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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 152

post #4531 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Part III Listening Impressions

Stay tuned...

waiting for these^^^

I recently upgraded to an HP amp, IMO it kind of refines an already fantastic subwoofer........that is about all I can say.
post #4532 of 9372
Originally Posted by Gary J
Thanks! That's the counterpoint?

Yeah, if those graphs are not conclusive enough evidence, then any more discussion is pointless.
Craig


Gary, I've used XTZ on my system with Craig's help, and there is NO doubt in my mind that it is definately a worthwhile tool when used correctly. ...And Craig sure knows how to use it correctly! It may not be as fancy as some professional gear, but it can show and tell you plenty of excellent information about any system. Well worth the money!
post #4533 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

Originally Posted by Gary J
Thanks! That's the counterpoint?

Yeah, if those graphs are not conclusive enough evidence, then any more discussion is pointless.
Craig


Gary, I've used XTZ on my system with Craig's help, and there is NO doubt in my mind that it is definately a worthwhile tool when used correctly. ...And Craig sure knows how to use it correctly! It may not be as fancy as some professional gear, but it can show and tell you plenty of excellent information about any system. Well worth the money!

I've also read Kal Rubenstein's statement that he prefers the XTZ for his audio measurements.
post #4534 of 9372
Well,

Since I last posted I was catching some serious cabin fever so I had to take off and go hang with my college roomate in venice beach last week so I just got back today and installed the HP upgrade amp and put the stack back together (again). New amp dropped right in and was very easy to re-install.

Spent a about 4 hours messing with Eq's and remembering how to work the panel on my Behringer FB2496.

Anyway the sub moved 7 feet from its old location and is now 3-4 feet behind my main listening position at like 5 o'clock. This obviously is not optimal but for me it is, as the WAF is really high. we got rid of a peice of furniture she wanted gone and I got a another subwoofer out of the deal.

I scribbled down all the settings mark had dialed in for the original non HP sub in the original position as reference. most of the eq settings were not very close anymore. After playing around in XTZ and BFD and Audessy here's what I ended up today with. These graphs are just Audessy with no filters on the BFD at this point. For those who don't know have 3 MultXt receivers and have used them in at least 8 different rooms between 3 houses. I have always felt positive about the increase in spaciousness and imaging with Audessy. Many times the it worked great. some times it does weird things...

like cutting the bass dramatically. (old issue with the 805, doesn't exist with the 876)

sometimes it works great like it seemed to today. This same receiver with older fimware in the old sub location before #2, generally was not as accurate.

Results from today look and sound great so far. Only had time to check out transformers two opening scene and it was submersive as usual. I will have a chance to do some quality listening during the week when everyone is off at work and school. to be continued. If you have any comments on the graphs, I'm all ears...

EDIT: Link to full size images: http://picasaweb.google.com/rufrothy/SubmersiveStack#


Frequency Response - Center Listening Position Only (for reference). Before and After Audessy. No BFD.



Freq Response - Average of 3 primary listening position - Before and After Audessy.


Decay Map - before Audessy - Average of 3 listening positions



Decay Map - After Audessy - Average of 3 listening positions
post #4535 of 9372
Since Sean posted his Energy/Time/Frequency graphs, I thought I would also post mine. For anyone unfamiliar with these graphs, they plot energy, (SPL), by frequency over time: the right axis is frequency; the bottom axis is time; and energy is plotted with color. The right axis shows the SPL by color graphic, with purple being full scale, red being -10 dB, yellow -20 dB, cyan -30 dB, etc., down to dark blue being -50 dB. The sounds starts out on the left at time "0" as high SPL, plotted in purple or red, and then decay over time down to blue/dark blue.

ETF Audyssey Off


In this first graph, with Audyssey off, you can see a resonance at 125 Hz, and another, larger resonance at 25 Hz, and another about 12 Hz. My room is pretty well bass trapped and these resonances are pretty low in intensity, and not very long, (the 125 Hz resonance is pretty low (-30 dB) by 125 ms.) The resonance at 25 Hz is too low in frequency for bass traps, so it is longer and more sustained in level.


EFT Audyssey XT32 On


In this graph, you can see that Audyssey has tamed the resonances pretty effectively. The 125 Hz resonance is GONE completely. The 25 Hz resonance is lowered in level and shortened in time.


The next pair of graphs are full range, 1/3 Octave RTA graphs. They show FR in 1/3 Octave bands from 16 Hz to 20 kHz. The first graph is Audyssey Off, the second is Audyssey On:

RTA Audyssey Off


RTA Audyssey XT32 On


Clearly, Audyssey is flattening the response across the entire frequency spectrum. It's not perfect, but it's definitely improved over no Audyssey. It's interesting that an inexpensive little acoustic measurement program like xtz can actually verify what Audyssey is doing.

Listening Impressions

(Caveat #1) This is a little imprecise because I have changed 2 components in my system; the Submersive HP amps and the Integra Pre/Pro with Audyssey XT32. It is somewhat difficult to separate the improvements attributable to each individual upgrade. I will try to keep them separate, but there will be some unavoidable crossover.) The bass in particular will be difficult to separate. There is a significant improvement in DEEP, DEEP bass which is exclusively due to the new HP amps. However, there is also a big improvement in mid and upper bass, which is likely due to the improvement in the filter resolution capability of Audyssey XT32 on the main channels. The mains are crossed at 80 Hz. They each have dual 8" woofers, so they are capable of good output easily to their crossover point. Audyssey XT32's ability to improve the mid and upper bass is seen in the RTA, which shows very flat response all the way up to about 500 Hz.

(Caveat #2): I have a tactile transducer in my system. I have had it for several years and I am very familiar with it's capabilities. I have it because my room is in the basement and is carpet over concrete. *NO* subwoofer system can shake concrete. Therefore, if I want tactile response, I need the transducer. In my listening impressions, whenever I refer to the tactile response of the system, I have made a conscious attempt to factor out the tactile response of the transducer. However, I did have it on during my listening because it is my "frame of reference". It is impossible to completely ignore it, but I have at least made an attempt to do so.

(Caveat #3): These listening impressions were done with Prog 2 invoked after Audyssey was performed. IOW, Audyssey provided a flat response, and then that flat response was augmented with Prog 2. However, DEQ was *not* used. In my measurements, both Prog 2 and DEQ provided similar measurements, (at least at -12.5 MVC). What they do at different MVC levels I didn't measure, but I definitely preferred the *sound* of Prog 2 on the amps to DEQ in the Pre/Pro.

I provide the above caveats because some folks may disagree with these settings, and I want "full disclosure" of my methods. Feel free to criticize away!!!


War of the Worlds. BluRay. MVC was set -3 from RL. Holy $hit! I watched the "lightening strikes", the "pod emerges" and the "bridge explosion". I have probably demo'd these scenes 20 or 25 times, with various systems over the years. I have *never* heard them like this. Everything about them was better, stronger, deeper, cleaner, and more articulate than ever before. The deepest bass was definitely more tactile and concussive. When the hole starts to open in the ground, and Tom Cruise says, "Did you feel that?"... well yes, I felt that! When the pod's feet come up out of the hole, and stomp on the ground, the whole room shook and vibrated. This was much stronger and more concussive than previous. The death rays have a very low frequency component that is penetrating, and it is more so with the new amps than ever before.

In addition, the entire range of sounds, from the shattering of windows and the tinkling of falling glass, to the crunching of metal and glass when the Jeep flies out of the hole and lands on the car, to the full range of sounds in the lightening strikes, everything sounded crisper, more articulate and more detailed. Finally, the immersiveness of the surrounds was significantly improved.

Overall, I have personally never heard a system reproduce this soundtrack better than this.


Flight of the Phoenix BluRay MVC was set -3 from RL. Holy $hit! I watched the "plane crash" scene. The vibration and pressurization during the free fall of the plane was more palpable and sensory than ever before. The passengers' hair was standing on end, and mine, (what little I have left), was too! I could literally feel my hair moving by the air movement. This was much more involving, enveloping and scary than when I have watched it before.

I have to say that the new sub amps reproduce more than just the generalized "rumble" of some other subwoofer systems. There is not just one big "rumble" tone, but every rumble tone is different, with a different frequency signature; a distinguishable sound and tonal structure. I have heard some massive ported bass systems with huge output capabilities, and none have the tonal structure that the Submersive HP's have, even on loud and deep LFE type sounds. It's possible that this is due to the improvements in Audyssey XT32, but I think a lot has to do with the improved amps in the Submersives.

There are a dozen more movies I could watch and report on, but I wouldn't expect my impressions to be much different than what I heard on these two bass spectaculars. Therefore, lets switch gears to music.

Morph The Cat, Donald Fagen DVD-A MVC was set at -10 to RL. WOW! The bass on this disc is absolutely incredible, It's one of the best bass recordings I've ever heard! It's an Elliot Scheiner recording,and he is my favorite recording engineer. With the new system, the bass and bass drum are completely separate and distinguishable. They're both articulate in their own "space", and, though they both play together, you can hear them as separate instruments. I will have to ascribe most of the improvement to Audyssey XT32. There is not much on this, (or any music disk), below about 30 Hz, so the new amps and Prog 2 don't factor in as much, (except for the headroom increases.) Still the articulation and detail across the board are significantly improved. The sounds of the saxophones, drums, cymbals, guitars, percussion, even DF's voice are much more clear, detailed and involving. Credit for this has to go to Audyssey XT32.

Best! 1991-2004 Seal DVD-A MVC was set at -6 from RL. This disc is probably limited to ~40 Hz response. However, from that point up, it has incredible punch, dynamics and impact. The 5.1 DVD-A has very impressive surround information, immersiveness and envelopment. Seal's voice just seems to pour out of the center channel, and all the other instruments surround and compliment it. This disc sounded better on my new system than it ever has.

Farewell I The Eagles, HD DVD MVC set to -8. This my all-time favorite concert DVD. I grew up with the Eagles. I know every note of every song on every album they ever did. I have also seen The Eagles 3 times in concert, in 3 different decades, in 3 different environments, and 3 different song sets. I have also listened to this disc on many different systems and I am intimately familiar with it. To say that the sound of this disc on my new system is a *revelation* is not an understatement. The improvement in envelopment, immersiveness and and detail is striking. Timothy B. Schmidt's bass guitar is extremely articulate, much more so than I've ever heard it before, and *way* better than I've heard it live. The sound of the percussion is also significantly better. Don Henley's drums are incredible and extremely well recorded. Joe Walsh's guitar is... well... Joe Walsh. The other guy they have taking Don Felder's place, Steuart Smith is awesome as well.

On one of my all-time favorite Eagles songs, Hotel California, the horns, percussion, drums, guitars and Glen Frey's vocals are absolutely incredible, with fantastic clarity, articulation and detail. At one point, Joe Walsh and Steuart Smith are playing together, and playing the exact same notes. Each guitar is easily distinguishable as it's own sound. In addition, the horn section is playing at the same time. Each horn is horn is heard as a separate and distinguishable instrument. At the same time, the bass and percussion lines are easily followed. Few systems, IME, are able to separate and articulate each instrument from the others playing simultaneously. Audyssey XT32 and the Submersive amp upgrades have allowed my system to get there.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with the upgrades I have done. I am planning to have an Audyssey Pro calibration done in the near future. I will report back with any improvements I see from that. In the meantime, I am definitely going to enjoy my new system!

Craig
LL
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post #4536 of 9372
Great review, Craig. I had similar feelings with WOTW with my new HP amp (for my 1 SubM), but your experience with XT32 does make me envious (I'm still with XT); will resist an upgrade for a while, but it does seem like it does a good job.
post #4537 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Great review, Craig. I had similar feelings with WOTW with my new HP amp (for my 1 SubM), but your experience with XT32 does make me envious (I'm still with XT); will resist an upgrade for a while, but it does seem like it does a good job.

XT32's biggest benefit, (IMO), is it's increased resolution and filter capability in the range dominated by the speakers... not the range dominated by the subs. If you are currently happy with your sub's capability, then there is little to be gained in the subwoofer range by going to XT32.

OTOH, there is a lot to be gained in the main channels by going to XT32.

Craig
post #4538 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

XT32's biggest benefit, (IMO), is it's increased resolution and filter capability in the range dominated by the speakers... not the range dominated by the subs. If you are currently happy with your sub's capability, then there is little to be gained in the subwoofer range by going to XT32.

OTOH, there is a lot to be gained in the main channels by going to XT32.

Craig

Thanks, Craig; yes, this is what I understand that XT32 will do. I like my speakers (Ascendacoutic Sierra's) very much, but do have the feeling that in my medium-small room (17x14x8.5) an effective mid-range eq would be helpful. The next time I do an AVR upgrade I look forward to XT32 (and whatever else is available in a yr or 2). But no upgrade to the SubM/HP will be necessary!
post #4539 of 9372
Awesome write up Craig!! (all 3 parts!).
post #4540 of 9372
Great update Craig. Can't wait to get my system done. And I am sorry about being such a pain in the ass about certain things. I am looking forward to working them out together .
post #4541 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Overall, I couldn't be happier with the upgrades I have done. I am planning to have an Audyssey Pro calibration done in the near future. I will report back with any improvements I see from that. In the meantime, I am definitely going to enjoy my new system!

G-r-e-a-t review! It would be nice to be able to allocate improvements to the various upgrades, but with so many variables I guess that's impossible. I'd like to think that the 80.2 over the 885 is responsible for the mid- and high-frequency improvements (more transparency), XT32 for the improvements in LF on the mains and sub amp upgrades for the added ooomph at the very bottom. But that is all guessing ....

I guess we will hear the difference between XT 32 and XT 32 & Pro as that will be the only change.

Again, great write-up! I am indeed interested in dropping by and hearing your system!

Jeff
post #4542 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
Thanks, Craig....

The next time I do an AVR upgrade I look forward to XT32 (and whatever else is available in a yr or 2).

But no upgrade to the SubM/HP will be necessary!
Same here millerwill - my HP is revealing nuances and sheer grunt that I've never experienced before.

Quoting Craig from earlier who said it better than I could: "every rumble tone is different, with a different frequency signature; a distinguishable sound and tonal structure. I have heard some massive ported bass systems with huge output capabilities, and none have the tonal structure that the Submersive HP's..."

YES! So cool...
post #4543 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by allredp View Post
Same here millerwill - my HP is revealing nuances and sheer grunt that I've never experienced before.

Quoting Craig from earlier who said it better than I could: "every rumble tone is different, with a different frequency signature; a distinguishable sound and tonal structure. I have heard some massive ported bass systems with huge output capabilities, and none have the tonal structure that the Submersive HP's..."

YES! So cool...
Extremely encouraging. I can't wait to receive my new amp on Saturday!!
post #4544 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by savjam View Post
Extremely encouraging. I can't wait to receive my new amp on Saturday!!
That's great news for you - not too long now!

Totally slick retro Mark has figured out for us.
post #4545 of 9372
Craig John: So do I understand you are running your 3 SubMersive HP's with the out (new)setting. Is that correct? I only ask because I read where someone else thought it was too "boomy" in that mode (but I don't know if they had SubEQ or X32 on their system)
post #4546 of 9372
But it has great "tonal structure".
post #4547 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Craig John: So do I understand you are running your 3 SubMersive HP's with the out (new)setting. Is that correct? I only ask because I read where someone else thought it was too "boomy" in that mode (but I don't know if they had SubEQ or X32 on their system)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

But it has great "tonal structure".

FWIW, not Craig here, but, I am running in #2 "out" position and it is not boomy in my 15 x 27 x 8 semi-sealed room (well-treated). Need to experiment with music, but HT is fantastic so far.

I've played the Spiderman 1 scene where the guy turns into sand dozens of times, but never had the visceralality nor fascinating variety of sounds and feelings I get now. The "tonal structure" is truly impressive now.

Can't imagine the headroom Craig must be enjoying with 3 of these bad-boys! My single HP is crushing my room...
post #4548 of 9372
So what is the cost to swap amps on an existing SubMersive (or four)?
post #4549 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

So what is the cost to swap amps on an existing SubMersive (or four)?

If things haven't changed with Mark since a few weeks ago - you're looking at $385 per unit, which includes shipping in US. To go from 1kw to 2.4kw (feels like gigawatts) that's pretty incredible! The swap out is totally slick as well.

I just don't see anyone touching Mark's level of build-quality, engineering, and flat out performance for the $$ anywhere. period.
post #4550 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Craig John: So do I understand you are running your 3 SubMersive HP's with the out (new)setting. Is that correct? I only ask because I read where someone else thought it was too "boomy" in that mode (but I don't know if they had SubEQ or X32 on their system)

Yes, I am running them in Prog 2, ("out" setting"). I ran Audyssey XT 32 with them in Prog 1 and then reset them to Prog 2 afterward. There is no "boom" with this. Just "more" deep bass.

I have rerun the nearfield measurement so you can see exactly what Prog 2 is doing.



The net effect of this is to add a "house curve" that shelves up the response to account for low frequency hearing loss that humans have. It is very similar to what Dynamic EQ does. In fact, my in-room measurements of DEQ vs Prog 2 were almost indistinguishable, (at least at -12.5 MVC that I used for the measurements.)

Prog 2, (IMO) is *the* main reason the upgrade to the HP amps. Of course, if you're like Gary J, and you don't have a "preference" for this, then, as Mark instructed him, you should not upgrade.

Craig
LL
post #4551 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Prog 2, (IMO) is *the* main reason the upgrade to the HP amps. Of course, if you're like Gary J, and you don't have a "preference" for this, then, as Mark instructed him, you should not upgrade.
Actually if you want or need more headroom that alone is reason to upgrade and use Prog 1. Plus you get to play with new graphs of dubious use all over again.
post #4552 of 9372
Gary,

The link in your sig says you have a Def Tech SuperCube 1 subwoofer. Is that link old and not updated? Do you have Submersive(s)? How many?

Craig
post #4553 of 9372
Fixed. One is all that is needed.
post #4554 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Actually if you want or need more headroom that alone is reason to upgrade and use Prog 1. Plus you get to play with new graphs of dubious use all over again.

Why do you have to be such a jerk?

Sean
post #4555 of 9372
With 4 SubMersives in a 3800cf room, I do not lack for headroom (nor, do I suspect, did Craig John). But I do like the idea of the built-in house curve. I was wondering how Audyssey wouldn't undo what the new setting does but you answered that by running Audyssey and then putting the button in the new position. Clever!!

I take it you don't currently use Audyssey Pro. What kind of "curve" does regular Audyssey assign to the speakers, or is it ruler flat?

Does this EVER end ??? I mean how would one have ever imagined that 4 SubMersives wasn't the end-all be-all of sub-woofer land. I need to quit visiting these Forums and save myself a lot of money.
post #4556 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post


Does this EVER end ??? I mean how would one have ever imagined that 4 SubMersives wasn't the end-all be-all of sub-woofer land. I need to quit visiting these Forums and save myself a lot of money.

No it does not ever end, welcome to the home theater hobby!

Ive been upgrading steadily since 1997 or so.

Edit: I see you have been at this awhile, every once in awhile you gotta pull out , take a 6 month or so break. I've taken a year or so break a few times since I got into this hobby. You kinda got to do this.
post #4557 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Edit: I see you have been at this awhile, every once in awhile you gotta pull out , take a 6 month or so break. I've taken a year or so break a few times since I got into this hobby. You kinda got to do this.

I had a two channel media room when the first Laser Disks appeared in the early 80's. Built my first dedicated HT in about 1992 and it was a steady pace of very expensive upgrades until 2005. Major changes in my life took place and then I started again in 2008 (but at a much much much lower level) but it is exactly the same disease. It's always: "once I get this [fill in the blank], my room will be complete" and I have been buying into that lie since the get go.

Aaaaargh !!!
post #4558 of 9372
Early eighties? lol, you have been at this awhile.

I guess I should be grateful that I have been pretty satisfied with my last gear upgrades for quite a long time now. I have not once felt that my single SubMersive might not be adequate , it does its job perfectly and I even upgraded to the 2400 watt amp while I know for a fact the 1000 watter was enough.

My only current problem is my blu-ray buying...........I am trying to tame it but I am in about $6500 in and I buy them WAY faster than I can watch them.
post #4559 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Early eighties? lol, you have been at this awhile.

I guess I should be grateful that I have been pretty satisfied with my last gear upgrades for quite a long time now. I have not once felt that my single SubMersive might not be adequate , it does its job perfectly and I even upgraded to the 2400 watt amp while I know for a fact the 1000 watter was enough.

My only current problem is my blu-ray buying...........I am trying to tame it but I am in about $6500 in and I buy them WAY faster than I can watch them.

Watch the sunsets over the bay instead.
post #4560 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I had a two channel media room when the first Laser Disks appeared in the early 80's. Built my first dedicated HT in about 1992 and it was a steady pace of very expensive upgrades until 2005. Major changes in my life took place and then I started again in 2008 (but at a much much much lower level) but it is exactly the same disease. It's always: "once I get this [fill in the blank], my room will be complete" and I have been buying into that lie since the get go.

Aaaaargh !!!

That's what got me hooked also. Darn those Laserdiscs.
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