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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 172

post #5131 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by t4t3r View Post

Just wanted to make a quick post to thank craig john for allowing me to demo his system earlier this week. As is evidenced by his posts on this thread and many others, he was very welcoming and extremely helpful as we spent a couple hours going through well-known movie scenes and some music. My main goal was to demo the Submersives, but it was nice to finally have some firsthand experience of a "full-featured and purpose-built" HT as mine is far from that. I was really blown away by his attention to detail and the clean, balanced sound. It's hard for me to put into words how impressed I was with his HT, so I'll just sum it up with, "It was well-worth the trip."

Thanks! It was a pleasure to have you over, and to help you with your decision making process. This forum is a great resource, but there is *nothing* like actually auditioning these subs in person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t4t3r View Post

Onto the Submersives...simply put, they are awesome. I've now realized that I greatly prefer the sound of sealed enclosures, much to the dismay of my wallet. Their quickness is the first thing that caught my attention - no overhang at all, just clean, tight bass, and plenty of it. Craig john was kind enough to cycle through a couple different configurations of his system, the last of which was just 1 of his Submersives with Audyssey disabled. After we listened to a couple scenes, he mentioned never having listened to just 1 of the Submersives by itself in his room. While the difference was clearly noticeable, 1 Submersive was downright amazing and would probably be enough for me in that size room. The other 2 really rounded out the response and provided a good deal more impact, but, wow, I was infinitely more impressed with just 1 playing than I expected. Again, big thumbs up to craig john.

Yes, I too was surprised at how good one Submesive sounded. In fact, it was a real learning experience for me to listen to just one Submersive HP. I had never done that before. I had gotten two right away, and never listened to a single. My room doesn't have a lot of room gain, being fairly large, (3,800 cubic ft.), unsealed, (open to the stairwell and hall way), and having fairly extensive bass trapping. I was concerned about the one sub being overwhelmed by my room. Then, shutting off Audyssey, I really didn't expect much in the way of SQ. So, I was very pleasantly surprised at how good just one SubM HP sounded and how well it filled the room with bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t4t3r View Post

So now I have a decision to make. My current room (6k cu ft, open space) is not at all conducive to 1 or even 2 sealed enclosures, but I will be moving my HT to the basement eventually (planned for 3.5-4k cu ft, sealed) where a single or multiples will fare quite well. I've talked to Mark quite a few times recently, great guy to talk to and he answered all my questions and more. Now I just need to talk my credit card into it...

As we discussed when you were here, there are multiple other good options for sealed subs. However, I don't think any of them give you what the Submersive HP does, even with multiples of those other options. The SubM is an excellent starting point, and if you need more output, you can always save up and add another, (or 3.)

Craig
post #5132 of 8058
Mark,

I forgot to thank you for the tip below. Have set the SubM to -10db as you suggested and the AVR to -6db.

Sounds awesome now and since I am a set it and forget it type guy with the AVR I am pleased with your tip.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

While the resulting level is effectively the same, try raising the level on the SubMersive to -10dB and then make any further fine adjustments. Many have found receivers to be a bit happier if the LFE output is at or below -3dB to -6dB.

Our own forum doesn't have a lot of extra noise, but plenty visit and answer when questions do come up. Don't hesitate to jump in there as well.
post #5133 of 8058
Hi all and MS:

Just out of idle curiosity (and after combing about 40 pages of this thread with no answer), I'm wondering if anyone has yet to get a few 1/2M GP readings from a submersive HP.

I understand this is a fantastic subwoofer and it's on my radar for purchase, just curious as to how it performs from a pure SPL perspective relative to its competition, particularly in the typical 20-63 range.

I also have learned that it plumbs pretty deep. Where's the -3db point?

thanks,
James
post #5134 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post


I also have learned that it plumbs pretty deep. Where's the -3db point?

thanks,
James

Room gain determines it but in my room, I'm down 3db at 7hz !!
post #5135 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Hi all and MS:

Just out of idle curiosity (and after combing about 40 pages of this thread with no answer), I'm wondering if anyone has yet to get a few 1/2M GP readings from a submersive HP.

I understand this is a fantastic subwoofer and it's on my radar for purchase, just curious as to how it performs from a pure SPL perspective relative to its competition, so they typical 20-63 range.

I also have learned that it plumbs pretty deep. Where's the -3db point?

thanks,
James


James, I know I've seen a FR plot for the submersive by Mark on the Submersive forum, but could not quickly find it. It's in the thread (IIRC) where he announces the Submersive. I don't recall details adequately to give you the answer for an outdoor measurement.
post #5136 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Hi all and MS:

Just out of idle curiosity (and after combing about 40 pages of this thread with no answer), I'm wondering if anyone has yet to get a few 1/2M GP readings from a submersive HP.

I understand this is a fantastic subwoofer and it's on my radar for purchase, just curious as to how it performs from a pure SPL perspective relative to its competition, so they typical 20-63 range.

I also have learned that it plumbs pretty deep. Where's the -3db point?

thanks,
James

Hi James,

I have not published maximum output measurements on the SubMersive/SubMersive HP. Ground plane, 1m frequency response measurements for the original SubMersive are posted in the SubMersive thread on my forum. The program 1 (button IN) frequency response of the SubMersive HP is the same, with greater headroom and even more graceful overload handling. The program 2 (button OUT) frequency response shifts the +/-3dB ground plane response window from 19Hz (original) to 15Hz. In this thread and on my forum you will find many in-room measurements confirming that in the vast majority of rooms these ground plane responses provide in-room extension to 8-14Hz.

Some time after the weather warms up some here in the Chicago area I hope to produce some clear curves of both responses and some increasing output sweeps similar to what Keith Yates and Ilkka had published. This is most likely to happen when I am also testing other new products at the same time as the setup and prep for the process is an even bigger task than taking the measurements.
post #5137 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

James, I know I've seen a FR plot for the submersive by Mark on the Submersive forum, but could not quickly find it. It's in the thread (IIRC) where he announces the Submersive. I don't recall details adequately to give you the answer for an outdoor measurement.

That would be in the thread pinned in my forum titled, "The SubMersive". Obviously the pictures in that thread are quite old as you can find the pictures of the current shipping units and finish options elsewhere in the forum.
post #5138 of 8058
Thanks all and sorry for the horribly constructed sentence above- I was busy at work and got pulled away while I was in a rush to post.

Looks like I may have a buyer for my DT Trinity, which I have found to be a superb-performing subwoofer if not a bit over-imposing.

The idea is to start fresh and get something a little more low-profile (WAF) with comparable output and perhaps even better all-around performance for a larger space. Then, adding another after a spell, for (of course ) a bit more output and smoothing.

thanks again for the info.

James
post #5139 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi James,

I have not published maximum output measurements on the SubMersive/SubMersive HP. Ground plane, 1m frequency response measurements for the original SubMersive are posted in the SubMersive thread on my forum. The program 1 (button IN) frequency response of the SubMersive HP is the same, with greater headroom and even more graceful overload handling. The program 2 (button OUT) frequency response shifts the +/-3dB ground plane response window from 19Hz (original) to 15Hz. In this thread and on my forum you will find many in-room measurements confirming that in the vast majority of rooms these ground plane responses provide in-room extension to 8-14Hz.

Some time after the weather warms up some here in the Chicago area I hope to produce some clear curves of both responses and some increasing output sweeps similar to what Keith Yates and Ilkka had published. This is most likely to happen when I am also testing other new products at the same time as the setup and prep for the process is an even bigger task than taking the measurements.

Hi Mark,

When you attempt to re-create Ilkka's GP measurements, (or just to perform CEA-2010 measurements), how do you orient the Submersive? If you turn it so a non-driver surface faces the mic, the drivers are then further away from the mic than they would be on a front firing sub. If you turn it so the mic faces one of the drivers, the other driver is then quite a bit further away. This seems like a situation where the Submersive is, (technically), at a measurement disadvantage to a front firing or front ported sub.

Ilkka used the "acoustic center" of the subs he measured, but that wasn't consistent across different subwoofer designs. In the case of the Submersive, I don't know how you would figure the "acoustic center" of the sealed, dual-opposed design.

Quote:


Frequency response was measured crossover at its max and min settings and also bypassed if available. 10 second sine sweep from 200 Hz to 10 Hz was used. Level was matched at 90 dB at 50 Hz at 2 m distance. Mic was on the ground and the distance was measured from the acoustic center of the subwoofer. For sealed subs acoustic center lies right in front of the voice coil (front baffle was used for consistency). For vented and subs with passive radiator(s) acoustic center lies somewhere in between the driver(s) and the port(s)/PR(s). But because most of the output (vent/PR affects only near tuning frequency) comes from the driver, I measured the 2 m distance from the (active) driver also with vented/PR subs (using a directional line from the mic). If the sub had a port or PR on the back, the sub was rotated so both were equidistant to the mic. In some cases I also measured all combinations and choosed the one which gave better FR. Being consistant and fair to all subs regarding this matter is extremely difficult because of the various driver/port/PR combinations subwoofers have. If all subs were single driver, sealed, front-firing subs, there wouldn't be any problems. The key thing was to measure the 2 m distance from the point where the most of the output comes from, but also keep the other sources (if there was one or more) as close as possible to the 2 m distance. Subs were kept in their normal operating positions, for example base plates weren't removed or subs turned on their sides etc. Same orientation/position was used during all measurements. All graphs are using a full 1/24 octave resolution. +/- 3 dB points were calculated using maximum or bypass (if available) crossover setting.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...explained.html

Craig
post #5140 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Hi Mark,

When you attempt to re-create Ilkka's GP measurements, (or just to perform CEA-2010 measurements), how do you orient the Submersive? If you turn it so a non-driver surface faces the mic, the drivers are then further away from the mic than they would be on a front firing sub. If you turn it so the mic faces one of the drivers, the other driver is then quite a bit further away. This seems like a situation where the Submersive is, (technically), at a measurement disadvantage to a front firing or front ported sub.

Ilkka used the "acoustic center" of the subs he measured, but that wasn't consistent across different subwoofer designs. In the case of the Submersive, I don't know how you would figure the "acoustic center" of the sealed, dual-opposed design.


http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...explained.html

Craig

For representative and useful outdoor measurements the SubMersive should be far enough away and/or orient the SubMersive with the drivers side firing. The measurement I had posted was measured in this way at 1m from the solid side of the box (space used then was not quite open enough for ripple free, 2m measurements). Getting far enough away is the ideal, as the difference gets greatly reduced, but measuring from the acoustic center makes perfect sense for the SubMersive, where the 2 side drivers place the center in the dead center of the box. This would mean the 1m or 2m measurement would be from the center of the 17.5" depth of the sub as measured on the ground.

You could also lie the sub on the closed side with the amplifier on top and measure from the center someone really was concerned, but I haven't found this to have noticeable impact below 100Hz.
post #5141 of 8058
^ Me thoughts exactly (craigjohn).

I had the same question for my sub, the Trinity. With its quad, side-orientated radiators, many (myself included) found that a typical, one-mic GP measurement was not necessarily indicative of what the unit could do in a standard (room) application/overall output.

Surely, there's a similar quandry for a unit like the Submersive that outputs on either side of the cabinet?

I realize in the grand scheme of things this isn't the end of the world, I just present it for those who place a lot of value on GP measurement...obviously it doesn't tell the whole story, SPL-wise.

right?

BTW: is there a method that can utilize multiple mics and "sum" the output for units designed like the Submersive?

James
post #5142 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

For representative and useful outdoor measurements the SubMersive should be far enough away and/or orient the SubMersive with the drivers side firing. The measurement I had posted was measured in this way at 1m from the solid side of the box (space used then was not quite open enough for ripple free, 2m measurements). Getting far enough away is the ideal, as the difference gets greatly reduced, but measuring from the acoustic center makes perfect sense for the SubMersive, where the 2 side drivers place the center in the dead center of the box. This would mean the 1m or 2m measurement would be from the center of the 17.5" depth of the sub as measured on the ground.

You could also lie the sub on the closed side with the amplifier on top and measure from the center someone really was concerned, but I haven't found this to have noticeable impact below 100Hz.

Hi Mark. A purely theoretical question that's been rattling around my brain for a while. Thinking as subs as omni radiators within their passband, is there a significant difference in measured output when the mic faces a driver versus when the mic faces a non-driver side of the box (I think this question makes more sense for a single-driver box . . .)
post #5143 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Hi Mark. A purely theoretical question that's been rattling around my brain for a while. Thinking as subs as omni radiators within their passband, is there a significant difference in measured output when the mic faces a driver versus when the mic faces a non-driver side of the box (I think this question makes more sense for a single-driver box . . .)

+ a billion.

especially when you consider that "secondary" output could/will be further amplified by wall/corner placement?

James
post #5144 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Hi Mark. A purely theoretical question that's been rattling around my brain for a while. Thinking as subs as omni radiators within their passband, is there a significant difference in measured output when the mic faces a driver versus when the mic faces a non-driver side of the box (I think this question makes more sense for a single-driver box . . .)

Multiple drivers spaced in an enclosure have relatively easily predicted behavior. The changes in directivity are frequency and dimension related. The spacing and/or size of the drivers has to be a significant fraction of a wavelength before the output varies in different directions. In the case of the SubMersive, unless you are close enough to be significantly closer to one driver than the other it behaves as a single, omnidirectional source below about 150Hz where one wavelength is about 90". This correlates well as the driver to driver spacing is about 1/4 wavelength. At 200Hz differences just start to be measurable at a few dB differences. I don't have full measurements as quick measurements agreed with the models that it isn't a concern.
post #5145 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Multiple drivers spaced in an enclosure have relatively easily predicted behavior. The changes in directivity are frequency and dimension related. The spacing and/or size of the drivers has to be a significant fraction of a wavelength before the output varies in different directions. In the case of the SubMersive, unless you are close enough to be significantly closer to one driver than the other it behaves as a single, omnidirectional source below about 150Hz where one wavelength is about 90". This correlates well as the driver to driver spacing is about 1/4 wavelength. At 200Hz differences just start to be measurable at a few dB differences. I don't have full measurements as quick measurements agreed with the models that it isn't a concern.

Thanks so much Mark, for answering a semirandom question.
post #5146 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

For representative and useful outdoor measurements the SubMersive should be far enough away and/or orient the SubMersive with the drivers side firing. The measurement I had posted was measured in this way at 1m from the solid side of the box (space used then was not quite open enough for ripple free, 2m measurements). Getting far enough away is the ideal, as the difference gets greatly reduced, but measuring from the acoustic center makes perfect sense for the SubMersive, where the 2 side drivers place the center in the dead center of the box. This would mean the 1m or 2m measurement would be from the center of the 17.5" depth of the sub as measured on the ground.

You could also lie the sub on the closed side with the amplifier on top and measure from the center someone really was concerned, but I haven't found this to have noticeable impact below 100Hz.

Looks like that was how Ilkka measured the dual opposed sealed CSS SDX-15 which I think was the only dual opposed unit he tested? I assume the mic is at the end of the measuring tape you can see here...

post #5147 of 8058
My SubMersive arrived in Sydney last night and -- wow.
post #5148 of 8058
Will have to wait til 2012 for the 2nd SubMersive purchase, for now I decided on the least disruptive choice for finances and marriage and am upgrading my original single SubM to the HP amp, and I PayPal'd funds to Mark last night (had to get in before the amp price increases start in March). I chose the $900 upfront to get the HP amp shipped to me first along with the return label for my old amp (and $515 coming back to me after Mark receives my old one) because I do not want to go a day without sweet bass in my HT.

Even with 'just' the original 1000w amp on a single SubM, watching Transformers last night at -7 from 85db reference was a total joy - the SubMersive excels at explosive dynamic attack above 20hz while also adding tremendous atmosphere and sense of space/ambience from the extremely deep sub-20hz extension. The additional grunt from the 2400w amp is going to be fun

How awesome is it to own a product from a designer that enables current customers to take advantage of the latest improvements in such a reasonable manner? For me, this is part of what makes a Seaton sub such an outstanding value - because of who it's backed by. Thanks Mark!!

Cheers,
Ross
post #5149 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by eRav3r View Post

My SubMersive arrived in Sydney last night and -- wow.

This should be fun
post #5150 of 8058
That's great Ross. I really like mine and I can't wait to get dialed in even more. You will really like the improvements you get. Please post when you get it so we can hear what your thoughts are.
post #5151 of 8058
Glad to see that the happy owners from down under are getting their subs as well. Can't wait to hear all of the good stuff from people who got them.
post #5152 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

I decided on the least disruptive choice for finances and marriage and am upgrading my original single SubM to the HP amp

How awesome is it to own a product from a designer that enables current customers to take advantage of the latest improvements in such a reasonable manner? For me, this is part of what makes a Seaton sub such an outstanding value - because of who it's backed by. Thanks Mark!!

Cheers,
Ross

Awesome news Ross!

I agree on the Seaton customer service/support. There was a post on Seaton forum a month or two ago where Mark stated he would even update the DSP of the original 1000w amp to enable the 2nd DSP 15Hz program for the cost of round trip shipping.

Its great to know you could have bought a product from him over 4 years ago and still get an upgrade like this with no labor charges. Talk about terrific product support!!
post #5153 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by eRav3r View Post

My SubMersive arrived in Sydney last night and -- wow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandbagger View Post

This should be fun

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Glad to see that the happy owners from down under are getting their subs as well. Can't wait to hear all of the good stuff from people who got them.

In case there is any confusion, eRav3r ordered his more recently (after the group buy) and his was shipped directly rather than on the container which was just delivered to the DTV forum member who is disbursing the shipment to many anxious owners.

Great to hear you are enjoying your SubMersive eRav3r.
post #5154 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

In case there is any confusion, eRav3r ordered his more recently (after the group buy) and his was shipped directly rather than on the container which was just delivered to the DTV forum member who is disbursing the shipment to many anxious owners.

Great to hear you are enjoying your SubMersive eRav3r.

Mark it was a pleasure dealing with you.

For those considering an int'l import -- go for it! We arranged a deal over email and the Sub arrived a week after payment (Chicago to Sydney). The box itself was so impeccably protected that every corner is completely intact. You would think I picked this up from Mark's place myself.

As for performance -- after redoing my Audyssey EQ I only had about 10 minutes to have a play before we had to head to the airport but again -- wow.

I'm upgrading from an aging Velodyne CHT-10 (!).
post #5155 of 8058
It is safe to leave the SubMersive on 24/7? If I recall correctly, the amplifier draws very little power when idling. But what about the amplifier's life "longevity?" Is it normal for the amplifier to stay warm when leaving it on all the time?
post #5156 of 8058
Kain

I have one of the first 2 prototype submersives and it basically hasn't been turned off since early 2006( I think) when mark installed it. I have pounded on it very regularly and have even shut it down a few times I would think if there were any durability or longevity issues I would have found them by now.

Your ok leaving it on 24/7 as it draws very little power.

Kevin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post

It is safe to leave the SubMersive on 24/7? If I recall correctly, the amplifier draws very little power when idling. But what about the amplifier's life "longevity?" Is it normal for the amplifier to stay warm when leaving it on all the time?
post #5157 of 8058
Thanks to the generosity of a friend (Warpdrv), I have dual Submersive HP's up and running in my room. I've had my HP for about 6 months now and it has been very impressive overall. I have a rather large room at ~6,500cF room that is very open to other large rooms. The single HP has been good and nearly enough for me and my listening habits. But 2 Submersive HP's is a whole new ball game.

This post is a little premature as all I've done is lowered the gains a little to try 2 vs. 1. I plan to EQ them later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time. I'll post more when I get things dialed in.

I was really wondering what I'd gain with 2 subs vs. 1. For one, the impact of low bass scenes in movies seems to have significantly more impact. The floor of my house shakes more than it ever has. It's kind of crazy really. I don't even listen to movies very loudly either, so they aren't being pushed hard at all.

First impression: dual Submersive HP's = FUN!
post #5158 of 8058
That sounds great. Can't wait to hear more detailed thoughts. What were you using before the dual HP's?
post #5159 of 8058
I installed my HP amp upgrade and watched Megamind over the weekend. The final "combat" sequence between Megamind/Metro Man and Titan were just incredible with the increased HorsePower!

I don't know if I will ever get the okay for a second SubM, but I will throw out this question anyway. I left the DSP to program 1. With dual/multiple HPs, is there any advantage to setting one SubM on DSP 1 for more headroom, and on on DSP 2 for lower bass excursion? Or should both be set to DSP 2? Would mixed modes give a wider bass response, or would it actually somewhat defeat the purpose of duals?
post #5160 of 8058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

That sounds great. Can't wait to hear more detailed thoughts. What were you using before the dual HP's?

I'm planning to work with them this afternoon; measuring, comparing, and EQ'ing the pair. I hope to learn a lot about running dual subs.

I've owned a few "good" subs over the years from Klipsch and SVS. I received my Submersive HP in July to replace an SVS PB13-Ultra that I had for 2 years. I do think the Submersive HP was an upgrade for me in many ways over the PB13-Ultra. I just miss some of the amp features that the Ultra had. I've worked around them, so not a big deal.

One thing is for certain, these dual Submersive HP's are easily most bass I've ever had in any size room. What surprises me is that I expected a little gain from running duals, but after level matching, they still provide what seems more than double the impact for movies.
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