Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 6

Funlvr, truthfully what I would do is try to have Mark set them up so that you can use them indepently in the same system. For ex. on monday you decide to use the BMF. So just fire up the system and turn that on and keep the Submersive off. But on Tues, you NEED to use the 'Mersive. So on that goes and the BMF will lay dormant. That way you have the choice of both "flavors" in your system. I would love to try and do that some day.

GREAT IDEA!! Mark are ya listening?

About 2 years ago, when the Danley DTS-20 Tower of Power was being designed, I started dreaming about that sub especially after Mark got me thinking about it.

The thread One sub to rule them all had some very interesting information from Mark. In that thread in post #32 you mentioned the following..

"The more conventional subwoofer is of my own design, with the inexcapable influence of having worked closely with Tom Danley for more than 3 years. For discussion purposes, let's call this product the BM-215. The gross dimensions will be 19" x 29" x 24" tall. As you have likely guessed, it will have a pair of 15" drivers on opposing 19" wide sides. Yes, the configuration will be similar to say a larger module from the Martin Logan Statement or the Krell MRS. The enclosure will be heavily braced with the 2.25" thick driver baffles. Yes, it will be heavy. "


Mark,
1 . Is the Submersive1 = the BM-215?

2. After all that was said about the DTS-20, I would like in your own words what you think of that subwoofer now? Does it really live up to all that was expected from it? Do you still support that product ?

3. How does the submersive1, stack up to the DTS-20?

It feels like I am almost lagging behind in a way that I go for a subwoofer that you once worked on and no longer by the time I want to own one. I first wanted a Contrabass and then you left Servodrive. I then wanted a DTS-20, and then you are no longer with Danley Sound. A year from now I may want 2 Submersive1s and I wonder where you will be then .

For readers here, just a little history..

Sub $5K subwoofers - Rank the best out there in your order of preference
Contrabass

I don't blame you Mark, people always go to greener pastures. I think I miss all the excellent knowledge that you enlighten people with especially on products that they are interested in. In a way, I am bummed that you are no longer with Danley Sound. I have ordered a DTS-20, so enlighten me now and tell us, is this product all that you thought it would be.
Thanks,
-Jai

Hi Jai, It has been a long time since that discussion. Good to see you still around and chasing bigger and deeper bass.


No, the sub referred to above got tabled for now for a variety of reasons. It would have been about $3,000 retail. The SubMersive is a more compact and cost effective design with some differences in strengths. It doesn't have quite the low frequency output that something larger and more expensive might have had, but the size better allows the use of multiples, and the performance return for additional money spent starts coming down quickly.


It's an amazing performer and example of a great design concept from Tom Danley. Tom and I are still friends, and I have learned a LOT from him in the time we've known eachother. I have only heard the DTS-20 on two occasions. The first being an early production unit at a trade show, and the second being a wild outdoor home theater application where 4 were used to amazing effect outdoors. Below 25Hz down to their useful limit, the DTS-20 is certainly one of the most powerful single box subwoofers currently available. Any of the tapped horn examples I have heard have been overall very clean and dynamic, with immensely better sound quality than any other pro-sound subwoofer I have heard. I have not played with the box in detail enough to comment any further than that.


As is rather obvious, they are entirely different animals. The much more compact, and less expensive SubMersive is a sealed box and is very much designed with common home theater spaces and useage in mind. As you've seen, it has been measured in multiple and different types of spaces and usually provides a beneficial addition of very low frequency content into the 8-12Hz range. The size and pricing manageable enough to make the use of multiples practical and justifiable. Adding more subwoofers with EQ handy can allow you more and more headroom to work with down low, while also enabling placement choices that can help deal with modal issues. While obviously the sealed design and small enclosure of the SubMersive doesn't allow the same maximum levels around 20Hz, the difference isn't that big across the range, where above 35Hz and past 100Hz, the SubMersive can be swept at 120-124dB @ 1m.

Again, they are very different products, and I would say there are plenty of applications where one will be an obvious choice over the other based on space available, budget, room size and performance expectations. I can say that the depth of extension and dynamic linearity of the SubMersive is something I have only experienced with sealed or IB systems thus far.


I had long wanted to have entire control of the final product delivered, which is why I decided my own venture was the right path. It has taken a while and I've taken my lumps, but am now able to pursue many things I have long felt worth pursuing. I have been quite inspired in the process of re-confirming how valuable and desireable VLF extension can be through my experience with Bruce Thigpen's TRW-17 as well as the results I continue to see with my SubMersives, as this is really an evolution from what we first achieved in thebland's system. I have a few ideas that need to be tested next year, but I can assure you I'm not going to just sit back on 1 or 2 sealed subwoofer designs. The SubMersive is just one of many holes I felt needed filling in the market.

Thanks for the kind words, and best regards.

Mark,
Once again, you have responded with such class proving to be a true gentleman.
Thank you so much for patiently answering word for word all my questions.
I am really happy that you still feel the same way about the DTS-20 and it gives me assurance.
Know that I will be lurking around and someday, I want to buy a product from you, your own stuff.
Keep up the good work. We here are fortunate to have you around.
Take care,
-Jai

Its now 11:45pm on a sunday night, Mark seaton arrived here early today and spent all day leaving approximately 10pm, the reason for his visit was to calibrate and integrate the submersive sub into my m&k setup, when I took delivery of the submersive some time ago I was using the velodyne sms-1 which Mark indicated to me was a good EQ however in order to extract the most performance from his sub I should invest in a pro EQ such as the QSC DSP-30, I have to say it was quite an exciting weekend I just received a new Marantz VP11-S1 1080P projector and the very next day Mark Seaton shows up to do a full audio calibration, it just doesnt get any better than this for us hometheater fanatics. While the velodyne sms-1 was still installed I thought I did a pretty decent job of dialing a new program after deleting the old program which was for my two m&k mx-5000 subs which I sold to get the Submersive, Mark installed the QSC eq and completely transformed that audio in the theater, carefully calibrating the sub and all the mains and surrounds, he is dedicated to extracting every last ounce of performance from a room and all the equipment in it, the result was beyond words, I have never heard such clarity from my mains and slam from any subwoofer to date and im no newbie to homethear and ive had other big name subs in the past but nothing compares to how that submersive hit me in the gut and chest area, simply amazing, we watched the dvd "open range" the gunfight towards the end of the movie was simply breathtaking, gunshots sounded like cannonballs going right through you, if my simple review sounds over the top thats because the level of performance was OVER THE TOP. Master and commander literally tore my room in half and twisted our insides and for the first time in my own I wondered if my room would suffer structural damage from this one subwoofer. Mark and Jen if youre listening my wife and our friends truly enjoyed your company and your genious continues to inspire many of us who seek something closer to perfection that we now have, for me its like we have a whole new theater. Mark you continue to be a class act and we all wish you all the best

WOW funlvr. That sounds like it was a great weekend. Your experience now has me very very excited on what to expect with my own installation. It will be here before you know it . I am glad that all of the experiences have been consistent. I am excited to say the least. It is pretty amazing that a proper calibration can have that kind of effect. Congrats and enjoy your new sub.

Mike, before I got my sub installed I too listened to others rave about Seatons sub and his setup techniques, although like you I was excited with anticipation, nothing could prepare me for the transformation that took place in my room, to give you an example., in the final stages of the calibration Mark conducted a listening test and calibration "by ear" sitting in my main seating position he was able to determine by playing test tones across the front that there was a slight reflection on the left and right wall, my room is treated however I guess I missed those two spots, I had an extra 2 foot x 4 foot high frequency absorber which he had me lean against the wall in the spot where he heard the reflection and instantly a smile came over his face and he verified the reflection on that side of the room that kept the mains from panning coherently was gone, now before he found this I thought up to that point was already a hundred percent better than what I had, after placing the trap against the wall he had me sit in the seat and played the tones again and "VOILA" ,butter smooth and coherent across the front, the the theater now has such snap and accuracy that gunshots and cannon shots if youre not ready for them will make you jump out of your seat, my wife indicated to me that her and our friends upstairs jumped with a bit of fright after hearing the first gunshots and cannonshots from the movie open range and then master and commander and she said the house was completely shaking but even more important than that was that she said that every gunshot sounded clean and clear and that was what startled them, a word to the wise, room treatmements make a big improvemt and im glad I invested in high frequency absorbers and bass traps, now what to do with that BMF that I won over at AV123forum ( Thanks Mark Schifter)

It must be tough having a SubMersive AND a BMF . Yea, I can imagine it would be hard to try and manage both of them. We should all feel your pain . But thanks for the posting on the calibration. I just used the C2's room calibration and that was it. As I said, my room is small and I don't have any treatments. I just never thought it was important for a room my size. I think Mark is wondering what is going to happen in my small room. I really can't wait now.

roomtreatments are a must for any room, youre room is what shapes your sound and you can help steer your sound by tuning and managing reflections with basstraps,diffusion etc, the BMF isnt built yet so maybe March or so, If cost is a problem for your room treatments there are plenty of diy sites that you can visit and see how you can build them, you can always pm me for more info or talk about Marks process in general.

Cost is not the issue. I just never thought about it. I do not know how to determine what I need. Maybe when Mark comes he can see what I need. Then I can go from there.

you can get a jump on that since if you have some treatments up when he gets there you will hear a more immediate response otherwise he will tune the room the best he can and recommend some treatments but you wont get the benefit of hearing it before he leaves, finding first reflections is not hard and bass traps traditionally go in each corner you would be doing yourself a huge favor if you look at some of the diy sites and sites that talk about how to find first reflections, the only tool I used was my wife and a mirror lol

Ethan Winer @ realtraps.com can be a very good resource. His website has lots of beginner acoustics info, and he has been more than willing to answer any questions that you have. Plus, I have never heard a bad thing about their products.

Here are a couple of links that cover room acoustics:

Early Reflections
Kudos to my man COF at the S&V forum, don't know what my system would sound like without him :-)
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ide...?topicID=28194
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ide...?topicID=38945

Bass Traps
http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html

I hope this helps.

Because I am lazy , can you PM me some more info and some sites that I can use to find out more info? Only so we can keep this thread on track.
Thanks
edit:
I see that some one did that as I was typing.

Mark S.

Would it be too much to ask that you put together a book on system setup. I'm sure you have trade secrets, but give it some thought.


KG

rockemsockem thanks for coming to the rescue with those useful links im sure they would be very helpful for MIKEDUKE, I have the basstraps from realtraps.com and they are fantastic

Thanks. I will check them out.

Hi KG,

I've posted most all of what I do here on AVS at various times and in peices. I intend to put together a more complete outline of the process and important details to examine over time and keep this on my own website. There is really only one or two details that I can do with my TEF25 that are not as easy to do with other measurement systems, and there are still ways to get good results in these specific areas. Most of the adjustments are available to anyone with the Gold-Line 5.1 Audio Toolkit DVD and SPL and frequency response measurement capability.

The disk has test tones that while intended for other uses originally, I use to do listening validation of what has been measured. The part that everyone forgets is that exact level measurements with band-limited noise test signals are only exact when the speakers deliver identical frequency responses to the listener. There are times when you have to slightly deviate from a number reading or at least hunt down the reason for a difference that doesn't make sense. In Wayne's system, this was one of the most obvious flags where you have identical L, R & C speakers at the same distance yet you have different level settings for L & R speakers. Through listening to the noise from each and some phantom image test signals you can make determinations of the best compromise.

Beyond that, the combined subwoofer and main speaker response above 50Hz is usually given too little attention, as well as how the sub and center channel (and then L/R) are interacting. These problems don't require advanced acoustics knowledge or training to improve or adjust.

I think that the group at the Microsoft/HDDVD promotions group get together at my place on Saturday had their butts kicked with the four Submersives( in a good way).

Hint..................get Tokyo Drift HDDVD for a new sub demo !






Art

More than a few people had a chance to experience what Art Sonneborn's system this weekend, and I have to say it even surprised me a bit as to the level of experience delivered. Intense while detailed is a pretty good summary. Maybe some others who were there can comment.

Edit: I see Art just posted about it as I was typing this.

Art, you have a 4:3 screen?

I think that's just the angle and probably a horizontally sqawshed pic by the forum or for posting. The screen is ~12' wide.
You can see more pics of Art's theater as is linked in his signature:
www.artsonneborn.com

Those Microsoft guys get around. Some of the us LA area AVSers met them out here last month.

Mark,
Thanx.I've done most of my setup with TRuRta. I was just curious about your methodology. You're a class act Mr. Seaton.


KG

WOW! Great place Art! And the Usherettes....MAMA MIA!!

Mark, your sub website up yet?

I give this meeting a 9 out of 10 stars.........the lack of scantly dressed women prevented me from giving this get together a 10 out of 10!

Art I think the submersive club is growing

Hi Art,
Love your theater. How big is that room? May I ask why 2 G90's? I assume that screen is acoustically transparent, what kind?
Mark,
When do you think those submersives will be available? I am sure you have not heard that before.

The room is 20 x28 x9'2"

Two G90s for enough light for 12 fL on that screen size keeping supreme black reproduction and 1080p resolution

The screen is a Stewart microperf

Mark is making Submersives like sausages coming off the line..

Since you had the Pb12/plus/2 and now replaced them with the submersives how would to desribe the difference for movies only?