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DTS output is coming to the Xbox 360 HD DVD - Page 2  

post #31 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post

I know this already but the subject of this thread was DTS coming to the 360 and since the 360 can pass it to any receiver, it seems confusing to me. If they are talking about the advanced audio options, it would seem that any change would have to be a hardware change since the XBOX doesn't have HDMI or 6 channel
audio outputs. Am I making sense. I hope so.

The subject of this thread (though not clearly stated) is the 360s ability to re-encode the dolby digital plus or truehd streams to dts instead of dolby digital (as it is doing currently). Right now the 360's software is decoding/processing the advanced audio formats and re-encoding them to a dolby digital stream.

For DVDs and HD DVD movies that already have a DTS track, the 360 is merely passing the stream from the disc to the optical output, no additional audio processing needed.
post #32 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule View Post

The subject of this thread (though not clearly stated) is the 360s ability to re-encode the dolby digital plus or truehd streams to dts instead of dolby digital (as it is doing currently). Right now the 360's software is decoding/processing the advanced audio formats and re-encoding them to a dolby digital stream.

For DVDs and HD DVD movies that already have a DTS track, the 360 is merely passing the stream from the disc to the optical output, no additional audio processing needed.

Thanks for the clarification! By re-encoding DD+ and truehd to DTS what improvements will we see? Also is MS working on the regular DD 5.1 issues that have been brought. I have noticed the lack of dynamics on those tracks compared to the SD versions?
post #33 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

And alot of people aren't.

A lot of people aren't? Like who? I can't remember anyone in the KK thread besides you saying there was not a problem. I have not been really paying attention to other threads. Is there another thread where people are saying they do not notice the problem?

Have you directly compared the audio with the same movie from a standard DVD with DD to a HD DVD with only DD+ (running both at same time)? If so, which movie? And please do not say it does not matter how it compares to a DVD. If it sounds worse than a DVD this is a problem. I didn't invest in the add-on and HD DVDs to get worse sound than a DVD.

I can not imagine that a stand alone player like the HD-A1 playing a DD+ HD DVD going through optical (not HDMI) sounds worse than regular DVDs. Does it? Have you compared your A1 (connected with optical) to the xbox 360 at the same time playing the same DD+ only HD DVD?

I like the HD DVD drive very much. The PQ is great the drive performs very fast. I'm looking very forward the audio update. I appreciate the folks at Microsoft that are addressing this issue. Thanks!
post #34 of 1448
I would just like to confirm that if watching an hd-dvd with a DTS track, it will be possible to pass the dts signal to my receiver without converting it to DD, correct? That is what I got from reading this thread. Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion about the subject over at xbox.com
post #35 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrow_69 View Post

I would just like to confirm that if watching an hd-dvd with a DTS track, it will be possible to pass the dts signal to my receiver without converting it to DD, correct? That is what I got from reading this thread. Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion about the subject over at xbox.com


The Xbox does pass DTS. Watched Riddick and it watched it with DTS. The problem is that DD 5.1 is less dynamic than the SD version DD 5.1. In the first scene where the glowing white ball comes out of the statue and explodes you get rocked with the SD version. The Xbox its really nothing. I had both the sd and HD version of Riddick playing 5 minutes apart and would go back and forth to compare PQ and sound. Same receiver and speakers. I hope MS fixes this soon.
I am happy with the quality of DD 5.1 but not happy with the XBOX passing of DD.
post #36 of 1448
He did say that it would output the DTS stream like the A1, so I assume that means convesion of DD+ and True HD to 1.5Mbps DTS digital out streams, and also the ability to pass through DTS standard streams.

Hopefully Amir will confirm or deny this.
post #37 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrow_69 View Post

I would just like to confirm that if watching an hd-dvd with a DTS track, it will be possible to pass the dts signal to my receiver without converting it to DD, correct? That is what I got from reading this thread. Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion about the subject over at xbox.com

I'm under the impression that for HD DVD on the 360, everything gets encoded to DD 5.1 via optical because the player needs to mix all the navigation/menu sounds with the movie's sound, in addition to any possible other video streams that can be brought up (such as picture-in picture) during playback.
post #38 of 1448
yes, currently I think ALL the audio (even DTS) is getting converted to DD out on the 360...
post #39 of 1448
For the person who said "TOSHIBA got rid of DD over digital out by replacing it with DTS" you are WRONG.

If you only have a DD receiver (that cannot decode DTS) than you will get the DD core from the DD+ track on disc. If, however, your receiver CAN decode DTS, you will get the DD core at a higher bitrate, closer to DD+ and thus your receiver perseives it as DTS. It perceives it as DTS b/c DD was constrained to a max bitrate on DVD (640 kb?), but not so on HD-DVD.

That is simplifying it a bit, but sort of what goes on. But rest assured that Toshiba did NOT make it only DTS that can be sent over the Digital out. If you receiver can truly only decode DD and not DTS (which I don't think is possible in this day and age, but I'll humor you) you will still get the legacy core DD.
post #40 of 1448
Great news!! I'm ordering my HD DVD drive now! Thx Amir!
post #41 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post

Thanks for the clarification! By re-encoding DD+ and truehd to DTS what improvements will we see? Also is MS working on the regular DD 5.1 issues that have been brought. I have noticed the lack of dynamics on those tracks compared to the SD versions?

Dolby Digital is output at a bitrate of 640kbps from the 360. With DTS, it can be output at 1.5mbps, likely meaning better sound quality.
post #42 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolintheRain View Post

For the person who said "TOSHIBA got rid of DD over digital out by replacing it with DTS" you are WRONG.

If you only have a DD receiver (that cannot decode DTS) than you will get the DD core from the DD+ track on disc. If, however, your receiver CAN decode DTS, you will get the DD core at a higher bitrate, closer to DD+ and thus your receiver perseives it as DTS. It perceives it as DTS b/c DD was constrained to a max bitrate on DVD (640 kb?), but not so on HD-DVD.

That is simplifying it a bit, but sort of what goes on. But rest assured that Toshiba did NOT make it only DTS that can be sent over the Digital out. If you receiver can truly only decode DD and not DTS (which I don't think is possible in this day and age, but I'll humor you) you will still get the legacy core DD.

If you were referring to me....

For HD DVD titles with advanced content, the toshiba hd dvd players will re-encode the dolby + and truehd tracks to DTS to be sent over digital coax/optical. I have not seen an option anywhere to have it output DD, but please feel free to point out this option to me in the player if I'm wrong.

I don't believe I ever said the Toshiba did not output DD at all, but it will only output the re-encode of the advance formats to DTS and not DD. It will output DD from DVD and HD DVDs with regular DD (and not DD+) just fine.
post #43 of 1448
Excellent!
post #44 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule View Post

If you were referring to me....

For HD DVD titles with advanced content, the toshiba hd dvd players will re-encode the dolby + and truehd tracks to DTS to be sent over digital coax/optical. I have not seen an option anywhere to have it output DD, but please feel free to point out this option to me in the player if I'm wrong.

I don't believe I ever said the Toshiba did not output DD at all, but it will only output the re-encode of the advance formats to DTS and not DD. It will output DD from DVD and HD DVDs with regular DD (and not DD+) just fine.

All the HD DVDs have DD+, it is required, none have DD. And yes the Toshiba re-encodes that to DTS since it only has a DTS encoder. Ideally it would have had both a DTS and DD encoder so people could have a choice. It has been debated since the last century whether DTS is better than DD. At least the 360 will soon give people the option of DD or DTS.
post #45 of 1448
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

All the HD DVDs have DD+, it is required, none have DD.

Many HD DVDs have DD tracks.
post #46 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

Many HD DVDs have DD tracks.

Please name them. I have over 90 HD DVDs and none of them have a DD track. They all have a DD+ track. Even the HDNet discs.
post #47 of 1448
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Please name them. I have over 90 HD DVDs and none of them have a DD track. They all have a DD+ track. Even the HDNet discs.

I believe you are correct.

I was reading some reviews which said that the alternate audio tracks were DD5.1, but I think they were mistaken. I checked some online individually, and they are DD+5.1.

I'll have to check the extras on the discs too but I suspect those are DD+2.0.
post #48 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

All the HD DVDs have DD+, it is required, none have DD. And yes the Toshiba re-encodes that to DTS since it only has a DTS encoder. Ideally it would have had both a DTS and DD encoder so people could have a choice. It has been debated since the last century whether DTS is better than DD. At least the 360 will soon give people the option of DD or DTS.

My understanding is that the A1 has a built in Doby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, and DTS-HD encoder. Via a firmware update they add TrueHD support. How else would the A1 be backwards compatible with regular DVDs? Are you saying that the A1 converts the DD on regular DVDs to DTS?

I believe the reason the A1 converts the DD+ to DTS over optical is to get the extra bandwidth (1.5 Mbps). With DD they are limited to 448/640 kbps.
post #49 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxMole View Post

Ugh, I don't like this at all. I am not a big fan of DTS as the dialogue is always low, so I have to turn it up. But when there is some action, the audio is too loud. I wouldn't mind this, but I live above my landlord so I can't have it too loud.

Boo. I just won't update it or something.

Converting Dolby Digital Plus to DTS is not the same as having a natively mixed DTS track. It will sound different than a regular DTS track.
post #50 of 1448
You can author your own HD DVD onto a DVDr with a Dolby Digital track. These movie only HD DVDs can have DD tracks and no re-encoding to DTS is done when they are played on the Toshiba players.
post #51 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipcody View Post

My understanding is that the A1 has a built in Doby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, and DTS-HD encoder. Via a firmware update they add TrueHD support. How else would the A1 be backwards compatible with regular DVDs? Are you saying that the A1 converts the DD on regular DVDs to DTS?

I believe the reason the A1 converts the DD+ to DTS over optical is to get the extra bandwidth (1.5 Mbps). With DD they are limited to 448/640 kbps.

I wrote HD DVD not SD DVD. All the HD DVDs have DD+ for the soundtrack, not DD. I don't know about the commentary tracks, but I have over 90 HD DVDs and they all only have DD+ for the main audio track. None of them have DD.
post #52 of 1448
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I wrote HD DVD not SD DVD. All the HD DVDs have DD+ for the soundtrack, not DD. I don't know about the commentary tracks, but I have over 90 HD DVDs and they all only have DD+ for the main audio track. None of them have DD.

Actually, I wasn't talking about the main audio track. I was talking about secondary audio tracks and extras.

However, as I mentioned, I may have been wrong on that as well. I was going by reviews that claimed that the secondary audio tracks on some discs were plain DD, but the few discs I checked have DD+ for the secondary audio tracks as well.

It's hard to know for the extras, since the covers often don't actually say what they are. They just say "stereo". I don't know if that means DD, PCM, or DD+, but I now suspect it's the latter.
post #53 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipcody View Post

My understanding is that the A1 has a built in Doby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, and DTS-HD encoder. Via a firmware update they add TrueHD support.

It has decoders for those formats. The only encoder it has is for DTS.

Quote:
How else would the A1 be backwards compatible with regular DVDs? Are you saying that the A1 converts the DD on regular DVDs to DTS?

Everything on HD DVD is converted to DTS (assuming you're using that output) because HD DVD players decode all audio internally for mixing it with menu sounds and secondary tracks.

Quote:
I believe the reason the A1 converts the DD+ to DTS over optical is to get the extra bandwidth (1.5 Mbps). With DD they are limited to 448/640 kbps.

It has nothing to do with bandwidth, and everything to do with marketing. 1500 looks better than 640 on paper, DTS looks better than DD on paper, regardless of what reality is.
post #54 of 1448
Thanks stanger. I now understand. In a nutshell everything via optical for HD DVD on HD-A1 is DTS. I just read the Sound and Vision A1 review and this explains it as well. It looks like manufacturers have the option of downconverting with Dolby Digital or DTS when using optical. Thanks!
post #55 of 1448
When possible I choose DTS. To me it sounds cleaner and more dynamic.
post #56 of 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I wrote HD DVD not SD DVD. All the HD DVDs have DD+ for the soundtrack, not DD. I don't know about the commentary tracks, but I have over 90 HD DVDs and they all only have DD+ for the main audio track. None of them have DD.

I meant the encoding. After reading stanger's post I now understand what you were saying. Sorry!
post #57 of 1448
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSpeed6 View Post

When possible I choose DTS. To me it sounds cleaner and more dynamic.

On SD DVDs, often times I preferred the DD track. The DTS sounded overdone at times.

The difference here though is that the transcoded DD output of the Xbox 360 sometimes sounded a bit "underdone" on some DD+ tracks of some HD DVD movies, even after you adjusted for levels. Hopefully the added DTS transcode will fix that, at least with that DTS output. It'd be nice if they'd fix it for DD output as well, for those without DTS-capable receivers.

I don't think it's really the original DD+ track (at least not completely), because the same track output in DTS from the Toshiba HD-A1 often sounds better overall, when compared to the DD output from the Xbox 360.

Mind you, on most discs I though the 360's DD output was fine, although it's possible part of the reason is that I don't have my subwoofer hooked up right now, so I wouldn't notice as much deficiency in the lower frequencies.
post #58 of 1448
I think there may be a bug with the A1 when reporting the audio on a disc. The HD DVDs that I've authored with Dolby Digital tracks show up on the OSD as Dolby Digital+ and my receiver shows that it is receiving Dolby Digital via digital optical.
post #59 of 1448
If that's the case then maybe the HDNet HD DVDs I have are actually DD. It shows DD+ on the screen, but I am using the HDMI connection so the A1 is sending 6 channels of PCM audio to my receiver. I'll have to throw in one of my DVDs burned in the HD DVD format to see what those show up as.
post #60 of 1448
Thread Starter 
Hmmm... The disc covers on the HDNet site are too small:



However, it looks like this to me:



Not this:



I also see elsewhere mention that the tracks are Dolby Digital, with no mention of Plus.
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