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B&W Owner's Thread - Page 137

post #4081 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMx Reaper xMx View Post

i know this may be somewhat of a dumb question, but does anyone know anywhere that i could get a pair of either floorstanders or bookshelf B&W speakers for 650 or less?

I'm not sure of exact pricing, but I think the 685 (and definitely the 684) bookshelves can be had for that.

Otherwise, there are lots of used B&Ws that come up on audiogon.
post #4082 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Bi Wiring is a joke as well here is a very interesting article:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_26_r.pdf

Too bad this periodical went out of business!! They spoke to much the truth

I can see why they went out of business. They misnamed it. It should have been called "Cheap Ass Audio."
post #4083 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedge-Hog View Post

crynear,

did you compare the 817s with the 818s? I originally wanted the 817 for surrounds because it has more tilt towards the listener but the wife wouldn't accept the ceiling wart. So I ended up ordering the 818. Do you listen to SACD/DVD-A/etc to hear how they sound?

Thx!

-Hedwig

Hedwig - I am sorry to say, but not a lot of thought went into the living room. The focus was on the media room, and that wasn't going well because the contractor needed to be fired, and the builder ended up getting fired as well. It was a troubled time to be sure. I had given up on any kind of decent sound in that room, but one day I asked the question and shown the 817's. I desperately jumped at the first thing I heard with good sound, and it was really good sound.

The components, and the space are all fairly spartan, so the formats that we listen to in the living room come from the CD/DVD player (not ideal) and the satellite box. A veritible after thought. I understand now, how much I could have extended the listening experience but between toys, cats, and educational television sometimes stereo components take a back seat. Oh the things we do for love.

Aesthetically, I like the rounded look. Surprisingly, the neighbors have volunteered complements on the look as well. So the speakers are not "invisible" if people are noticing them, but the consensus on the look is positive.

Generally, the CCM817's are in the room where "everything" happens and nothing sits still for very long, so it is probably best not to create an expectation for an ideal listening environment until late at night when everyone goes to bed...and that is the final consideration of ceiling speakers: sound transmission. Sound will move along the studs in the ceiling (even with insulation up there), and you can CLEARLY here those speakers throughout the house...and there goes your ability to crank it when everyone goes to bed.

There are trade offs with wall and ceiling speakers, but the sound is undeniably good.
post #4084 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMx Reaper xMx View Post

i know this may be somewhat of a dumb question, but does anyone know anywhere that i could get a pair of either floorstanders or bookshelf B&W speakers for 650 or less?

Retail on the 685's is $650/pr. 686's are $480/pr. I'm guessing they can probably be had at that price or better at any B&W dealer.
post #4085 of 17823
Still looking at Internal speakers.

I stopped by my local Magnolia store and listened to their higher end in-ceiliing speakers by SpeakerCraft. They were the "AIM" series, which I take to be similar to the B&W CCM817's in function. They sounded okay for a movie, but they didn't even come close to acceptable for music.

I found the down-firing front three to be "odd" sounding. It didn't sound right during the movie. Is that because I'm used to the speakers firing in my face? I'm afraid I'll have that feeling, even with the B&W's.

SWMBO says she insists on built-in speakers, but I'm about to tell her "tough luck." It won't go well, but I'll be happy with the speakers.

What do you think of placement? I've attached a diagram of the room. Wood floors, wood shutters over the windows. 9-foot ceilings. I've marked the wall studs in the front wall where the TV is as black boxes inside the yellow/orange walls. I think I'm going to have a hard time with wall mounted speakers, given the stud placement, and the little jut out where the door is. Any advice here is greatly appreciated.

- John
LL
post #4086 of 17823
Ouch...sorry to hear about your house-building ordeal.

Cranking at night won't be an issue since my 4-month old twins live directly above the family room. As long as you think the sound is nice then it should do for surrounds. I'll be using 802D for 2-ch listening anyway.

Thx again.

Cheers.

-H


Quote:
Originally Posted by crynear View Post

Hedwig - I am sorry to say, but not a lot of thought went into the living room. The focus was on the media room, and that wasn't going well because the contractor needed to be fired, and the builder ended up getting fired as well. It was a troubled time to be sure. I had given up on any kind of decent sound in that room, but one day I asked the question and shown the 817's. I desperately jumped at the first thing I heard with good sound, and it was really good sound.

The components, and the space are all fairly spartan, so the formats that we listen to in the living room come from the CD/DVD player (not ideal) and the satellite box. A veritible after thought. I understand now, how much I could have extended the listening experience but between toys, cats, and educational television sometimes stereo components take a back seat. Oh the things we do for love.

Aesthetically, I like the rounded look. Surprisingly, the neighbors have volunteered complements on the look as well. So the speakers are not "invisible" if people are noticing them, but the consensus on the look is positive.

Generally, the CCM817's are in the room where "everything" happens and nothing sits still for very long, so it is probably best not to create an expectation for an ideal listening environment until late at night when everyone goes to bed...and that is the final consideration of ceiling speakers: sound transmission. Sound will move along the studs in the ceiling (even with insulation up there), and you can CLEARLY here those speakers throughout the house...and there goes your ability to crank it when everyone goes to bed.

There are trade offs with wall and ceiling speakers, but the sound is undeniably good.
post #4087 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by hedge-hog View Post

ouch...sorry to hear about your house-building ordeal.

cranking at night won't be an issue since my 4-month old twins live directly above the family room. As long as you think the sound is nice then it should do for surrounds. I'll be using 802d for 2-ch listening anyway.

Thx again.

Cheers.

-h

802d....sweet!
post #4088 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcuxX View Post

Still looking at Internal speakers.

I stopped by my local Magnolia store and listened to their higher end in-ceiliing speakers by SpeakerCraft. They were the "AIM" series, which I take to be similar to the B&W CCM817's in function. They sounded okay for a movie, but they didn't even come close to acceptable for music.

I found the down-firing front three to be "odd" sounding. It didn't sound right during the movie. Is that because I'm used to the speakers firing in my face? I'm afraid I'll have that feeling, even with the B&W's.

SWMBO says she insists on built-in speakers, but I'm about to tell her "tough luck." It won't go well, but I'll be happy with the speakers.

What do you think of placement? I've attached a diagram of the room. Wood floors, wood shutters over the windows. 9-foot ceilings. I've marked the wall studs in the front wall where the TV is as black boxes inside the yellow/orange walls. I think I'm going to have a hard time with wall mounted speakers, given the stud placement, and the little jut out where the door is. Any advice here is greatly appreciated.

- John

That could be a little tricky. Floor standers in the front should work, but you run the risk of tripping over one as you go in and out...remember, it'll be late, you'll be tired...oops. I, personally, (but I'm not an expert) see how in wall speakers will work. By that I mean, you'll be able to spend lots of $'s on stuff, but will you have optimal performance for what you spend? Ceiling speaker can just about anywhere there isn't a light fixture (I know an oversimplification).

IMO, if the speaker sound "odd" it's the WRONG speaker. If you can tell "where" the sound is coming from...it's the WRONG speaker.

The big box stores (I include Magnolia in that category now), have very impressive sounding, but ultimately self serving speakers that are only interested in making themselves sound good and to stand out from the crowd of boom boxes blaring away a few isles over. B&W speakers are more concerned with producing the "real" sound as it was indended...not impressive sound vs the boom box 20 feet away.
post #4089 of 17823
Can anybody give me a good starting point for setting the sub on a pair of 705s? I will be using them in 2 channel direct, only for music on a Dennon 2808 110w. Also would it help to go into the amps program and set any other perimeters or freq levels? I know this is something I will have to play with but I thought some of you who have been there and done that could give me a good base line to start out with.
Thanks
post #4090 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

The controversy over the 61 and 62 on the forum makes it a tough call if you wanna do the 600 series and supposedly the 700 series center isn't all that great either and getting a 800 series center is way more expensive than a lot would wanna spend if you want to keep all the speakers B&W.

I'll probably post my impressions once I get everything. If I'm not happy I'll see if I can talk to dealer to working with me in for the 685 bookshelf or return it and maybe nab one of the replacements some have suggested. Just curious how well do the old 600 series speakers match with the current ones?

There is nothing wrong with the 61, it a very capable center. The 62 sounded a little "small" to me and considering that the 61 is not that much more, you get a speaker that has the fst mid range and more oomph. Further the 61 has the same components as a 685 with just another woofer so if the 685 sounds good, so will the 61. In terms of "off axis" issues, I don't notice it. The only issue that matching the 61 with the 685's that I can see is that sound isn't as seamless with pans across the front sound stage, my thinking is that they may be slight off timbre but certainly nothing earth shattering and close enough.
post #4091 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

There is nothing wrong with the 61, it a very capable center.

Really? Are you aware of the horizontal radiation pattern irregularities due to the design and crossover? But, if you like it, OK.
post #4092 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Really? Are you aware of the horizontal radiation pattern irregularities due to the design and crossover? But, if you like it, OK.

I suppose discussion of A speaker sounds bad and B speaker sounds good is a tough one but like you said in the end if you like it doesn't really matter what everyone thinks as long as you made an informed decision. I'll post my thoughts once I get the 61 center but to be honest out of every speaker I listened to the only brands I liked were B&Ws and the signature series Paradigms. The Paradigms were way more expensive so B&W was my only option and the 600 series was right in my budget. I think if it weren't for B&W I'd probably just give up on the whole speaker hunting as I didn't really find any other speaker as satisfying as B&W's sound.
post #4093 of 17823
Looking to finish my basement with a 7.1 home theatre setup. I want to reuse my existing speakers - B&W CDM7SE fronts and CC6 center. Looking for recommendation on side and rear speakers to compliment. Yamaha 3900 AVR will be powering them. Sides probably have to be ceiling mount based on room. Rears can be on stands or ceiling mount. Room is 12.5' wide x 30' deep with 9 to 10'ceiling height. TV will be Pioneer 60Kuro that we are sitting ~10 - 12' away from. Room has two openings on the right, including one just to the right of the seating area, and the other pretty far to the rear. Something like this - hope the graphic comes out ok.


____________ _________ __________
| |
| |
| S |
| T O |
| V F |
| A |
| |
| |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really like the B&W sound and have been advised that the best thing to do is try and match the sides and the rears to the front and center speakers. Of course mine are ten years old. Advice?
post #4094 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaar View Post

I suppose discussion of A speaker sounds bad and B speaker sounds good is a tough one but like you said in the end if you like it doesn't really matter what everyone thinks as long as you made an informed decision. I'll post my thoughts once I get the 61 center but to be honest out of every speaker I listened to the only brands I liked were B&Ws and the signature series Paradigms. The Paradigms were way more expensive so B&W was my only option and the 600 series was right in my budget. I think if it weren't for B&W I'd probably just give up on the whole speaker hunting as I didn't really find any other speaker as satisfying as B&W's sound.

Very reasonable. My only point is that there is a design flaw in the B&W 61 and you might consider it in your assessment. Using one of the other 600 series speakers in the center, if you can accommodate it, should be considered.
post #4095 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Really? Are you aware of the horizontal radiation pattern irregularities due to the design and crossover? But, if you like it, OK.

Great, then what should "horizontal radiation pattern irregularities" sound like? I am having a heard time discerning what is supposed be wrong with the sound.
post #4096 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

Great, then what should "horizontal radiation pattern irregularities" sound like? I am having a heard time discerning what is supposed be wrong with the sound.

If you are talking about the HTM61, the notion is that the sound image would appear off-center due to the midrange being to one side rather than in the exact center. Some people have reported hearing this effect.

If you are talking about the HTM62, the notion is that since it is an MTM design, there is quite a bit of lobbing effect due to the two midrange drivers playing the same material but being separated from each other. Lobbing is when you move your head (or sit in a different chair) certain frequencies will cancel out leaving you in the null and unable to understand the dialog coming from the speaker.

If you are talking about the CMC2, this is one of the least compromised horizontal center channel designs, a WMTW setup, where the mid and tweeter are centered and both are flanked by the bass drivers. Since the bass drivers are crossed over low enough from the midrange, the lobbing effect is minimized. However, when compared to a vertical speaker with WWMT arrangement, the imaging on the horizontal plane (as you move across the couch off center from the speaker) will be inferior.

For many people, the horizontal WMTW array is quite good and the "end of the road". For those that demand the best in front stage uniformity, they would need the front 3 speakers to be identical and setup in the exact same height. For example, 3x 804s speakers up front behind an acoustically-perforated screen instead of 2x 804s and HTM3s.

W = Woofer, bass driver
M = midrange driver
T = tweeter
post #4097 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

If you are talking about the HTM61, the notion is that the sound image would appear off-center due to the midrange being to one side rather than in the exact center. Some people have reported hearing this effect.

Nope.

Quote:
If you are talking about the HTM62, the notion is that since it is an MTM design, there is quite a bit of lobbing effect due to the two midrange drivers playing the same material but being separated from each other. Lobbing is when you move your head (or sit in a different chair) certain frequencies will cancel out leaving you in the null and unable to understand the dialog coming from the speaker.

The problem is the same with both. There are dispersion irregularities due to the interaction of drivers, spaced more than 1/2 wavelength apart in the horizontal plane, reproducing the same signals. This occurs with MTMs and, also, with horizontally arrayed TMW or, in the case of the 61, MTW. Doesn't matter.

Quote:
If you are talking about the CMC2, this is one of the least compromised horizontal center channel designs, a WMTW setup, where the mid and tweeter are centered and both are flanked by the bass drivers. Since the bass drivers are crossed over low enough from the midrange, the lobbing effect is minimized.

Yup.

Quote:
However, when compared to a vertical speaker with WWMT arrangement, the imaging on the horizontal plane (as you move across the couch off center from the speaker) will be inferior.

Yup. Vertical arrays have the same irregularities and interferences but in the vertical plane, which makes it less pernicious.

Quote:
For many people, the horizontal WMTW array is quite good and the "end of the road". For those that demand the best in front stage uniformity, they would need the front 3 speakers to be identical and setup in the exact same height. For example, 3x 804s speakers up front behind an acoustically-perforated screen instead of 2x 804s and HTM3s.

W = Woofer, bass driver
M = midrange driver
T = tweeter

Yup.
post #4098 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

Great, then what should "horizontal radiation pattern irregularities" sound like? I am having a heard time discerning what is supposed be wrong with the sound.

Moving your head from side to side, you should hear image position and tonal shifts.
post #4099 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Very reasonable. My only point is that there is a design flaw in the B&W 61 and you might consider it in your assessment. Using one of the other 600 series speakers in the center, if you can accommodate it, should be considered.

Design flaw? With all due respect, but that might be a tad bit strong. B&W can, and does, make better center channels than the 61. So each series must be designed to perform to certain exacting specifications. Wouldn't a design flaw suggest that the speaker fails to live up to these desired specifications?
post #4100 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

If you are talking about the HTM61, the notion is that the sound image would appear off-center due to the midrange being to one side rather than in the exact center. Some people have reported hearing this effect.

If you are talking about the HTM62, the notion is that since it is an MTM design, there is quite a bit of lobbing effect due to the two midrange drivers playing the same material but being separated from each other. Lobbing is when you move your head (or sit in a different chair) certain frequencies will cancel out leaving you in the null and unable to understand the dialog coming from the speaker.

If you are talking about the CMC2, this is one of the least compromised horizontal center channel designs, a WMTW setup, where the mid and tweeter are centered and both are flanked by the bass drivers. Since the bass drivers are crossed over low enough from the midrange, the lobbing effect is minimized. However, when compared to a vertical speaker with WWMT arrangement, the imaging on the horizontal plane (as you move across the couch off center from the speaker) will be inferior.

For many people, the horizontal WMTW array is quite good and the "end of the road". For those that demand the best in front stage uniformity, they would need the front 3 speakers to be identical and setup in the exact same height. For example, 3x 804s speakers up front behind an acoustically-perforated screen instead of 2x 804s and HTM3s.

W = Woofer, bass driver
M = midrange driver
T = tweeter

Well, thankfully I sit in one place when I watch movies so that is why perhaps things don't sound off to me. And, wouldn't the problems you are describing be indigenous to most horizontal centers?
post #4101 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

Well, thankfully I sit in one place when I watch movies so that is why perhaps things don't sound off to me.

And you never move. OK.

Quote:
And, wouldn't the problems you are describing be indigenous to most horizontal centers?

Yup. A horizontal design is, in and of itself, an accommodation to aesthetics, convenience and naivety and is a poor acoustic design. Have you noticed that virtually all competent stand-alone speakers are vertical arrays, even from the same companies that make horizontal centers?
post #4102 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by crynear View Post

Design flaw? With all due respect, but that might be a tad bit strong. B&W can, and does, make better center channels than the 61. So each series must be designed to perform to certain exacting specifications. Wouldn't a design flaw suggest that the speaker fails to live up to these desired specifications?

Nope. Look, I use B&Ws in my main system and I have great respect for their engineering but this is an unfortunate design, on a purely technical level. Some have no problem with it, many do. See the comments here: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speaker...8bw/index.html
post #4103 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

And you never move. OK.

Yup. A horizontal design is, in and of itself, an accommodation to aesthetics, convenience and naivety and is a poor acoustic design. Have you noticed that virtually all competent stand-alone speakers are vertical arrays, even from the same companies that make horizontal centers?

Well that is good for me to know because I was thinking this was just a B&W issue, it seemed like the htm 61 was being targeted as being especially bad when it seems like you are saying that it suffers from the same issues indigenous to most horizontal speakers.

I can live with that because I have owned alot of center channel speakers and have never sat completely still and have never noticed an issue with the sound being off. Obviously with your critically trained ear I am sure that you are thrown off more easily and have tighter tolerances.
post #4104 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

Well that is good for me to know because I was thinking this was just a B&W issue, it seemed like the htm 61 was being targeted as being especially bad when it seems like you are saying that it suffers from the same issues indigenous to most horizontal speakers.

Well, it is indigenous to less expensive center speakers but the 61 is a little more annoying than most. By putting the mid and woofer on opposite sides of the tweeter, creating a seeming symmetry, they have separated them much more than they should have. No worse, in performance, than a horizontal MTM but, given that this is a 3way, they missed opportunity to make it TMW (and WMT). Unfortunately, they probably thought that the untutored buyer would object to the lack of apparent symmetry and, in that, they would probably be right.

Quote:
I can live with that because I have owned alot of center channel speakers and have never sat completely still and have never noticed an issue with the sound being off. Obviously with your critically trained ear I am sure that you are thrown off more easily and have tighter tolerances.

Right. That's just fine. I feel obligated to point this out and if, after hearing me out, you are not troubled by it, that is OK with me.
post #4105 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Nope. Look, I use B&Ws in my main system and I have great respect for their engineering but this is an unfortunate design, on a purely technical level. Some have no problem with it, many do. See the comments here: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speaker...8bw/index.html

I can respect that, but it seems that every negative opinion of the 61 sources from this single article. So taken at face value, if one could fit a third 683 in the center position underneath the TV/Screen/whatever then that would be considered preferable?

How about if one were to position the 61 vertically instead of horizontally...would that be better?
post #4106 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, it is indigenous to less expensive center speakers but the 61 is a little more annoying than most. By putting the mid and woofer on opposite sides of the tweeter, creating a seeming symmetry, they have separated them much more than they should have. No worse, in performance, than a horizontal MTM but, given that this is a 3way, they missed opportunity to make it TMW (and WMT). Unfortunately, they probably thought that the untutored buyer would object to the lack of apparent symmetry and, in that, they would probably be right.

Right. That's just fine. I feel obligated to point this out and if, after hearing me out, you are not troubled by it, that is OK with me.

Well, as an untutored buyer with a very aesthetically tutored wife, a single bookshelf would look kind of odd sitting on top of the TV so I understand why something not harmoniously correct is appealing. I always considered myself fairly sensitive to speaker mismatches as I can discern the tonal differences from my M&K rears and my B&W fronts. I also picked up that there is a slight tonal difference with pans across the front with the 685's mated with the HTM61. With that said, after owning very pricey centers from Dynaudio and Revel, I always felt that if a center was crisp, threw a wide soundstage and blended with the mains, there isn't too much to pick on if you are a fan mostly of films, maybe multi channel music is a different story. Look, as much as you probably are technically on point with your assessment, in the real world for most listeners, I dont see the horizontal center as a dagger in the heart of a good soundstage.

Moreover, I am sure that with B&W's pedigree, they know what they are doing to the extent that they would not roll out a comparatively flawed product. With the HTM61 for only around $500, you are getting a pretty hefty speaker with a refined tweeter and fst mid range, certainly not the end all be all of speakers but in light of the noted flaws associated with all horizontal speaker, the HTM61 can be a reasonable partner for those with B&W mains.
post #4107 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by crynear View Post

I can respect that, but it seems that every negative opinion of the 61 sources from this single article. So taken at face value, if one could fit a third 683 in the center position underneath the TV/Screen/whatever then that would be considered preferable?

How about if one were to position the 61 vertically instead of horizontally...would that be better?

It is from a single article and I think the 61 is getting a bad rap. I have an issue when it is represented that the 61 is flawed when the crux of the matter is that most horizontal centers are flawed based on this orientation.
post #4108 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by crynear View Post

I can respect that, but it seems that every negative opinion of the 61 sources from this single article.

My criticism is home-grown as I have made the same point about many traditional center speakers. I must admit that I have spoken with Tom about the 61 and we do agree about it but I quote him because it is easier than writing it out myself.

Quote:
So taken at face value, if one could fit a third 683 in the center position underneath the TV/Screen/whatever then that would be considered preferable?

IMHO, yes. Now, my primary criteria are accurate tonal matching and uniform soundstage/imaging because I am, primarily, interested in music. Some have suggested that the power handling of the center speaker should be equally important because, for HT, it carries more of the load than the L/R. So, I can anticipate counter arguments.

Quote:
How about if one were to position the 61 vertically instead of horizontally...would that be better?

Better but still less closely matched to the L/R than a third identical speaker, of course.
post #4109 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

It is from a single article and I think the 61 is getting a bad rap. I have an issue when it is represented that the 61 is flawed when the crux of the matter is that most horizontal centers are flawed based on this orientation.

True. I have not restrained myself from making this criticism generally and in print but, somehow, the HTM61 seems to draw the most fire. Mebbe because we expect better from B&W.
post #4110 of 17823
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

Well, as an untutored buyer with a very aesthetically tutored wife, a single bookshelf would look kind of odd sitting on top of the TV so I understand why something not harmoniously correct is appealing. I always considered myself fairly sensitive to speaker mismatches as I can discern the tonal differences from my M&K rears and my B&W fronts. I also picked up that there is a slight tonal difference with pans across the front with the 685's mated with the HTM61. With that said, after owning very pricey centers from Dynaudio and Revel, I always felt that if a center was crisp, threw a wide soundstage and blended with the mains, there isn't too much to pick on if you are a fan mostly of films, maybe multi channel music is a different story. Look, as much as you probably are technically on point with your assessment, in the real world for most listeners, I dont see the horizontal center as a dagger in the heart of a good soundstage.

Moreover, I am sure that with B&W's pedigree, they know what they are doing to the extent that they would not roll out a comparatively flawed product. With the HTM61 for only around $500, you are getting a pretty hefty speaker with a refined tweeter and fst mid range, certainly not the end all be all of speakers but in light of the noted flaws associated with all horizontal speaker, the HTM61 can be a reasonable partner for those with B&W mains.

We each have our particular needs and standards. I find almost all horizontal centers flawed in performance but, as you imply, I am interested more in music reproduction than in HT. It is with a great sense of the quixotic nature of my effort that I continue to point this out.
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