Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 158

That's certainly an understatement Mike. The in room response you've exhibited in that dual trace chart is terrific. And yes, for just one sub, that's nice and smooth. I've followed your progress here, and on Seaton's forum. Nice job.

Thanks. Mark has been instrumental in the Journey as well so I have to again thank him for all of his advice and help along the way.

Hi Mike,

The Submersive HP amp made a big difference in your system. In addition, Audyssey MultEQ XT32 made a big difference in the sound quality of the bass, and of the midrange/treble from the mains and surrounds. Everything sounded smoother and beter integrated.

Mike, post some of the listening impressions you sent me. Also, post some new pic's of your system. We reconfigured the whole front stage, including moving the TV/stand to the middle of the room, splitting the racks with one on each side of the TV, installing the Oppo BluRay player and the Integra 80.2, rewiring everything with HDMI interconnects, repositioning the main speakers and re-mounting the surrounds so they face the LP.

Some of the changes made subtle improvements, like moving the CC so the LP is on-axis. Some made huge differences, like Audyssey XT32 and the Submersive amp. All-in-all, I thought the whole thing turned out pretty darn good.

Enjoy!

Craig

Will do Craig. I will take some new pictures this weekend an put them up.
Here are some of the comments I sent:
Now, on to more important things . I watched Star Trek last night. WOW. The difference was just crazy. I was able to go to -10db on the Integra with no problem. It sounded way better than it ever did before. Pans were much more precise. I was able to get much better channel separation between the left center and right speakers. Plus the surrounds sound fantastic now.

When people were talking in the left or right speaker it was clearly heard. Even as there was main dialog coming from the center. The sound was incredibly clean. As for the sub, it was a completely new feeling, so to speak. It was incredibly tight. It seemed to react so damn fast. I mean it just starts and stops on a dime. The warp jumps were like quick snaps of bass. The “boom” during the space jump onto the platform was incredibly precise. It seems that there is no “extra” stuff at all. It sounded incredible but I do need to get used to it.
And Thanks again to you and Dennis spending the day helping me out. It was a lot of fun.

You just convinced me to try prog 2 on my HP amp, thanks MikeDuke!

No problem. Hopefully you will like what it does.

Thanks for posting the graphs Mike, very impressive all the way down to 15 Hz or so. Looks like the XT32 is doing some good work.
Congrats!

Did you keep the DSP30 in the chain when you ran Audyssey? Since you did not use Audyssey Pro, that is an incredibly nice bass response and I'm not sure what Pro would improve.

Now I'm excited to get my 80.2 installed. I'm still waiting on Mark to comment on the upgraded amps for my 4 SubMersives or consider swapping a couple of them out and getting a single bigger Seaton Sub but am leaning strongly to getting the HP amps.

Thanks . It does sound sweet. Even though the chart looks to drift lower I am guessing that it is still pretty good overall? I know I am biased but it does sound outstanding. If anybody could possibly still be on the fence about this sub, don't be. Just get it,with the HP amp and have a good room correction system. I have a hard time believing that anybody would be disappointed with how it sounded

I guess I am a slow typer. No we did not keep the DSP30 in the loop when we tested. Talking to Craig before we did this convinced me that the filters in the Integra were vastly superior to the ones in the DSP30. In both number and sensitivity so I just took it out. So you are maybe thinking of a pair of SubMersives and a pair of Terraform XL's? That would be mind blowing I think. I also think that upgrading the SubMersives to HP status and getting the 80.2 installed in your system would really put you on a new level. You can see what it did for me. With your Cat and Submersive setup I am %100 positive the changes would floor you.

You guys are killing me with all this talk about owning the Intregra 80.2 and your great looking graphs. So cut it out. I just can not afford it right now.

BTW I really need to come by your place again Chuck maybe after the HP upgrade.

The chart doesn't really "drift lower." If you look at the levels of the speakers from 80 Hz up, (80 hz being the crossover point), the response is fairly level up to about 250 Hz, and then there is a room induced dip. We can't see beyond that in this measurement, but I'm sure the level is pretty much the same above this, with a few other peaks and dips. Below 80 Hz, with Prog 1, you have a slightly rising response that makes for a very nice "house curve". Prog 2 raises that even a little more. Even though these are just single point measurements at the listening position, I think they are fairly representative of what you're hearing... and I think we both liked how it sounded:


Unfortunately, by the time we finished everything, we only had time to listen to a few tracks, (it was already an 11 hour day!) Nonetheless, what we listened to did sound terrific. That scene in Sherlock Holmes were the ship falls off the rails and slides into the harbor was really spectacular! I wish we had had more time to listen and take some more measurements. The full range measurements would have been interesting.

Also, note how good the "time response" looks in your room, (the little multi-colored graph in the upper right.) For such a small room, with lots of hard walls, windows and doors, the decay is quite good. The traps and acoustic panels you've installed really seem to be working quite well. Good job on that! When you provide Audyssey XT32 with a good starting point, as you've done, it can do a much better job of correcting the remaining problems. Well done, Mike!

Craig

Thanks Craig, I could not have done it without the both of you though. And I was never good at reading charts and graphs. I just know what I like when I hear it. At this point, me likely a lot. I try my best to do things the right way, even though it may take longer. I know I am hamstrung because of my room, it's size and makeup. That is why I am very pleased with the results. I know it was a very long day. That's why I really appreciate all your help that much more. We did not rush anything. Even when trying to isolate that hum(which was a problem with the Turn table NOT the amp). New pictures this weekend.
Edited for clarification on hum

Just to clarify... the hum was from the turntable, not the Submersive. The TT needed to be grounded properly, which I had not done initially. I wouldn't want anyone to think it was from the Submersive.

Craig

Correct. I should have been clearer. It was from my TT not the sub.

Happy Thanksgiving guys! Get those Christmas decorations out!

I was wondering if there were any audio tests out there that one could use with an SPL meter to test different subwoofer locations?
It would be nice to have some proof a different subwoofer location is better or worse.
thanks

Speaking to someone who heard one and thought it sounded like mud. Very boomy compared to other subs I've heard. I think boomy was an understatement. Just my view. If it isn't boomy then I wouldn't automatically qualify it as being precise or articulate either.

Sooo, still insisting a sub you heard over there is boomy and one you heard over here is not, eh?

Contrary to popular belief subwoofers can and do generate higher levels of self-noise than others due to a number of factors ranging from design, to cabinet induced vibrations or some other cause. Some subwoofers ring more than others. I have heard a few SVS models already and every one sounded like a one-note mess. I have also heard the JL Fathom and in EVERY case, it was a major, major improvement on every level. Bass quality was 10 times better.

The totally "free" solution is to use the RealTraps Test Tones.
http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
However, you get what you pay for. This is a cumbersome and time consuming system to use. It plays individual tones from 10 Hz to 300 Hz and each tone is played for 10 seconds. It takes about an hour to do each run. You need to write down all the SPL levels or enter them into a spreadsheet. Then use the graphing function of the spreadsheet to graph your results.

Rinse and repeat for other subwoofer locations and listening positions. It could easily take you all day to map out your room.

Next up is another "free" solution, at least for the software:
Room EQ Wizard: http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
The program is free, and you can use an SPL meter as the mic, but you'll need a duplexing soundcard, and then you'll need to spend a significant amount of time fiddling with it to ensure you have "correct" results. Still, if/when you get it set up properly, it yields some excellent results and lots of information.

A much simpler and easier solution is the system I use:
xtz Room Analyzer:
http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/mearur.../room-analyzer
It doesn't use an SPL meter; it has it's own calibrated mic. There is now a US Retailer of the system, and the price is currently about $250.
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/sho...-analyzer.html
xtz is an all-in-one-box solution that is orders of magnitude less time consuming to use than either of the above systems. All you need is a computer with a USB port. You can be up and running within minutes and everything is pre-calibrated so no fiddling with soundcards, mic preamps, or test tones. Each measurement takes about 5 seconds, (30 seconds if you do 3-position measurements). The graphs I posted recently were xtz graphs. Here is the AVS "Official" thread on it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=xtz

Another easy to use measurement system is the Velodyne SMS-1:
http://www.velodyne.com/vproducts/se...=1211&v_area=a
It is also an 8-band parametric equalizer, so it can be used to improve the frequency response in addition to just measuring it.

The only other "consumer" level system that I'm aware of is the one Mark linked to a few pages back:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...90&ctab=1#Tabs
It's a little more expensive than xtz, but it looks like it might be a little more extensive in the tests it can run. It's not available yet, but it should be soon.

Beyond "consumer" level systems, there are "pro" systems if you want to get really serious. Here are a couple of examples:
http://www.etfacoustic.com/RPlusDSite/index.html
(They have a "low-rez" version that is free and can be used with an SPL meter, but it shouldn't be used for accurate FR measurements.)
http://www.sencore.com/products/Audi...undPro_58.html
http://www.libinst.com/index.htm

If you have an iPhone 4, I believe there is an app coming out for acoustic analysis on it, but I don't know how good it will be, or how accurate the mic in an iPhone 4 is. Still, it should be easy and cheap.

Measuring your system can definitely improve your results. You can visually "see" the FR and find the best locations for your subwoofer and your listening position. You can also see the integration of your sub with your speakers and optimize your Bass Management settings.

Good luck with it!

Craig

I believe this is the Seaton Sound Submersive thread. If you want to talk about SVS or JL Audio, there are separate threads for that:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=889659
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736243

We're really not interested in those subs here.

Craig

Great summary, Craig. I started with a sinewaves and a BFD and second your evaluation of how time consuming this is! Then went to SMS-1, and now happily with an XTZ for measureing (and Anti-Mode + Audyssey for eqing).

I've owned/heard these subs. Whenever I hear off-the-wall statments like that, my first thought is wondering how long you've been a JL dealer. That is truly one of the most outragious statements I have read on this forum in a long time from clearly someone who is clueless and ill-informed.

+1

I'm looking forward to see what Kal Rubinson has to say about this, looks like he's going to have one to review....

I'm going to order one myself, shows its out of stock atm, but hopefully will be back soon.... REW is good, but I haven't had good luck with it myself on the hardware end, so I'll give this unit a shot... I'll trust ya Mark to suggest a decent, well rounded product.... and simple to boot is def in my best interest...

That's rich, assuming this poor guy is a dealer simply because his subjective viewpoints differed from your own. Just when I thought ones argument couldn't get any kookier, then it happens and I get surprised all over again. Just a question or two. You proceeded to call this guy clueless and ill-informed because his views contradicted your own, so please explain how those two accusations hold any merit. I'll wait. Subjectivity is in the ear of the beholder, how could one possibly qualify his statements as ill-informed ? Asinine thing to say.


Believe me, no one cares. Your experiences and viewpoints are still inherently subjective and are no more important than anyone elses. Perhaps you should consider that the next time you try to prejudge and belittle a guy because his views differed (more like conflicted) from your own. As much as one would like their own experiences to act as gospel, it unfortunately is subject to critique just like everything else. Such is life.

I am no expert and I wouldn't call the bass mud on SVS subs. I have owned a few in my lifetime. Once I switched to HSU subs I realized that the SVS subs were very muscular with bass, whereas the HSU gave me layered/articulate bass. I currently use an Empire and if the more powerful Submersive does the same thing to bass, then I can only imagine just how good it is. I have never heard the JL subs but I would not discount that they are more articulate than the SVS subs. I don't think that would be hard to accomplish at these price points. Yes the SVS subs flap your pants. Yes they pressurize a room. Yes they hit you in the chest. However, I HATED every single one of them for music.

Fair enough. In general, though, I think it would be a good policy if the Forum required people to say what connections they have to the AV industry. (I have none, just a Chem Prof at UC Berkeley and AV hobbyist.) I would still be interested in their comments no matter what their connection, but it would help keep things in perspective.

My issue has nothing to do with his preference of sub a over sub b. That said, when he says sub a is 10 times better than sub b, I will say again that he is clueless. Lest you forget, I do not own the SVS sub he is bashing.

.

I'm not affiliated with the JL, I just happen to really like their gear so I do take offense that you would think I am a dealer. For me, SVS simply sounded muddy in comparison to the JL. I'm not partial to JL, there are other brands that I feel sound way better, like the Paradigm Studio and Sig subs. For music, they sounded much better.

Who are you to say that I am clueless ? Perhaps you are clueless. I reached a conclusion just like everyone else does and you call me clueless ? Bah, whatever.