Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 161

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Originally Posted by craig john

Marks forum has the following posted:


http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3364736

I added the emphasis. I'm not sure why some Submersive owners are saying they didn't get one, but I suggest you contact Seaton Sound.

Craig

Originally Posted by Mark Seaton

We are waiting on a bulk of the DVD's to arrive. We will be shipping the AudioToolkit DVD out as soon as those arrive. I should have confirmation of when in the next few days. Obviously we didn't want to hold up SubMersive shipments just for the DVD.

Originally Posted by craig john

Craig,

I completely agree with you. Adding more high amperage circuits makes the most sense, and would likely be the best solution to the problem. However, Mike's room is on the 2nd floor of his parent's house. The electrical service comes in through the basement. To get more 15 or 20 amp circuits up to his room would require some fairly extensive re-wiring that would impact his parent's house, (i.e., running wiring through multiple floors with the concomitant cuts and patches in drywall, along with repainting.) Even if Mike could pay for it, I'm not sure his parents would support it.

Given the current, (PI) limitations, I think his best bet is to limit any "outside" current use and to maximise the current availability to his HT system.

Craig (John)

Originally Posted by HyperM3

I actually also found out that turning the volume knob on the sub did nothing, whether max or at 0 it played the same volume

Originally Posted by MIkeDuke

Thanks for that Sean. In my room the biggies are my Bryston amps(specs on previous page), which are NOT green, and the new submersive amp.
I think it's OK if I say what my plan is. First off, through discussions we may have a theory. What I am going to do is the following. Again, only WOTW regular DVD has done this. All other movies regular and BR are fine. So the plan is this. First, run the movie with my full system at -10db. This is the level that "tripped" the amp. So that is first and I will see what happens. Then I will run the system with one of my amps off and see what happens. Finally, I will disable Audyssey and run the movie and see what happens. If it turns out to be Audyssey, which I hope it is, I don't know what I could do. But I will cross that bridge when I get to it. In the mean time I am still enjoying movies and music very much.

Originally Posted by HyperM3

So I just got a new Marantz AV-7005 to replace my 3808 about a month ago. Since then, my Sub has been nearly unusable. It sounds terrible and muddy. I played with Audyssey multiple times, changed speakers to different settings, messed with the crossovers...nothing. I actually also found out that turning the volume knob on the sub did nothing, whether max or at 0 it played the same volume.

Next thing I will do is pull it away from the corner a bit, but its just way too overbearing for my system at this point and I cant seem to dial it down.

Originally Posted by Mark Seaton

Quick follow up to what we did figure out...

The shut down in fact had no relation to power. In fact it was a DC protection cut out which we believe to be related to some Audyssey mis-behavior with the EQ applied. The cut out does not occur with Audyssey turned off. When we found this problem and Craig had noted that they had to turn the SubMersive's level way down I suspected the process was getting thrown off by a big peak in the response skewing the starting levels, so I dug up my no EQ measurement of Mike's room. Sure enough...



While I'm sure the room treatment efforts might have smoothed some ripples, I'm sure it had little effect on that 15dB mountain at 45Hz. I expect a simple solution of re-running Audyssey with the SubMersive HP turned up 10-15dB louder on its volume dial.

The levels were set using a level meter with a noise test, which would be dominated by the peak, leaving the rest of the range rather low, and possibly prompting Audyssey to boost much of the range, especially down low. I suspect some digital or analog clipping is causing the problem at very low frequencies. Raising the starting level should cause Audyssey to attack the peak and not boost do so much boosting down low.

Originally Posted by Picasso Moon

I think you need to get in touch with Mark as this isn't normal. On my SubMersives dialing all the way down to -36 dB makes them near inaudible. Dialing the trim to 0dB would produce a massive amount of bass. Either way would be way more than the +/- 12 dB Audyessey could compensate for.

What does Audyssey set your sub trim set to in your pre/pro after you run it?

Originally Posted by Mark Seaton

Hi HyperM3,

I recall a message you had sent about the system sounding muddy at some point, but not the correlation to the new preamp, and especially not the problem related to no change from the volume dial. When the dial is full counter-clockwise (negative infinity symbol), it should be muted with no output. It sounds like something is misbehaving or not functioning properly in the system. Please give us an e-mail or a call to help troubleshooting and zeroing in on the source of the problem.

Originally Posted by pepar

Lowering the sub's gain and re-running Audyssey setup will simply make the receiver/processor compensate by trimming the channel by an additional 10-15dB.

Originally Posted by pepar

Are you saying Audyssey is causing the 15dB peak?

Originally Posted by Gary J






I believe so. Is 105.7 dB a lot for a sub?

Originally Posted by Gary J






I believe so. Is 105.7 dB a lot for a sub?

Originally Posted by pepar

If Audyssey boosted everything else to match the peak

Originally Posted by Gary J

Hard to believe Audyssey's algorithm includes such a scenario.

Originally Posted by pepar

A scenario with a response that is "mostly" flat but with a broad 15dB hump?

Originally Posted by pepar

Lowering the sub's gain and re-running Audyssey setup will simply make the receiver/processor compensate by trimming the channel by an additional 10-15dB. Since Mike's trim is already at -12dB and max trim is -15dB, that will result in the receiver/processor being unable to balance the channels and the sub channel being w-a-y too loud.

Are you saying Audyssey is causing the 15dB peak?

Originally Posted by craig john

The graph Mark posted was from 2 years ago when Mike had his old Halo and no Audyssey. That was the "raw" response of his room without the DSP-30 in the system. The 45 Hz peak was the inherent resonance in the room.

When I took out Mike's "old" amp it was set at -24. The new amp had to be turned almost all the way down, (-34 on a scale where -36 is the lowest setting), to measure -83 dB on the opening screen of Audyssey XT32, (where it tells you to set the level to 75 dB.) Even at it that low setting Audyssey still set the subwoofer trim at -12. I assumed the issue here was that the sub is corner-loaded in a very small room and the listening/measuring position is only about 2 ft. from the sub. With all those factors combined, I figured Mike was getting *huge* room reinforcement of the level, and that was what was causing the settings to be turned down so low.

Mark, I don't see how turning the sub gain up will keep the sub in the range allowed for Audyssey/Integra's trim setting. I suppose it could be set to -32, which should then result in a -14 trim setting. Beyond that, I think you get outside the pre/pro's trim range.

Or, are you speculating that Audyssey's EQ will knock down that big peak at 45 Hz and get the level closer to the "expected" level, and get it in range? If so, I'm not sure that will work. Audyssey doesn't go back and re-ping the speakers after the EQ is set to see if the levels have been impacted. It could be done afterwards with an SPL meter, but it wouldn't be done by Audyssey.

Thoughts?

Craig

Originally Posted by Gary J

For reference mine is corner loaded in an enclosed 12x23x8 room, 11 feet from LP . My amp level is 2 notches from off (whatever level that is). Even then the SVS Sub EQ measured it way high. Then MultEQ XT brought it back down to +9dB (still high but within acceptable range).

If the sub is indeed 2 feet from the main LP you may need to find another place for it.

Originally Posted by Mark Seaton

The only hurdle I see is if Audyssey will let you run with the level set higher. Really the level should probably be around -24dB on the dial. The problem is that an SPL meter type level adjustment will be dominated by the peak and leave the rest of the response set low. I suspect if I eventually get out there or if Mike can have someone use a pro kit or just display the subwoofer correction graphs we could tell a lot. The other test we should have Mike do is play the WOTW scene at -10dB on the main volume with Audyssey turned off and raise the level of the subwoofer by 10dB to determine if the protection is from the recorded content or by something in the Integra's chain being clipped or over-driven.

My suspicion described above basically revolves around how much of the Audyssey measured response is above the target level vs. below it. If it is pulling up the response that is below the line, this would solve the problem. This also might be related to very low frequency content which is still high enough in level to try and correct, where raising the level will keep from boosting the signal as much. Unknowns until some further tinkering is done.

Originally Posted by Mark Seaton

Hi prepar,

No, the measurement was of the raw SubMersive in-room with no EQ. That is an approximation of what Audyssey is getting as input to work with. Lowering the sub's gain won't help, and would probably make the problem worse if it is the problem I believe it is (can't be 100% sure yet).

The SubMersive's level needs to be RAISED, not lowered, so the area outside of the peak is at the average level. Exactly how and the order in which the level setting and response correction is handled becomes critical for an automated system with this process, and I do not know the exact process Audyssey uses.

Interestingly, this could very easily explain some of the odd subwoofer level settings I've observed after running Audyssey. Since the system never measures the acoustic response after correction, there is only so much they can do here.

Originally Posted by Mark Seaton

The only hurdle I see is if Audyssey will let you run with the level set higher. Really the level should probably be around -24dB on the dial. The problem is that an SPL meter type level adjustment will be dominated by the peak and leave the rest of the response set low.

Originally Posted by pepar

I guess that would fall to the system owner or their "assistants" to look at post-correction measurements. In trying to troubleshoot Mike's system, a post-correction measurement would be helpful, and I doubt that it would show the big hump. If that speculation is correct, then what *could* be causing the protection circuit to activate?

Jeff (pepar )