Anyone w/HDMI-DVI & fw 2.0 and NOT have Black Crush?

OK, first: Whatever you are experiencing has NOTHING to do physically with cable or converter. Any cable or cable/converter combo which works in the sense that it gives you image, will give you EXACTLY this same image. Personally I have never had problems with either DVD or HDMI cables, although I had on occasion problems with analog cables (both audio and video), and I was in the audio/video/TV business for many years.
Now, to the next step: so called "black crush" is generally caused by incorrect gamma, and it is NOT possible to eliminate it by adjusting B and C, even though you can make the image look subjectively "better". If you CAN make appropriate adjustments (like you are mentioning), can you stick to them? Do you use multiple sources on single DVI input, so then you have to make adjustment each time you switch? Or does your TV have only one memory for ALL inputs? That would be real bummer, but most have at least one memory PER input. Well. if you can, than use something like DVE Calibration Disk to set B/C and just leave it at that. Even if in your settings you don't see "BTB" signal (NOTHING TO DO WITH BLACK CRUSH!), you can still set the levels correctly, it's just little more difficult, and little less accurate. By the way, calibration is ESSENTIAL! You will never experience full potential of HD-DVD without it. I wouldn't recommend full ISFing your TV, it's expensive, but certainly you can do a lot yourself...
Just as general explanation: to understand the whole issue better you have to keep in mind that both DVI and HDMI are INTELIGENT connections. You also have to distinguish between physical connectors and communications protocols and setting running on them. Case in point: I have A1 hooked-up to LumagenHDP Video Processor, physically it's A1(HDMI) -> Lumagen(DVI) connection, BUT Lumagen has adjustable settings which let user set-up DVI input so it "LOOKS" to source (in this case A1) as HDMI "target", so it sort of tricks A1 to use different video settings, in this case avoiding all the problems with color space, levels etc.
By the way, just to make things more complicated, there are different implementations of DVI on different pieces of equipment, generally some of them "VIDEO" (usually on consumer level video gear) and PC mostly for Computer Monitors and such. Those differences create all the confusion, because depending on individual combination, some people experience problems and some don't, even though they all have seemingly this same HDMI->DVI connection!
Did I confuse you enough?
By the way, Lumagen WOULD solve a lot of problems for you, but it is rather expensive solution, at about $1500.00 MSRP at the minimum, about 1k used.

Kris

I dont have DVI to directly respond to this problem but I do have one of the AVS members who is an ISF calibrator coming out to my house today. He is familar with HD DVD and I can ask him today and see what he says.

2.0 definitely has a black level problem if your display requests RGB. Displays that request YCbCr have not had a black level problem. DVI is RGB only so it will have the problem. With most displays you can just alter brightness to correct for this, but shared inputs will be a problem.

I have a 65" RPTV w/component only.

When I installed 2.0, my pic became darker (IMO) and now it states at the bottom of the screen and lasts for about 2 minutes and then disappears:

"Check connections or power. The connections for RGBHV or YPrPb maybe invalid."

What the heck does that mean???

By the way, nothing happens to the pic, it plays fine.

Will I have this problem? I am getting an A1 but I am using Hdmi-Dvi-Hdmi, simply because I had dvi run through my ceiling when I originally had a benq projector.

Cables don't matter, they are passive. If you have a HDMI or DVI switch, you'll just have to see what happens. If your display has HDMI input you "should" be ok (with a direct connection).

larry

I dont get black crush with my Optoma Projector. Looks like it accepts YCbCr coming in not RGB which as was mentioned helps.

That's a TV issue. The component video timings or voltages may be slightly out of spec with what the TV expects.

larry

What the hell is "black crush"?

It's an inability of display (for whatever reason) to produce distinct levels of gray in response to video signal levels representing those values, effectively lumping shadow details of the image into uniform black or semi-black mass. Subjectively it produces effect of dark image, but since it is often consequence of incorrect low level gamma, cranking-up brightness, even though it makes image brighter overall, does not bring-up significant amount of detail in the shadows.

I don't have this issue on my XA1 using 2.0. I use a monoprice M1-DA to HDMI cable for my Infocus 333.
Cheers

V1.0 and V1.2 allowed those ending up with RGB (not YCbCr) to remain at video levels.

V1.4 and V2.0 provides RGB at PC levels thus giving the impression of "black crush" if you don't compensate by changing the display settings.

This impacts most DVI displays and even some HDMI displays if the EDID negotiation ends up telling the A1 to send RGB instead of YCbCr.

It is possible to utilize YCbCr over a DVI connection but this seems to be very uncommon. My Lumagen scaler can do it and before V2.0 I was utilizing YCbCr without a problem with the A1. V2.0 "broke" the EDID functionality however and now I can only get 422 YCbCr with HD DVD and SD DVD forces RGB at PC levels.

Small correction, cpcat. Component video is YCbCr in the digtial domain and YPbPr when analog. Too many abbreviations to keep straight.

larry

So how does one correct the "incorrect low level gamma"? Is professional calibration needed?

Thanks for emphasizing "impression" ! I think your explanation is far more concise than mine... As you of course noticed, concept of "black crush" is probably one of most misunderstood here, and it adds to total confusion when people pick up the word they just learned, and use it wily nilly...
I tried to clarify this issue number of time, with limited success...
I think it's worth stating one more time: IF YOUR CONFIGURATION GIVES YOU PC LEVEL SIGNAL (INSTEAD OF VIDEO), IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE BLACK CRUSH, AND YOUR PQ IS DEGRADED IN ANY WAY!!! You need to adjust your display to compensate for it, which is inconvenience, but if you have multiple input memories available, it's one time job. As I stated before "real" black crush is something else altogether, and CANNOT be eliminated by simple brightness adjustment.

As for Lumagen: I use HDP and I love it dearly, also for its 11 point gamma correction, which I find indispensable, speciallly with CRT FP (Marquee 8000, partially modified). By the way, if you didn't, install latest firmware, it will let you set different input settings (RGB vs Component 422) for A and B memories of given input, making running A1 a lot easier.

Kris

Good question... and as most of them, it doesn't have simple answer .
There is number of factors involved, two important ones being:
1. Your perception of quality - are you willing to make an effort and/or spend money?
2. Quality and cost of your display: Does it make sense to spend several hundred dollars to calibrate it?
If you are DIYer, first of all, get DVE (HD-DVD version is coming to the market at 28th, I think), do basic calibration. If you haven't done it before, you WILL be surprised at the improvement, I am sure.
If you think you need more, again: If you are DIYer, you can buy equipment (hardware + software, anywhere from $300.00 up) and fiddle with it yourself, it's not THAT difficult... On the oter hand, you can hire pro, again for anywhere from $300.00, and be done with it... Good pro calibration is hard to beat, adn or expensive display it certainly makes sense. Just research who you are dealing with, including their experience with particular display technology.

Have fun,

Kris

Maybe we should stick to: NON-RGB?

Kris

Are you sure because I didn't think DVI could pass YCbCr?

I don't have BC with my HD10K's DVI input but I do have a cheat. I send the HDMI YCbCr to my iScan VP50 and it converts to DVI RGB with no BC.

Thanks, but I was referring specifically to whether a pro is needed (or pro equipment, if DIY) to correct the problem of black crush or incorrect gamma, not about the benefits of pro calibration in general. I've done the Avia thing, and now black crush is the only thing I have a problem with.

The "spec" says RGB only. DVI uses the same underlying transport as HDMI so you can send anything you want as long as both ends are "in agreement". I have a DVD player with DVI output that can send YCbCr.

larry

Well, I think I answered it... Of course you are past DVE already, so now, as I stated before, YOU have to decide if you feel confident and comfortable enough to do it yourself (gave you some idea how much you would have to spend at minimum for equipment), or you just want it to be done, and enjoy results... Nobody but you can answer this question...

Kris

Yes you are correct, sorry.

I'll edit.

With my set (Pioneer Elite 630HD with DVI) if I bring up the DVE test screen with the pluge with the gray scale bars shown I can adjust my picture (brightness) control all the way out and I still cannot bring in the darkest outermost bars. I run out of picture control before I can make things right.

If I use the same disc same TV with my Oppo 971 hooked up via DVI it adjusts correctly and right in the middle of the TV's picture controls.

Jim

Best discussion of this issue I have seen. Congrats to all involved.

I also don't have the issue with an Infocus projector going through the M1 which is said to be DVI on the inside.

Check to see if there is a "PC" vs. "video" setting or maybe a "high" vs. "low" setting in your display's setup menu for the DVI input.

I definitely concur, that's GOOD idea! Also, I noticed, you were talking about pluge pattern... Did you go through Brightness and Contrast set-up patterns before looking at pluge? As for Brightness, you most likely will NOT see BTB bar, but it doesn't mean the pattern is useless, in fact, DVE narration instructs you how to handle adjustment in case like this. Do also Contrast adj.; There is possibility, since those adjustments (Br. and Contrast) DO affect each other, your problem MAY be consequence of incorrectly set Contrast level too...

EDIT: Just wanted to add: In my experience, the necessary adjustment we were talking about SHOULD be within range of typical adjustments available to consumer, if it isn't I would say it's indicative of other problems wit given configuration.

Kris