Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 224

Know that feeling all too well ...
- If you go to the gym and see many treadmills with numbers on them, do you pick the even numbered ones? I do!

- Are even numbered years the best years ever? For me, 2010, 2012 are great years! 2013 not so much, me thinks!

- If you see something placed crooked, do you feel the urge to straighten it out? Me does!

And it's 1000 in binary.

Yeah, but it only adds 3 dB over 4. How does *that* fit into the even-numbered OCD?

Hi dmusoke,

I haven't had a chance to fully catch up with the thread today, but I caught this question in my quick scanning. In many cases it comes down to locations available and the reasons behind the locations used. The Harman studies made some important confirmations, but don't apply to all rooms, especially if one wall of the room is much less rigid than another (ie brick/foundation vs. common stud/drywall). A big factor is that most can find room for 2 subwoofers at/near the front of the room, while locations are not always as flexible at the rear, often due to a door or walkway.

I've repeatedly found front and rear subwoofer locations to be key to efficiently delivering the entire subwoofer range to the listening area. Very open plan rooms can be an exception, but as soon as the back of the room has a defined wall, the 2nd subwoofer located on the depth of the room becomes key. A front subwoofer location dictates the subwoofer and front LCR to be subject to the same length related bass issues which no tinkering of the crossover will eliminate. If those length related issues include significant holes in the subwoofer response, adding a subwoofer past the midpoint or at the back of the room will typically be efficient where the front location is not. From there you need to blend the pair for the best combination at the seats.

So far as 3 vs 4, while using identical subs it is easy to insure you share the workload by setting the gains (volume dial) the same on each subwoofer and sending the same magnitude signal. The difference in efficiency at critical frequency ranges due to location in the room is often equal or more than the 6dB difference you would see from simply adding another subwoofer. In most systems, 3 vs. 4 just adds a little more headroom and some further smoothing and filling of holes in the response.

In many of the systems with 3 SubMersives, 2 could be placed to perform similarly, but that single sub would have to be about at the midpoint between say the front 2 subs if that is how they are placed. Such a location is not always available, and 3 subwoofers still have more headroom than 2.

As you have seen posted from others here, you will not yet find magazine published reviews on my products. That will likely change in the future, but I founded Seaton Sound with a focus on providing solutions to achieving the performance I was after when calibrating big dedicated theaters and comparable systems. To be honest, most of the magazines don't focus on such systems where they still have a living room & basement game room perspective on most gear. The expectations, technical sophistication and ambitions you see on AVS is well demonstrated in the dedicated theater section here as well as through the Home Theater Revealed DVD series advertized/sold through AVS. Not surprisingly, this is where my products are discussed the most and have the greatest following. We have been around 7 years now and continue to expand and grow. More mainstream visibility and attention are certain to be part of that in the future. Meanwhile we've made great strides this year to insure ready availability of the SubMersive HP and eventually our other products.

psst... that would be 6dB.

I have owned many, many others as well but I would go a bit further. I can think of no sub at any price where for less money I can get equal or better performance by using some number of SubMersives (From 1 to ??). For example, the uber expensive JL Audio Gotham at $12,000: I could use 3 SubMersives for a bit over half the price , getting better FR by optimal placement, lower extension, more headroom, etc, etc, etc!

I would take 3 or 4 SubMersives (at $6600 to $8800) over a PAIR of Gothams ($24,000) ANY day of the week. The Krell Thor, etc all would have the same issue.

Amazing product. While it doesn't have on-board EQ of any kind, in my room, it is not necessary (since I use Audyssey Pro).

I should not admit it but the thought crossed my mind. Not for more headroom but wondering what stacking the subs (raising off the floor) might do to the the FR in my room. I tested it with one sub on top of another and it did not help much so Mark lost the chance to sell an audio-moron 4 more SubMersives !!

Thanks for your input and detailed answers to my questions Mark.

I have been told you don't include a phase adjustment knob in your subs which i find suprising as you know most people will have 2 or more of your subs in their HT systems. I find it crucial to phase match the subs in my room. Afterwards, now that they appear as 'one' sub in my room, i then match this one sub to the mains around the x-over region by adjusting the subwoofer distance. I have an Anthem D2v pre-pro with ARC, its room correction system which allows me to manually set the sub distance.

I'm not sure if Audessy adjusts phase as part of its room correction algorithm but for others (like me), it would be helpful if this feature was implemented in your subs.

PS

I have 2 subs, one on the left center wall and the other in the rear. These were the best positions i found in my small-ish room that gives me the most even bass. I walk around the room and the bass remains even throughout the area. Phase matching the subs and then the mains afterwards gave me the smoothest if not invisible transition of bass wihin the xover region (70Hz - 90Hz) when transitioning between the subs and the mains.

Anyone able to point me to some plots for Max SPL vs Freq and Distortion vs Freq?

The Submersive does have a very legitimate competitor in the JTR Captivator "S". It can run wheel to wheel with the Submersive, for the same money, and take up less floor space. It is unfortunate that the JTR isn't marketed nearly as well as the Seaton sub. I don't even think it is on the JTR website, which is amazing to me. Once again I ask if there are any pics of the Seaton driver I can check out? I have seen numerous pics of the JTR, Velodyne, ED, CHASE, JL, HSU, Rythmik drivers but I can't seem to find the SubM driver. I can find plenty of pics of the finished product, but no drivers.

Of course it is... but that's an even number. Where's the fun in *that*???

Never took any pics of the driver in my Submersive but I have seen it. Cast aluminum with a heavy magnet. A pretty robust driver overall. I would say that Mark didn't cut any corners with this one.

Though being quite a newbee in this forum, I've read a lot about the Submersive and other Seaton products during the last months. Can't quote the source right now, but I remember to having read in this forum or Mark's that the Submersive's drivers are custom made by Eminence.

I agree and I think the Submersive driver is most likely a serious piece of hardware. Still, I find it suprising pics of the actual driver aren't around, especially considering how long the product has been available. Most subs like these are disected like a high school biology class frog by someone shortly after getting it. I mean you have to agree that no raw woofer pics for the SubM by now is at least slightly odd on the AV Science Forum.

LOL, I just hope pics don't start showing up out of focus or with a shakey cell phone video!! Then I'd know something is up!!

I recall some pictures of the driver being posted but its been a while.

Frankly, I think we can all get hung up on huge magnets, etc. Bottom line is what does it sound like.

@kgb...

never bothered to take mine out to take a pic... but i bet if you drop mark an email, he likely has a pic or two lying around....

not pics of the driver, but here is a collection of pics showing the box construction.... pretty cool...

clicky

Even without pictures of drivers, professional reviews, and a web site mark still stays pretty much sold out. When he says he has plenty of stock that means "hurry up before they go".
He relies on the product to speak for itself and makes himself available for any and all questions.
The man takes pride in his work and his product shows. It may take him longer to reach the mainstream but he is building an empire. Custom made subwoofers, speakers, cabinets, crossovers, and amps all of the highest quality take long and hard hours to setup the foundation network of resources and manufactures available that can keep up with his demand.
I like the idea "Less is more".
Once someone owns a subm hp you will understand.Questions answer themselves.
wvchris

I don't find it even mildly "surprising" (or "odd"). I don't buy drivers when I buy speakers -- I buy sound quality, customer service, reputation, build quality, physical appearance.

And apparently the other hundreds (or maybe thousands) of SubMersive owners don't either.

i have seen them. i found the link in this thread but the op deleted them

actually the drivers are not that purty to look at like a nice hot sexy LMS Ultra 5400 is but really it's about the sound not how cool the drivers look

i believe mark has asked owners not to post pics of the drivers. he wants people to judge the sub on it's merits. not how awesome the drivers look

if i'm wrong about that i sit corrected i'm sure

All good points and I do agree the SubM is world-class. That being said I would still, at some point, like to see the whole woofer. I agree performance is most important but knowing what lurks in the beasts innards is interesting to say the least. I would think anyone with a passion, or even a above average interest in these products would like to know. I ceratinly do!!

Great! Who doesn't buy for those reasons? I am not asking for your qualifications for a purchase audioguy, I just asked if there were pics of the driver around. And I also thank you for you adept summarization for the other (maybe thousands) of SubM owners. It's funny, someone posts a pics of cabinet internals and drivers and it usually gets referred to as "sub porn" (as long as its worth it!!). I ask a simple question about a lack of driver pics from a sub that has been around sicen I think '06 and I am given reasons why I shouldn't have seen it. Oh well, maybe I'll have to open mine to find out.

I know the amp is made to be replaced if need be and that won't void the warranty. I wonder if taking the drivers out would do such a thing. Just a thought. As long as it works, I really don't need to see the drivers. Not that it wouldn't have some sort of cool factor. I remember seeing some pics of the older JM Labs Utopia Be drivers and thought they looked pretty bad ass. But I am not going to be lying awake at night wondering what the driver looks like on the inside. I am sure it is as sturdy as Mark needs it to be.

2004 and i believe your question has been answered

if you need more info i suggest you contact mark via his website

For those interested: I did some research and found possible candidates, which seems to be matching the SubM's components. I can't guarantee it's right but I guess the driver is a custom made Eminence LAB 15.
The amp seems to be a 2400W Speakerpower SP1 OEM.

If one of the major audio players performed a review of the SubM, ... Katy bar the door


Subsequently playing that out,....I'm not sure if that'd be a good thing, or a bad thing....

Please, don't mis-understand me, I wish Mark all the luck in the world. As one examines the landscape of individuals on similar paths, he's like the gold standard of enthusiast DIY'er, ....turned manufacturer.

-------

How about a little fun;....
A major review would be akin to the NFL draft. Here's the scenario; Seaton is like the best collegiate player in the country. Arguably and measurably better than any pro. Along comes the draft(review) and all the money/success one could ever hope for. My point, the Colts essentially tossed a coin to either draft Ryan Leaf, or Peyton Manning.


"Their passing skills were hard to differentiate as they were being evaluated closely in the pre-draft process. Both were about the same size, at 6-5 and 230-plus pounds, and Leaf had the slight edge with his cannon arm. What advantage Manning had with his family pedigree and seasoning as a senior coming out of Tennessee, Leaf could compensate with his immense potential as a deep drop-back passer out of Washington State."

"The overwhelming consensus: Manning may have the more recognizable name, but Leaf clearly is the preferred quarterback among league executives. Fourteen of the 20 polled said they would draft Leaf over Manning, citing the Washington State quarterback's stronger arm, better mobility and more promising long-term prospect as a franchise-caliber player."

Ryan Leaf today.

Just sayin'



BTW; Peyton,...er,... Mark, I sent you an email a bit ago....



Thanks

Sitting here waiting for my submersive to arrive. It's "out for delivery".

I won't be taking it apart to take driver pictures

Thanks Mark

Steve

Take pictures of the SubM itself anyways. I'm so anxious to get my pair and 3 Cat 12Cs to match

^^^

not acoustic, but here's a pic of mine to tide you over...

I know Mark answered that exact same question earlier in this thread or it was on one of the JTR threads. I can't explain but will try to search for the thread where he answered it.

I think I found it:



hope this helped.