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Epson 810 Thread -- all Epson 810 discussion here . . . - Page 3

post #61 of 1647
$3000 USD for a D5 LCD projector is *insane*.
post #62 of 1647
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

$3000 USD for a D5 LCD projector is *insane*.

That's msrp -- I bet it can be had for less.

I for one will also pay for quality -- if it truly is there over other LCD projectors.

If the optics are noticeably better, SDE is not as bad as the Z5 and it comes calibrated out of the box, and is quiet, is bright enough, and has a better warranty, that may make it worth $1000 more to me than the competitors.

Some people pay $45,000 for a BMW, some pay $30,000 for a Toyota. They both do the same thing essentially. But some feel you get more quality out of the BMW.
post #63 of 1647
" But some feel you get more quality out of the BMW."
.....................
and, I heard more girls .
post #64 of 1647
Quote:
Some people pay $45,000 for a BMW, some pay $30,000 for a Toyota. They both do the same thing essentially. But some feel you get more quality out of the BMW.

I agree, but $3000 is a price that can buy you a D6 1080p LCD projector already today, overseas. How much longer will it take before this price will also apply to the US market ?.

The 810 at $3000 is a very unwise invesment imo. If street is going to be ~$2000, it's a different story.
post #65 of 1647
Since when is a new front projector an "investment" ?
post #66 of 1647
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

I agree, but $3000 is a price that can buy you a D6 1080p LCD projector already today, overseas. How much longer will it take before this price will also apply to the US market ?.

The 810 at $3000 is a very unwise invesment imo. If street is going to be ~$2000, it's a different story.


1080p projectors won't interest me until they are in a 2nd or 3rd generation and they have brighter lumens. And when the HD DVD/blueray DVD thing is sorted out and prices are lowered.

With standard definition DVDs and high definition TV, 1080p won't buy you that much visible a difference. It will with HD DVD/blueray. But its too early for those yet, and too early for 1080p (since its still 1st generation).

In my opinion, I think a real good 720p projector for the next 3 years is the way to go. By then 1080p projectors will be better, brighter and maturing. And hopefully the HD/blueray thing will be sorted out and less expensive.
post #67 of 1647
Quote:
Originally Posted by caesar1 View Post

That's msrp -- I bet it can be had for less.

I for one will also pay for quality -- if it truly is there over other LCD projectors.

If the optics are noticeably better, SDE is not as bad as the Z5 and it comes calibrated out of the box, and is quiet, is bright enough, and has a better warranty, that may make it worth $1000 more to me than the competitors.

Some people pay $45,000 for a BMW, some pay $30,000 for a Toyota. They both do the same thing essentially. But some feel you get more quality out of the BMW.

From what I've heard, Epson controls their MAP pretty tightly. So I don't think you'll see it for any less. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'm torn about the price. I have no doubt that it's probably a better machine, the question is how much. If you bought the AX100 and pocketed the $1200 difference and put it towards an upgrade to a brighter 1080p next year, that might make more sense.
post #68 of 1647
Quote:
1080p projectors won't interest me until they are in a 2nd or 3rd generation and they have brighter lumens. And when the HD DVD/blueray DVD thing is sorted out and prices are lowered.

With standard definition DVDs and high definition TV, 1080p won't buy you that much visible a difference. It will with HD DVD/blueray. But its too early for those yet, and too early for 1080p (since its still 1st generation).

In my opinion, I think a real good 720p projector for the next 3 years is the way to go. By then 1080p projectors will be better, brighter and maturing. And hopefully the HD/blueray thing will be sorted out and less expensive.

1080p projectors sold today, are better than 720p projectors in any way you can think about (SDE, sharpness, blacks, contrast, etc.), except for lumens.

And yes, I think of buying a projector as an investment. That's because I'm paying a lot of money, and I know that in 2 years I will probably be upgrading again. I want to get a good offer on my pj when I sell it. The 810 will prove to be a horrible investment, if it streets for $3000.
post #69 of 1647
You keep using the word "investment", look it up.

IF this projector can hold tight on price (a popular seller) and it is worthy compared to competition it will bring a slight premium used price in 1 year, 2 years you sunk.

All this conversation about dollars shouldn't be the deciding factor. Isn't it all about image quality ?
Some of you guys that can handle it should check out the new JVC in the other forum if you want the "best" today FP image. Not much dollars more either for a projector that could smoke everything in both forums for way under $10K.
post #70 of 1647
Quote:
All this conversation about dollars shouldn't be the deciding factor. Isn't it all about image quality ?

Hmm... nope. In this forum, it's about image quality for the money. For the money, the panasonic AE1000 cost today $3999, while the 810 cost $3000. The Panasonic will have better everything, except for better lumens. In 2 years when you'll upgrade, it will not lose more than the 810, making the 810 a bad *investment*.
post #71 of 1647
Let me weigh in on this issue.

I have looked at the new crop of 1080p Mits, Panny, JVC, Sony and find that most if not all are north of 3000. 3000 is pretty much my max amount. But I am willing to pay a premium for the Epson due to the customer service and tighter (IMO) quality control. I plan on keeping my next PJ for three+ years. So it is an investment but one that each individual must look at to see if it "fits" in their respective plans. I don't purchase anything planning on its obsolescence, but I do spend my money to try to get the best return on my purchase for my given situation not necessarily based on projected resale value.

In my particular situation lumens is VERY important to me and (for all I know important to others as well) this is the very reason I am steering clear of the "new" crop of 1080 PJ because of their lumens or lack there of. In two years maybe Panny, Mits, JVC will be offering 2000 lumens in their 1080 pj and then I may be interested. I can only hope that Epson will offer a brighter 1080 pj than the competition, but alas probably at a much higher price point.

I only look at my HT gear as a personal INVESTMENT and not a financial one that will pay dividends when it comes to "trading up" that way I don't kid myself when I sell "gently used" equipment and end up just wearing my skivies.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #72 of 1647
RTROSE,
Are you looking for the lumens primarily for ambient light viewing or more for a punchier picture?

I keep going back and forth between which attribute will have the biggest impact on my viewing pleasure--the lumens or the resolution. I have a BluRay player and it looks great, but not a huge jump from a great upscaled DVD, so that has me wondering how much better it might look paired with one of the new 1080p machines. But I love the punch of a great plasma, and if the lumens of the 810 or AX100 could get closer to that kind of picture, then that's very attractive.

Has anyone actually compared one of these 720p's side by side with one of the 1080p's with an HD-DVD or BD?
post #73 of 1647
RTROSE,
This is off topic, but I hope that most of the people are like you, and will stay away of the AE1000 because of its relative low lumens. This will lower the AE1000's price closer to the AX100's price, because they won't be competing on the same crowd.
post #74 of 1647
jacksonian,

I am looking for extra lumens because I plan on using my pj for a variety of viewing and I want to have the option of watching a game or regular TV with some lights on. I do like to watch movies with minimal lighting, but regular TV I enjoy with some ambient lighting on. I just don't think that the newer crop of 1080p pj have the "horsepower" yet. I too love the "plasma look" and think that having the option for more lumens would help in this regard as well.

I would think for me sitting back 1.5x screen width or more I would get more use out of a brighter picture vs. the extra resolution, however I have not seen the added detail of 1080p in FP vs. 720p. I have seen 720p vs. 1080p in rear projection and up close 1080p was by far much better but as I increased my viewing distance the difference became less obvious and side by side was with HD Discovery. Have not seen a side by side with HD-DVD or BD. Would be interesting to see though.

The only thing that keeps nagging me is that little voice in my head saying if you don't go 1080p you are not getting the "full meal deal". I still think that I would be very happy with a high quality 720p picture though, just need to silence that little voice.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #75 of 1647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

RTROSE,
This is off topic, but I hope that most of the people are like you, and will stay away of the AE1000 because of its relative low lumens. This will lower the AE1000's price closer to the AX100's price, because they won't be competing on the same crowd.

I too think that the two projectors are intended for two different groups. You may be right about the price and I think that Panasonic typically is pretty aggressive on its price cuts historically. It would be a different story though if they gave the extra lumens to the AE1000 then they just may be doing the proverbial cutting their nose off despite their face maneuver.

As I said before, I just don't like not having the option to "rev it up" lumen wise if the need arises.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #76 of 1647
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

jacksonian,

I am looking for extra lumens because I plan on using my pj for a variety of viewing and I want to have the option of watching a game or regular TV with some lights on. I do like to watch movies with minimal lighting, but regular TV I enjoy with some ambient lighting on. I just don't think that the newer crop of 1080p pj have the "horsepower" yet. I too love the "plasma look" and think that having the option for more lumens would help in this regard as well.

I would think for me sitting back 1.5x screen width or more I would get more use out of a brighter picture vs. the extra resolution, however I have not seen the added detail of 1080p in FP vs. 720p. I have seen 720p vs. 1080p in rear projection and up close 1080p was by far much better but as I increased my viewing distance the difference became less obvious and side by side was with HD Discovery. Have not seen a side by side with HD-DVD or BD. Would be interesting to see though.

The only thing that keeps nagging me is that little voice in my head saying if you don't go 1080p you are not getting the "full meal deal". I still think that I would be very happy with a high quality 720p picture though, just need to silence that little voice.

Regards,

RTROSE

It's tough, I'm sitting here watching the Notre Dame/USC game on a 60" plasma and it looks so bright, punchy, with great contrast. I need to roll my screen down halfway in front of it and compare the picture with my projector.

If the AX100 or 810 can give me that kind of image with all those lumens, I think that might be worth more than the extra resolution.

I sit right about 1.5 screen widths away also. You know, if there was a bright 1080p pj, it would be so easy!

I wonder if Epson's TW1000 will be bright?
post #77 of 1647
epson fp have always costed more...unless you work for a epson dealer :P

you get what you pay for....realistically, they should price it around 2400, but epson customer service is top notch, we havn't gotten our 810 yet, but i believe it comes with a extra bulb too, can anyone confirm/deny this?
post #78 of 1647
I found the specs for the upcoming TW1000. It's rated at 1200 lumens, so about 25% less than the 810. But with Epson's conservative specs, it should still be much brighter than any of the current crop of 1080ps. But with the 810 at $3k, I'm guessing they'll price this at >$5k?
post #79 of 1647
Yeah, I found the TW1000 thread here. It does look as though the Epson is going to be the brightest of the new 1080p pj's. It's still perplexing why they would not offer the same options for brightness as they offer on the 810.

I would guess that you are pretty much on the money with the 5g estimate. Someone on the thread did a yen conversion and it was roughly 3g's. I would think that with Epson's pricing history that 3 grand would be pretty cheap for a 1080p pj. The only time I am aware of their US prices coming down was when they went from the 550 to the 400 and that was about a drop of a grand and then the 800 was almost a 2 grand drop I think.

I can still hope that the 3 g estimate is true and that would IMO drop the prices of the "lesser" pj even further down. A guy can hope can't he?

Regards,

RTROSE
post #80 of 1647
As I mentioned in the AX100 thread, if you have no real interest in this projector... don't post here!

Thanks,

Kyser
post #81 of 1647
I just found that thread too. I'm just thinking that since Japanese folks here are saying the 810/700 is the same price as the Panasonic AX100, that the prices are not converting equally like some people are thinking. There's no way the TW1000 is coming in at $3k US, just no way. Epson has always priced themselves about 20-25% higher than all the other LCD pj makers.
post #82 of 1647
Sorry, Kyser. We ARE interested in this pj (at least I am). Just waiting for someone to post some more info about it. Joe_Black said he was hoping to see it side by side with the AX100 tonight so I was hoping to hear what he thought.
post #83 of 1647
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

Superfly,
You're right, you are lucky to have seen them all in the same spot. How far were you from the screens, how big were they, and did you notice any SDE on the Epson? I don't know how prices are in Hong Kong, but in the US, we're talking $2,999 for the Epson vs. $1,800 for the Panasonic. With those prices, would you still spend extra for the Epson (knowing they wouldn't be side by side for comparison in your theater)? Thanks for any input.


Ok
So I had the day off to do some wondering around. I went back to the place where I had demo'd all 3 PJ's. The guy had just sold his demo Epson and was wrapping it up. I think the guy buying it was american, judging by accent. Thwarted. I hit the streets and wondered around a few places until I finally found yet another place that had all 3. I only compared the ax100 to the TW700...
The screen was 80" widescreen by a company called "OS".
The source was a high end Marantz using HDMI
The room had perfect light control but I viewed in both complete darkness and with slight ambient light to see if there was much difference. There wasn't as far as pixel vis is concerned.

I First watched the Epson. I had the on screen display up and focused it myself to perfection. I backed away from the screen until I could not see any pixelation. This occured at about 96" viewing distance. At this distance, I had difficulty finding SDE in even white screen and the OSD menu, but it is right at the threshold of being there. The width of an 80" diagonal is 70" so 96/70 = 1.37 I want to also add that I have 20:10 vision which is well better than average 20:20......just because I can see a hint of pixels just inside this distance does not mean everyone will be able to. I tried also looking at the movie as though I was watching it, and not being a videophile weenie. The pixels were not noticable until MUCH closer.

Now, with the salesguy thoroughly unamused, I had him switch the PJ to the Panasonic. I focused it, but was not able to obtain the same sharp picture as the Epson. I immediately noticed that there was MUCH more noise on the picture with the panny than the TW700 / 810. I was surprised by this but the salesman also mentioned it. The color was also noticably more accurate and "deep" on the epson, the ax100 just seemed a bit washed out. This could be a result of the "ISF" calibration that the Epson is supposed to have out of the box, I can't say. All in all a solid vote for the Epson.

If anyone has any questions about the viewing post here or PM me,

Let the arguments begin, but that is exactly what I saw.

Supa
post #84 of 1647
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfly77 View Post

Ok
So I had the day off to do some wondering around. I went back to the place where I had demo'd all 3 PJ's. The guy had just sold his demo Epson and was wrapping it up. I think the guy buying it was american, judging by accent. Thwarted. I hit the streets and wondered around a few places until I finally found yet another place that had all 3. I only compared the ax100 to the TW700...
The screen was 80" widescreen by a company called "OS".
The source was a high end Marantz using HDMI
The room had perfect light control but I viewed in both complete darkness and with slight ambient light to see if there was much difference. There wasn't as far as pixel vis is concerned.

I First watched the Epson. I had the on screen display up and focused it myself to perfection. I backed away from the screen until I could not see any pixelation. This occured at about 96" viewing distance. At this distance, I had difficulty finding SDE in even white screen and the OSD menu, but it is right at the threshold of being there. The width of an 80" diagonal is 70" so 96/70 = 1.37 I want to also add that I have 20:10 vision which is well better than average 20:20......just because I can see a hint of pixels just inside this distance does not mean everyone will be able to. I tried also looking at the movie as though I was watching it, and not being a videophile weenie. The pixels were not noticable until MUCH closer.

Now, with the salesguy thoroughly unamused, I had him switch the PJ to the Panasonic. I focused it, but was not able to obtain the same sharp picture as the Epson. I immediately noticed that there was MUCH more noise on the picture with the panny than the TW700 / 810. I was surprised by this but the salesman also mentioned it. The color was also noticably more accurate and "deep" on the epson, the ax100 just seemed a bit washed out. This could be a result of the "ISF" calibration that the Epson is supposed to have out of the box, I can't say. All in all a solid vote for the Epson.

If anyone has any questions about the viewing post here or PM me,

Let the arguments begin, but that is exactly what I saw.

Supa

Thanks. Looks like around 1.3 or beyond for little SDE. Sounds good.

So even 11 feet from my 103 inch wide (118 inch diagonal) screen might work.
post #85 of 1647
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

I have looked at the new crop of 1080p Mits, Panny, JVC, Sony and find that most if not all are north of 3000. 3000 is pretty much my max amount.

If you can wait about two months, Some of us that own the Pearl are considering a side-grade to the JVC, and if that happens, you'll see a few Pearls being offered for sale with fairly low bulb hours, under $3500.
If I end up selling mine, it will be priced at $3500 OBO. I think most will be sold for between $3000-$3500.

If you can wait at all, I think a Pearl will just about smoke whatever else you would be considering.
post #86 of 1647
Thanks for the follow up, Supa. The Epson definitely sounds nice.
post #87 of 1647
Quote:


I First watched the Epson. I had the on screen display up and focused it myself to perfection. I backed away from the screen until I could not see any pixelation. This occured at about 96" viewing distance. At this distance, I had difficulty finding SDE in even white screen and the OSD menu, but it is right at the threshold of being there. The width of an 80" diagonal is 70" so 96/70 = 1.37 I want to also add that I have 20:10 vision which is well better than average 20:20......just because I can see a hint of pixels just inside this distance does not mean everyone will be able to. I tried also looking at the movie as though I was watching it, and not being a videophile weenie. The pixels were not noticable until MUCH closer.

Interesting, no SDE above 1.37:1 screen widths ?...

I wish you could have seen the the Sanyo Z5 too in the comparisson. The Z5 is notorious for having bad SDE, until about 2:1 screen widths. I wonder if your conclusion after seeing the Z5 and the Epson side by side, was that indeed the Epson is much better in this regard.
post #88 of 1647
Quote:
Originally Posted by caesar1 View Post

1080p projectors won't interest me until they are in a 2nd or 3rd generation and they have brighter lumens. And when the HD DVD/blueray DVD thing is sorted out and prices are lowered.

With standard definition DVDs and high definition TV, 1080p won't buy you that much visible a difference. It will with HD DVD/blueray. But its too early for those yet, and too early for 1080p (since its still 1st generation).

In my opinion, I think a real good 720p projector for the next 3 years is the way to go. By then 1080p projectors will be better, brighter and maturing. And hopefully the HD/blueray thing will be sorted out and less expensive.

I agree caesar on waiting a littel longer for 1080p to get brighter.I just wish they would come out with a new 720p with the new C2fine panels at a decent price.Myself I am injoying the heck out of my HD-DVD player.Why wait on that.Hd-dvd looks great on a 720p.You can rent all the HD-DVD'S you want from netflix for $8 a month.The quality is excellent on most.
post #89 of 1647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

Interesting, no SDE above 1.37:1 screen widths ?...

I wish you could have seen the the Sanyo Z5 too in the comparisson. The Z5 is notorious for having bad SDE, until about 2:1 screen widths. I wonder if your conclusion after seeing the Z5 and the Epson side by side, was that indeed the Epson is much better in this regard.

The 1.37 is screen widths.
I had the option of seeing the Z5, but I declined as I had already seen it compared to the epson previously. The Z5 had worse screen door, and I didn't think the colour depth was up to speed either. I was actually surprised during this demo ( new location, different projectors ( same model diff units) at the margin between the Panasonic and the Epson. The epson was MUCH better this time instead of marginally better. Mayeb this speaks to QC or the calibration?

Cheers
S
post #90 of 1647
Superfly,

I for one am not surprised at your report. I would have been surprised if the Panny "bested" the Epson. I like a sharp picture and that is what has steered me away from the Panasonics. Yeah you end up paying more, but I think that you do get a better pj IMO with the Epson. Price is subjective to everyone and it is left to personal decisions if the "premium" price is worth it. For some it will and for others it wont.

Paulidan,

I'll keep that in mind....I too have drooled over the JVC, however I think that the Pearl and the JVC just don't have the lumens I need at the moment. This is one of the main reasons I am looking to the Epson 810.

It would have been nice to see the Z5 but I think that it would have more SDE than the Epson and the Z5 definitely doesn't have the horsepower the Epson or the Panny has.

Superfly did you compare brightness modes between the two? My guess would be that on brightness the two are pretty evenly matched with the Epson having better color than the Panny even in the brightest modes.

Regards,

RTROSE

P.S. Just for the record I do have interest in this PJ.
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