, but I would like to buy floor standing speakers and I am trying to find a way to protect them from the kids.

Also, this might sound a bit crazy, but to protect against scratches is there a way to shrink wrap the entire speaker and then just cut and remove the wrap covering the speaker/grill area? This way the wood portion can be protected and the grill will hopefully protect the speaker area. Any thoughts?

MPK
post #3093 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpksv View Post

Thank you all for the replies. I will check out the speaker stands. In addition to that is there a way to fasten them to the wall with something? Pardon me, but I would like to buy floor standing speakers and I am trying to find a way to protect them from the kids.

Also, this might sound a bit crazy, but to protect against scratches is there a way to shrink wrap the entire speaker and then just cut and remove the wrap covering the speaker/grill area? This way the wood portion can be protected and the grill will hopefully protect the speaker area. Any thoughts?

MPK

I've never heard of wall-mounting or shrink-wraping floorstanding tower speakers before. Maybe try some clear Reynolds Wrap, but I'm not sure if it would damage the wood after a long period of time.
post #3094 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpksv View Post

... to protect against scratches is there a way to shrink wrap the entire speaker....?

I suspect the shrink wrap would degrade the sound quality a lot more than scratches would.

Here's another angle: I'm assuming you want the speakers to look nice for some portion of their life (and all the B&W's look nice IMO). I would think that shrinkwrapping would look really tacky (kind of like my grandma's shrinkwrapped couch) and would be needed until your kids are old enough to know to treat them with some care. So in order to maximize the time your speakers look nice, over their expected lifetime, they need to last at least twice as long as the destructive phase of your kids.

Trust me, I understand your concern - I've got 4 boys, and flying hot wheels cars and exploding legos are a non-stop occurance in my house. And their destructive nature doesn't seem to abate as soon as I would hope or like - boys just seem programmed to bang one toy against another.

Seriously, my experience (with 700's) is that the finish is actually quite scratch resistant - the cones are obviously the fragile part, and there's not much you can do to physically protect those. So my recommendation is that you enjoy your beautiful speakers *now*, and outline some dire consequences for speaker abuse. Good luck!

-Reid
post #3095 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpksv View Post

Also, this might sound a bit crazy, but to protect against scratches is there a way to shrink wrap the entire speaker and then just cut and remove the wrap covering the speaker/grill area? This way the wood portion can be protected and the grill will hopefully protect the speaker area. Any thoughts?

MPK

Wait a minute. You care about preserving the nice finish on your 700's, which suggest that appearance counts. But then you want to wrap your speakers in plastic wrap, which is not exactly the most attractive decor. I don't understand the goal...
post #3096 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpksv View Post

Thank you all for the replies. I will check out the speaker stands. In addition to that is there a way to fasten them to the wall with something? Pardon me, but I would like to buy floor standing speakers and I am trying to find a way to protect them from the kids.

Also, this might sound a bit crazy, but to protect against scratches is there a way to shrink wrap the entire speaker and then just cut and remove the wrap covering the speaker/grill area? This way the wood portion can be protected and the grill will hopefully protect the speaker area. Any thoughts?

MPK

If you're that worried about damage to your speakers both physically and cosmetically from your kids, I would not even buy the speakers now. Things happen. You might as well not have the speakers if you are looking to do things like strapping the speaker to the wall. Not only will it look odd but will kill all the sound quality you are looking for in purchasing these towers. Your best bet is to look at buying some quality in wall speakers and your problem is essentially solved. That or have your stuff in a dedicated room which you can lock the door on.
post #3097 of 13875
Better keep your speakers in a dedicated theater room out of children's reach.
post #3098 of 13875
Maybe you guys can help me answer a question...

I've got two of these: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70099026

They sit on either side of my TV stand.

Would putting my 685s in these bookcases be detrimental to their sound? I know I could try it and see, but I am buying the speakers today and I want to know if I need to buy the stands or not.
post #3099 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

Maybe you guys can help me answer a question...

I've got two of these: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70099026

They sit on either side of my TV stand.

Would putting my 685s in these bookcases be detrimental to their sound? I know I could try it and see, but I am buying the speakers today and I want to know if I need to buy the stands or not.

Yes, the bookcase will affect the sound of the speakers. It's up to you if the degradation in sound quality is enough to bug you. It's never good to put speakers in enclosures like that without some sort of boundary compensation.
post #3100 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonHung View Post

Yes, the bookcase will affect the sound of the speakers. It's up to you if the degradation in sound quality is enough to bug you. It's never good to put speakers in enclosures like that without some sort of boundary compensation.

That's what I had assumed, but since the flowport on the 685s is in the front I wondered if that would minimize the effect.

What do you mean by "boundary compensation"?

Also, when is it appropriate to put the foam plugs into the flowports on a center channel? I will have my HTM62 placed in a TV stand (this one: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20102516) and there is a decent amount of space behind the speaker, but I'm not sure if that's the purpose of the plugs.
post #3101 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

That's what I had assumed, but since the flowport on the 685s is in the front I wondered if that would minimize the effect.

What do you mean by "boundary compensation"?

Also, when is it appropriate to put the foam plugs into the flowports on a center channel? I will have my HTM62 placed in a TV stand (this one: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20102516) and there is a decent amount of space behind the speaker, but I'm not sure if that's the purpose of the plugs.

The bass port of the speaker is only part of the problem with putting speakers in a cabinet. You have to deal with the issue that now you have an enclosure which now acts part of the speaker baffle/cabinet. In most cases, putting a speaker in a bookcase/entertainment center, what have will most certainly degrade the sound you get out of it. You can do some things like put fiberglass batting in the cavity the speaker sits in but these are just band aid fixes which don't guarantee any positive results. Emotiva has speakers which have an EQ setting which will help audio performance when the speaker is placed in the cavity type situation.

The same issue applies to horizontal center channel speakers which everyone seems to think it's ok to position in a cubby hole.
post #3102 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonHung View Post

The bass port of the speaker is only part of the problem with putting speakers in a cabinet. You have to deal with the issue that now you have an enclosure which now acts part of the speaker baffle/cabinet. In most cases, putting a speaker in a bookcase/entertainment center, what have will most certainly degrade the sound you get out of it. You can do some things like put fiberglass batting in the cavity the speaker sits in but these are just band aid fixes which don't guarantee any positive results. Emotiva has speakers which have an EQ setting which will help audio performance when the speaker is placed in the cavity type situation.

The same issue applies to horizontal center channel speakers which everyone seems to think it's ok to position in a cubby hole.

So I guess I just bought a stand that has an opening that fits my center channel for nothing then?
post #3103 of 13875
I can vouch for the speaker in a cubby hole syndrome. I recently 'finished' my home theater setup where I was able to finally remove my HTM61 center channel from an enclosed area to the 'top shelf' where it is all by it's self in open air. Whole different ball game! It does make a difference. Same speaker, different installation, brand new sound. MUCH better!
post #3104 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

So I guess I just bought a stand that has an opening that fits my center channel for nothing then?

Well, it depends. Many people are happy with the resultant sound they get when a center is placed in these stand openings. Some place the aesthetic considerations ahead (sometimes way ahead) of acoustical performance. The acoustical issues from putting a center in an enclosed opening in a stand might not be enough for you to even take notice. There are going to be acoustical problems with what you're proposing it's how much you care about it is something you have to decide for yourself.
post #3105 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodeye38135 View Post

I can vouch for the speaker in a cubby hole syndrome. I recently 'finished' my home theater setup where I was able to finally remove my HTM61 center channel from an enclosed area to the 'top shelf' where it is all by it's self in open air. Whole different ball game! It does make a difference. Same speaker, different installation, brand new sound. MUCH better!

My concern is that I cannot wall mount the TV right now as I'm not in a location I plan to stay for more than a year or two, so placing the center channel on top of the stand is not an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WonHung View Post

Well, it depends. Many people are happy with the resultant sound they get when a center is placed in these stand openings. Some place the aesthetic considerations ahead (sometimes way ahead) of acoustical performance. The acoustical issues from putting a center in an enclosed opening in a stand might not be enough for you to even take notice. There are going to be acoustical problems with what you're proposing it's how much you care about it is something you have to decide for yourself.

I wouldn't be buying B&W if I was looking to compromise on sound quality. Dammit.
post #3106 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

My concern is that I cannot wall mount the TV right now as I'm not in a location I plan to stay for more than a year or two, so placing the center channel on top of the stand is not an option.


I wouldn't be buying B&W if I was looking to compromise on sound quality. Dammit.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of other things in your setup that probably compromise the sound quality. Its part of the compromises people accept for optimizing the cosmetics of their setup. Most people cannot setup their system to optimize sound quality because it would make the system overtake the room visually rather than allow the room be a living room.
post #3107 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Unfortunately, there are plenty of other things in your setup that probably compromise the sound quality. Its part of the compromises people accept for optimizing the cosmetics of their setup. Most people cannot setup their system to optimize sound quality because it would make the system overtake the room visually rather than allow the room be a living room.

What else compromises sound quality? The fact that I'm not buying a McIntosh electronics setup? That my room isn't perfectly acoustically dead? I guess in the grand scheme of things putting the center in the TV stand won't kill me and, since I expect these speakers to last me for a very long time, I can optimize the setup down the road.

I'll place the center in front of the stand and play through it for a while before I put it in and see how big the sound difference is.

Also, what is the point of the flowport foam plugs? Under what circumstances should they be used?
post #3108 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

What else compromises sound quality? The fact that I'm not buying a McIntosh electronics setup? That my room isn't perfectly acoustically dead? I guess in the grand scheme of things putting the center in the TV stand won't kill me and, since I expect these speakers to last me for a very long time, I can optimize the setup down the road.

I'll place the center in front of the stand and play through it for a while before I put it in and see how big the sound difference is.

Also, what is the point of the flowport foam plugs? Under what circumstances should they be used?

Nah, you don't need a McIntosh electronics setup. When it comes to sound and you have at least decent speakers and decent electronics, the room is the overriding factor for quality.

Do you have right/left symmetry with respect to your listening position? Is your listening position between 33%-38% of the length dimension from either the front or rear wall? Are your speakers more than 4' away from any room boundaries? Do you have a room that has non-integer multiplicative related room dimensions? Have you treated the room with bass absorption? Have you treated the room for general decay time? Many other compromise points, and of course they all differ in their significance.

Putting the center into your stand may only hinder the performance in an acceptable manner to you. If you can keep the front baffle in front of any boundaries and the speaker pointed to your listening position, you can minimize problems due to this compromise that you have accepted. The reason why it can disturb the sound quality is because speakers output sound in all directions. Encasing the speaker in a cabinet causes early reflections of those sound waves - which can disturb the source wave.

The foam plugs are to cause the bass to start rolling off higher in frequency than they normally do. Sometimes, people plug the ports if the speaker is outputting a bit too much bass below 120hz due to any reason.

You don't necessarily want a dead room for good sound. For good multichannel sound, you do want to minimize decay times so that reflections don't muddle with actual source waves from the individual speakers. For a stereo setup, somewhat longer decay times help make the sound more enveloping although it is still desirable to have controlled even decay times across the frequency spectrum.

If you want to learn a little bit more about room acoustics, check out realtraps.com. They have some interesting and education videos on their website that help "normal" people better understand the not-so-well-understood nature of soundwaves in a room. They also have videos explaining comb filtering and boundary effects. These are definitely worth your time to explore if you don't feel like buying and reading a book like the Master Handbook of Acoustics by F.A. Everest ($25 on amazon).
post #3109 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonHung View Post

If you're that worried about damage to your speakers both physically and cosmetically from your kids, I would not even buy the speakers now. Things happen. You might as well not have the speakers if you are looking to do things like strapping the speaker to the wall. Not only will it look odd but will kill all the sound quality you are looking for in purchasing these towers. Your best bet is to look at buying some quality in wall speakers and your problem is essentially solved. That or have your stuff in a dedicated room which you can lock the door on.

Yeah, I am rethinking if I should be going for floor standing speakers. I will probably audition some wall-mountable speakers and see.

BTW, I was wondering if any of you own VM series or LM series speakers. I am new to the speaker world and the impression I got so far is that people who want very high-end quality buy B&W and that means floor standing speakers. I was wondering how popular are the B&W lower-end speakers.

MPK
post #3110 of 13875
hi guys , I just bought a pair of Bowers and wilkins 685 speakers, what receive could I buy for 400 bucks that has a subwoofer exit for my SVS ? thanks!
post #3111 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Nah, you don't need a McIntosh electronics setup. When it comes to sound and you have at least decent speakers and decent electronics, the room is the overriding factor for quality.

Do you have right/left symmetry with respect to your listening position? Is your listening position between 33%-38% of the length dimension from either the front or rear wall? Are your speakers more than 4' away from any room boundaries? Do you have a room that has non-integer multiplicative related room dimensions? Have you treated the room with bass absorption? Have you treated the room for general decay time? Many other compromise points, and of course they all differ in their significance.

Putting the center into your stand may only hinder the performance in an acceptable manner to you. If you can keep the front baffle in front of any boundaries and the speaker pointed to your listening position, you can minimize problems due to this compromise that you have accepted. The reason why it can disturb the sound quality is because speakers output sound in all directions. Encasing the speaker in a cabinet causes early reflections of those sound waves - which can disturb the source wave.

The foam plugs are to cause the bass to start rolling off higher in frequency than they normally do. Sometimes, people plug the ports if the speaker is outputting a bit too much bass below 120hz due to any reason.

You don't necessarily want a dead room for good sound. For good multichannel sound, you do want to minimize decay times so that reflections don't muddle with actual source waves from the individual speakers. For a stereo setup, somewhat longer decay times help make the sound more enveloping although it is still desirable to have controlled even decay times across the frequency spectrum.

If you want to learn a little bit more about room acoustics, check out realtraps.com. They have some interesting and education videos on their website that help "normal" people better understand the not-so-well-understood nature of soundwaves in a room. They also have videos explaining comb filtering and boundary effects. These are definitely worth your time to explore if you don't feel like buying and reading a book like the Master Handbook of Acoustics by F.A. Everest ($25 on amazon).

Thanks! I have made sure that the speakers would have a full 180º unimpeded range in the front and aiming the tweeter at ear level won't be a problem. I guess I'll just have to listen and see. Right now I don't have a lot of flexibility to maximize the acoustics of the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cenerino54 View Post

hi guys , I just bought a pair of Bowers and wilkins 685 speakers, what receive could I buy for 400 bucks that has a subwoofer exit for my SVS ? thanks!

I looked at the Yamaha 663 and Pioneer 1018 before settling on the Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH. Approach your B&W dealer about it. Since you've already given him a good profit on the speakers, he may be willing to cut into his normal markup on the receiver to get closer to your price.
post #3112 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

Thanks! I have made sure that the speakers would have a full 180º unimpeded range in the front and aiming the tweeter at ear level won't be a problem. I guess I'll just have to listen and see. Right now I don't have a lot of flexibility to maximize the acoustics of the room.

The main things you do not want to skim on are the right/left symmetry and the listening position. These will prevent a huge portion of problems.

Right/left symmetry refers to the right and left walls being equidistant from the listening center and the speakers. No open walls to one side for example.

Try for just slightly more than 180 degrees unimpeded range in front of the center. Having the speaker stick out of the stand by even 1cm can help reduce the diffraction of the waves off of the stand.
post #3113 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

The main things you do not want to skim on are the right/left symmetry and the listening position. These will prevent a huge portion of problems.

Right/left symmetry refers to the right and left walls being equidistant from the listening center and the speakers. No open walls to one side for example.

Try for just slightly more than 180 degrees unimpeded range in front of the center. Having the speaker stick out of the stand by even 1cm can help reduce the diffraction of the waves off of the stand.

In this room the TV/speakers won't be dead center, but pretty close, with no big open areas or anything like that. Maybe 8 feet from the left wall to the left front speaker on one side and 6 from the right wall to the right front on the other.
post #3114 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by cenerino54 View Post

hi guys , I just bought a pair of Bowers and wilkins 685 speakers, what receive could I buy for 400 bucks that has a subwoofer exit for my SVS ? thanks!

Any home theater receiver will do. Consider a Onkyo TX-SR606. It will automatically configure itself for 2 speaker use when you run the calibration feature
post #3115 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

In this room the TV/speakers won't be dead center, but pretty close, with no big open areas or anything like that. Maybe 8 feet from the left wall to the left front speaker on one side and 6 from the right wall to the right front on the other.

Actually, that may not be that bad. The asymmetry will affect your imaging somewhat, but at the same time, you will get less modal energy at your listening position. The slight asymmetry can be fixed by using first reflection point absorption.

Where is your listening position with respect to the length of the room? Please don't say "middle" or "back wall"

Next on the list, how far are the speakers from the front wall? If you can manage 2+ feet, you are on your way to improving the upper bass response (due to the reflection against the front wall). The farther the speakers are from the front wall, the lower in frequency you push the reflection. If you get the speakers 4' away from the front wall, the problem will be mostly gone since your subwoofer should be taking care of much of the leg work in this frequency range.
post #3116 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Actually, that may not be that bad. The asymmetry will affect your imaging somewhat, but at the same time, you will get less modal energy at your listening position. The slight asymmetry can be fixed by using first reflection point absorption.

Where is your listening position with respect to the length of the room? Please don't say "middle" or "back wall"

Next on the list, how far are the speakers from the front wall? If you can manage 2+ feet, you are on your way to improving the upper bass response (due to the reflection against the front wall). The farther the speakers are from the front wall, the lower in frequency you push the reflection. If you get the speakers 4' away from the front wall, the problem will be mostly gone since your subwoofer should be taking care of much of the leg work in this frequency range.

My listening position is approximately 10 feet from the front wall and, unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot of room for the speakers to come away from it. I can probably get them about a foot from the wall, but that's about it.
post #3117 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

My listening position is approximately 10 feet from the front wall and, unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot of room for the speakers to come away from it. I can probably get them about a foot from the wall, but that's about it.


If you can pull them out 1' and put some 4" thick acoustic panels behind them, you may be able to vastly diminish this early reflection (a null at apprx 140hz).

Either way, if you really want to get your room to cooperate with your speakers, you will have to contemplate use of room acoustical panels. Again, either gikacoustics.com, realtraps.com has guides to help you setup your equipment optimally.
post #3118 of 13875
Thanks.
post #3119 of 13875
Quote:
Originally Posted by cenerino54 View Post

hi guys , I just bought a pair of Bowers and wilkins 685 speakers, what receive could I buy for 400 bucks that has a subwoofer exit for my SVS ? thanks!

I'd personally recommend the Yamaha 663 from J&R. Find Alex's extension number from their site and mention the AVS forum for a slammin' deal with free fast shipping.
post #3120 of 13875
I need your opinion on something, guys.

I currently use a LCR60 S3 as center with the 602 S3 as mains in my 7.1 set up. I really love my 602's, but I often feel like the LCR60 has trouble keeping up with them. I've been thinking about buying a LCR600, but then it hit me -- Why don't I just buy a pair of 602's and use one as the center channel? I will make use of the other 602, so that's not a problem. What do you guys think, will the LCR600 or another 602 be a better match? I'm leaning toward another 602, because I think having the same speaker in the three front channels would be the ideal combination.

The only concern I have, is that I have to put the 602 on it's side, which it's not made for. Could this cause a problem?

Any advice or thoughts are much appreciated.
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