B&W Owner's Thread - Page 32

Hope you all don't mind me weighing in on this topic...no special aganda. So here goes:

My setup: B&W 802D's, Krell amps, and blah, blah, blah. Monster Sigma speaker cables purchased in 1990, at $800 for an 8' pair.

Jeez, I hate the whole speaker cable debate, but I have found that most expensive speaker cables (arbitrarily > $300 per 8' run) usually act as passive tone controls. I also believe the sonic differences to be VERY real, but in the end not too important unless something bad is going on, such as a truncated top end, or possibly a lack of pitch definition in the bottom 2 octaves.

I really got disgusted playing the tweaking game years ago, so I just kept the sigma cables in place. These comments have me curious enough to revisit the subject, so for the cost of some cheap zip cord, I think I'll give it a try, and send another reply earliest convenience.

All that said, I've read that B&W does in fact use Straight Wire speaker cable in their listening tests. That's not cheap stuff, by any stretch. It also appears to be true that many speaker manufacturers agree that certain cables are more synergistic with their product. Hard to say whether or not there is any REALLY GOOD way to verify any of this nonsense

Finally, the only axe I have to grind in this or any of the AVS forums is with the tweakazoids who continually blast B&W as being "mass market" speakers. I got news for you, there is no such thing as a $12,000 mass market speaker!! So take your esoteric flavor of the month audio snob speakers that won't play beyond 85db (in room) and stuff them where the sun doesn't shine There! I feel much better now.

Chick Dishong
Industry Insider (Don't ask)

Sound Anchors has this stand for the HTM7 (et al.): Sound Anchors center channel stand.

LOL

I guess I will weigh in on the speaker wire issue.

I spent a ridiculous amount on some of my speaker wire and don't find any monumental difference. I haven't tried A/B testing them carefully, let alone DBTing them either. I just unplugged my old monster cables and plugged in the new Nordost Frey cables and didn't notice anything different.

I wish I spent the money on something else, but what can I do at this point? Truth is, it won't make or break me financially, though I'm a little sore (pride wise) that I might have been ripped off, mislead, hoodwinked, bamboozled, and led astray (to borrow from Malcolm X's speech in the Spike Lee movie of his namesake) by people inside, outside, or working for parts of the industry whether in terms of publicated periodical employees (not Kal... I've never asked him about his opinion on this issue - I'm referring to reading articles in magazines, editorials, etc), audio store employees/owners, or everyday Joe's posting on this forum.

Still, I've never done any careful enough listening or testing to be certain of either side of the argument. I do know that when I switched from my Monster cable to Nordost Frey cable, which carry a ridiculous overhead in price between the two, that I didn't notice any changes jump out at me at all. So I do feel that for the price, some of these cable manufacturer's should be prosecuted for their false claims if it can be proven that they are false claims and proven that they are making false claims. My Nordost cables amount to very expensive audio jewelry in my limited experience, and you can be sure I didn't go back and buy more of it when I built my HT room and needed cable installed in the walls. I went with something much cheaper... Though I didn't go with Home Depot or other extremely cheap cabling either, as I am a little superstitious and can afford to spend a little extra for nicer looking cables that likewise cover all the bases (both oxygen-free copper and a layer of silver...). Besides, the cables do look nice as well, though the Nordost cables do look nicer IMO, they just aren't worth the extra money.

I'm going to audition the HTM2D and the HTM3S in the next few days. My setup will be used for almost entirely home theater and I want really good center channel performance as I'm sick of muddy, unclear dialog. How much difference should I expect from these two centers? Obviously, the specs are quite a bit different. Any recommended movies for such a demo?

Thanks,
Chris

It would help to know what speakers you will be using the center channel with. If you have the 803D, 802D, 801D or 800D, then it would make sense to have the HTM2D. Otherwise, having the Diamond tweeter makes little sense.

Thanks for the quick reply. I guess I should clarify I'm starting from scratch here. I'm beginning with the center and then I'll match whatever I need to match for the center I like.

Thanks,
Chris

Well, if you are set on B&Ws then I would go for the HTM2D and get a pair of front speakers from the Diamond series, as long as you don't mind spending the cash for the 803Ds on upwards.

If you mind spending the cash on the 803Ds or upwards from there, then I would get the HTM3S and one of the non-Diamond 800 series speakers. It really depends on if you have a set budget or not, since the Diamond series sees a large jump in price compared to the regular 800 series speakers. If price is no object, then why not go with the Diamonds? Just be aware of your room size in that case, so you don't go buying something too large or too small for the room. I would be careful of putting an 802D or higher in too small a room and careful of putting an 803D in too large a room.

LOL - well, of course, if money was no object, then I would just go with the 803Ds. I guess my question is: What is the marginal center channel performance increase from the HTM3S -> HTM2D. I know it will be better, but how much? Are there any particular movies people thing would maximize the different to help me decide.

Cheers,
Chris

The major difference is the Diamond tweeter. The Rohacell cone bass is a half inch smaller (6.5" instead of 7") on the HTM3S as well. The dimensions are smaller on the HTM3S. I don't see the point in getting a Diamond center channel if you don't plan on putting Diamond left and right front speakers next to it as they will not be timbre or tonally matched, which is important in creating a seamless sound field. This is less of an issue with surround speakers since usually the surrounds are only used for ambience, but it is fairly critical for the center channel, so I would base your decision more on what left and right channel speakers you plan to purchase so you can create a virtually seamless sound field in the front.

Here are the Technical Specifications from the B&W website:

Technical Specifications : HTM2D

Description
3-way magnetically shielded vented-box system
Dimensions
Height: 329mm (13 in)
Width: 841mm (33.1 in)
Depth: 387mm (15.2 in)
Net Weight
31kg (68 lb)
Freq. Response
41Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range
-6dB at 35Hz and 33kHz
Sensitivity
90dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
Normal Impedance
8 ohms (minimum 3.1 ohms)
Power Handling
50W - 300W into 8 ohms on unclipped programme
Drive Units
Unit 1: 1x 25mm (1 in) diamond dome high-frequency
Unit 2: 1x 150mm (6 in) woven Kevlar® cone FST midrange
Unit 3: 2x 180mm (7 in) Rohacell® cone bass
Finish
Cabinet: Real wood veneers of Cherrywood, Rosenut or Black Ash
Grille: Black cloth
Dispersion
Description: Within 2dB of reference response
Horizontal: over 60º arc
Vertical: over 10º arc
Harmonic Distortion
2nd and 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<1% 80Hz - 100kHz
<0.5% 100Hz - 100kHz
Crossover Frequency
350Hz, 4kHz
Max. Recommended Cable Impedance
0.1 ohms

Technical Specifications : HTM3S

Description
3-way closed-box system
Dimensions
Height: 320mm (12.6 in)
Width: 783mm (30.8 in)
Depth: 316mm (12.4 in)
Net Weight
28kg (62 lb)
Freq. Response
42Hz - 22kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range
-6dB at 35Hz and 50kHz
Sensitivity
90dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
Normal Impedance
8 ohms (minimum 3.2 ohms)
Power Handling
50W - 250W into 8 ohms on unclipped programme
Drive Units
Unit 1: 1x 25mm (1 in) aluminium dome high-frequency
Unit 2: 1x 150mm (6 in) woven Kevlar® cone FST midrange
Unit 3: 2x 165mm (6.5 in) Rohacell® cone bass
Finish
Cabinet: Real wood veneers of Cherrywood, Rosenut or Black Ash
Grille: Black cloth
Dispersion
Description: Within 2dB of reference response
Horizontal: over 60º arc
Vertical: over 10º arc
Harmonic Distortion
2nd and 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<1% 100Hz - 22kHz
<0.5% 120Hz - 20kHz
Crossover Frequency
350Hz, 4kHz
Max. Recommended Cable Impedance
0.1 ohms

I was wondering if you heard the new JM Lab Chorus 826v's at Tweeters there. I'm thinking about getting the B&W cm7's but there's not way listen to them first. I was wondering how the two compared....... http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/artic...AN/922/v/1/sp/

I have heard the 826v's myself and didn't care for the top end, but the overall performance was quite nice (there was a lot to like) but I have become intimate with the CM7's (wait till you see the pictures of us naked ) as I am a dealer (bias here) and I am very , very pleased with the CM7's....I am working on a shootout as I have friends at the Tweet. I will let you know, but it could be a while.

Hi Chris: Depending on the source material, you may or may not perceive a substantial difference between the D series and the S series Center channel speaker. I did the same audition, and found that the D series center channel speakers has a somewhat better extended top end. Put another way, a little sweeter, smoother, with better low level detail.

Worth the difference? Kinda' hard to say. Amplifiers can make a difference. If you are using a very high quality amp, versus something more middle of the road, the difference will be greater when comparing the two models. I ended up with HTM1D. In any case the HTM's require lots of power to perform well.

For source material, I'd recommend the HDDVD Dolby True HD track on King Kong. It has lots of very subtle detail, that should help point out the difference between the D & S series.

Good Luck!

Chick Dishong
Industry Insider (Don't ask)

Any harmonic overtones in the ranges where the two center channel speakers differ the most (the tweeters) are going to have different qualities, which means you will have different timbre and tone for any instrument that has output in those ranges. Most instruments don't have fundamentals in the high frequency ranges so differences will be subtle, but still noticable. Whatever you choose, I would highly suggest you stick with that range of speaker all around to preserve the character of the recording between the speakers (i.e. if you like the Diamond center better, go with all Diamonds, etc). You won't have the same kind of difference occuring between different sized drivers of the same material as you will between totally different materials being used, like the difference between the S and D series 800 speakers. IMO, having the same character between the speakers is much more important than whether you go with the D or S series (of course, if you can blow the money on the D series, I wouldn't argue against it - IMO they sound better enough).

Though, if you are doing this setup purely for HT and are not going to listen to music critically, I wouldn't waste your money on the D series, it would be overkill IMO as the video immersion factor, plot, and other features in a movie/show will likely take a front seat to any sound differences, i.e. your mind will be too busy focusing on other things to notice the subtle sound qualities (I think someone once said that HT is 75% video and 25% audio, or something to that effect, in terms of where concentration gets focused normally). Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I hate to see someone mix and match items if it doesn't make sense to do so (pet peeve...).

No I haven't. I actually did buy the CM 7s sight unheard (if that really a phrase) because my dealer didn't stock them at the time.

I should probably post my "final" impressions of the CM7s after living with them for a while. In short: they are now in the bedroom being driven by a Crown K1 amp which is connected to a Yamaha reciever I am using as a pre/pro. Source material comes from a D* HR20-700 (great for XM radio), a Sony upconverting DVD for video and a Sony SACD player for music. I've also thrown a Velodyne CHT 12 sub into the system and that just about does it for me in terms of satisfaction.

The bedroom has a lot more sound absorbing things in it, and has tamed the enthusiastic high end of the CM 7s just enough, without losing detail.

I too just purchased a pair of CM7s and a CMC for a bedroom home theatre setup. The CM7s have grown on me to easily have become my favorite pair of speakers in the house. (and that is saying alot). I will say that positioning them is key, maybe because of the dispersion range, but once set properly have a clear, unbiased sound that compares favorably with the 700s, if not even better. . .

Glad you are enjoying them.

Positioning is important not only because of dispersion, but also because of the port being in the back. I've also found that experimenting with the port plug has produced some interesting results. At first I had them out, then in, now back out again. Closer to a wall, probably in is best. Out from a wall, removed sounds better (to me. YMMV).

Even though I am using a sub with them, before I hooked it up I was actually very surprised how much clean bass these little guys were able to put out.

Hoping to become a B&W owner next week.

With 947 replies to the original question it may have been covered, but I have a question about B&W loudspeakers/owners. As an observer of EBay I have noticed a lot of recent B&W loudspeakers for sale especially the 600 series. Why do so many of these loudspeakers show up for resale? I've long admired B&W loudspeakers, so I mean no disrespect to you B&W owners out there. Is it the quantity that they pump into the states that makes it seem a large amount? Could it be former JBL and Cerwin Vega owners looking to upgrade but not liking what they hear?

When you sell a lot of speakers, there are generally a lot for resale. Further, people upgrade all the time; the 600 series is a decent starting point but there's a lot of room for improvement. You don't see a lot of Nautilus speakers for sale, do you?

New series comming out soon.

One thing that I've noticed is that the used B&W 600 series (of which I have 602's) have quite a good resale value. I see them go on eBay for over $350 on a regular basis. Not bad, especially since many of them are the older Series 2.

And a quick comparison shows an equal number of B&W auctions being completed as Klipsch, both of which are a fraction of the JBL sales (though I didn't filter JBL down at all).

Hi Everybody, I am embarrassed to ask but...I have been following this site for some time, as I am building my home theater and whole house audio. I am registered, but have not joined the club
I have searched the site, but cannot figure out how to post my questions! Please advise!
Judy

Judy,
You're a Swedish Doctor? Are you a 6' Blonde?

nevermind...upper corner of the forum list there is a box that says "new thread"....click on it

Judy: If you look near the top of this page, you'll see these words:
AVS Forum > Audio Area > Speakers > B&W Owner's Thread
...indicating that under the main menu for the forums, which is located here, there is a sub-heading called Audio Area, and inside the Audio Area is another sub-heading called Speakers. This thread is called "B&W Owner's Thread." To add a message to this thread, click either of the "Post Reply" buttons, which are located near the top and bottom of this page. Then enter the title of your message where indicated, and the text of your message. When you're done, click the "Submit Reply" to post your message within the B&W Owner's Thread. Is that what you wanted to do?

If, on the other hand you want to start a completely new thread within the Speakers area (which would be up one level in this forum's menu tree), then scroll up near the top of this page to those words
AVS Forum > Audio Area > Speakers > B&W Owner's Thread
...and this time click Speakers. You'll get to a page that has a "New Thread" button near the top.

Why did you pick our thread to ask this off-topic question?!

I think we should be only too glad to make newcomers feel welcome here. Figuring out how to post messages where you want is a good thing for a newcomer to know, and I don't see that the FAQ even covers this very basic topic.

Good for you. I'll be sure they honor you at the AVS Forums old-timer of the year award ceremony.

It still doesn't answer my question as to why she singled out this thread out of the other few hundred (or thousand even) to ask that question...

Because she was impressed with the high level of discussion on this thread and assumed we would have the requisite technical expertise.

Heheh... That will show her for making such outrageous assumptions. Why, half of us posting here still don't even know how to make posts, let alone our own threads.