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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 228

post #6811 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

They are not even close to pushed to the walls. Are you just making stuff up now? No, I will not be taking pics to prove it. Nice room, huh? - all enclosed.

If your speakers are like the Maggies I used to have then you indeed have them WAY too close to the walls. Mine sounded best 4 feet away from the back wall and sounded like poo if they were within 18 inches fromt the wall. Yours are way closer than that.
post #6812 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

If your speakers are like the Maggies I used to have then you indeed have them WAY too close to the walls. Mine sounded best 4 feet away from the back wall and sounded like poo if they were within 18 inches fromt the wall. Yours are way closer than that.

I am in the mountain home right now so I can not give you exact measurements but I can assure you the fronts are at least 20" (probably more), toed in, the sides probably a little closer, not Maggies or even like them, and sound wonderful. I will also pass on taking advice from someone (not you) who once placed a HP TWO FEET from someones ear. To his credit he seemed to have learned from the experience though.
post #6813 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I am in the mountain home right now so I can not give you exact measurements but I can assure you the fronts are at least 20" (probably more), toed in, the sides probably a little closer, not Maggies or even like them, and sound wonderful. I will also pass on taking advice from someone (not you) who once placed a HP TWO FEET from someones ear. To his credit he seemed to have learned from the experience though.

Gari j,

Your research assignment for today is to explain what is wrong with nearfield placement of a subwoofer. There will be a quiz.

There is no way this speaker is 20" from the rear or side walls:



You may not want HT advice, but you clearly need it. Here is a short list of the "big mistakes" you've made in your HT:
  • side surround speakers 2 ft. from the listening position, (which would be far worse than a sub 2 ft. from the LP!)
  • bipole speakers pushed tight to the walls (why buy bipoles if you're going to eliminate the rear speaker output by pushing them tight to the walls?)
  • white walls in a dedicated HT with a projector and screen, (a $15K Runco projector in a room with white walls?)
  • no seat in the sweet spot, (both seats compromised!)
  • buying speakers with powered woofers only to use Bass Management, (seems a waste to spend the money for powered woofers only to send the bass to the sub!)
  • hard reflective objects at the early reflection points, (clearly no knowledge of acoustics!)
  • total lack of acoustic treatments, (ditto above!)

You act like a know-it-all, yet you've made so many basic blunders in your own system, I'm surprised its watchable/listenable.

More importantly, you have zero credibility when it comes to giving anyone else advice.

Craig
post #6814 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Gari j,

Your research assignment for today is to explain what is wrong with nearfield placement of a subwoofer. There will be a quiz.

There is no way this speaker is 20" from the rear or side walls:



You may not want HT advice, but you clearly need it. Here is a short list of the "big mistakes" you've made in your HT:
  • side surround speakers 2 ft. from the listening position, (which would be far worse than a sub 2 ft. from the LP!)
  • bipole speakers pushed tight to the walls (why buy bipoles if you're going to eliminate the rear speaker output by pushing them tight to the walls?)
  • white walls in a dedicated HT with a projector and screen, (a $15K Runco projector in a room with white walls?)
  • no seat in the sweet spot, (both seats compromised!)
  • buying speakers with powered woofers only to use Bass Management, (seems a waste to spend the money for powered woofers only to send the bass to the sub!)
  • hard reflective objects at the early reflection points, (clearly no knowledge of acoustics!)
  • total lack of acoustic treatments, (ditto above!)

You act like a know-it-all, yet you've made so many basic blunders in your own system, I'm surprised its watchable/listenable.

More importantly, you have zero credibility when it comes to giving anyone else advice.

Craig

Here's an even shorter list - I said the fronts are 20" (pay attention), none are tight to walls, walls are Kodak Grey not white (you will learn about this when you get dedicated HT), multi-person HT - don't want sweet spot seat, have never known the pain of HP 2' from ears, HT looks and sounds great.

time for IPA refill.
post #6815 of 9372
SOOOOO back on topic?
post #6816 of 9372
So, I am rebuilding my home theater (equipment wise) and I am thinking of starting off my big purchases with another SubM HP. I t will be paired with some old PSB Image speakers (6T, 9C, 2B) and either an Onkyo Or R972 receiver. I know there are so many other things I could update first, but I think the SubM HP will be the one thing that really doesn't ever get upgraded so... Is this a good idea or a bad one? lol
post #6817 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrunr View Post

So, I am rebuilding my home theater (equipment wise) and I am thinking of starting off my big purchases with another SubM HP. I t will be paired with some old PSB Image speakers (6T, 9C, 2B) and either an Onkyo Or R972 receiver. I know there are so many other things I could update first, but I think the SubM HP will be the one thing that really doesn't ever get upgraded so... Is this a good idea or a bad one? lol

Your reasoning sounds very good to me
post #6818 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Here's an even shorter list - I said the fronts are 20" (pay attention), none are tight to walls,

C'mon Gari, a picture is worth a thousand words. YOUR OWN pictures show them much closer than 20". If you've moved them since you took the pic's, that's fine. Just state that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

...walls are Kodak Grey not white (you will learn about this when you get dedicated HT),

If you mean Kodak "gray card," that is a card with a very specific color of gray, with 18% light reflectance and a very specific combination of red, green and blue, to yield a very precise color balance. It's used to calibrate the white balance of cameras. I had gray card colored walls in my HT at one time. My wife declared them to be too drab and boring. She re-did the color palate with deep reds, dark greens and rich browns and golds, with a black dropped ceiling, (which you can see in the link in my signature.) All the colors and fabrics have lower than 18% light reflectance. The room looks a lot better aesthetically, AND it has much lower light reflectance than the gray card did.

More importantly, if the pictures of your room are accurate, there is no way your room is a true gray card. Here is what gray card looks like:



Compare that to the walls in your room:



Either your pics are woefully inaccurate, or you were sold a totally incorrect paint by some unscrupulous paint store employee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

...multi-person HT - don't want sweet spot seat,

How noble of you. However, if you have the choice of 1 compromised seat plus 1 uncompromised seat, vs. 2 compromised seats, the truly noble thing to do would be to select the former... and then give the good, uncompromised seat to your partner. That way, at least one listener gets the best sound. The "big mistake" thing to do is to compromise BOTH seats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

have never known the pain of HP 2' from ears,

Gari, you are unfortunately receiving a failing grade on your research assignment. If you really think "pain" is the result of nearfield subwoofer placement, you have obviously failed to do the proper research. Pain has never been reported as a consequence of nearfield placement of a subwoofer, even one as powerful as a Submersive HP. For example, I can sit on the floor right next to any one of my Submersive HP's and not feel any "pain" even at full RL.

People who use and recommend nearfield placement describe the benefits as increases in impact, pressurization and tactile response. You have yet to describe any specific downsides to a nearfield subwoofer placement. If you can not do so, you will be given a failing grade on your research assignment.

No IPA for you tonight.

Craig
post #6819 of 9372
Guess that pretty much sums that up. LOL
post #6820 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Mother View Post

Guess that pretty much sums that up. LOL

Yes the lengths Mr. Do It My Way will go to shows he does not have it in him to admit he is wrong but at least folks now know to apply a common sense filter to the babble. End of story is a HP 2' from the ears in the MLP is insane.
post #6821 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Yes the lengths Mr. Do It My Way will go to shows he does not have it in him to admit he is wrong but at least folks now know to apply a common sense filter to the babble. .

You do the exact same thing....then again, I think you both enjoy it.
post #6822 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

End of story is a HP 2' from the ears in the MLP is insane.

How is 2' any different than 12'? If a nearfield sub is calibrated and integrated properly with the rest of the system it won't matter. The amp's gain is just set lower than a sub 12' away.
If anything nearfield placement can often minimize the influence of the room on what is heard at the MLP.

The more you bring this up the sillier you seem.
Tim
post #6823 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodorthopod View Post

the more you bring this up the sillier you seem.
Tim

+1,000,000
post #6824 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post


Here's an even shorter list - I said the fronts are 20" (pay attention), none are tight to walls, walls are Kodak Grey not white (you will learn about this when you get dedicated HT), multi-person HT - don't want sweet spot seat, have never known the pain of HP 2' from ears, HT looks and sounds great.

time for IPA refill.

You claim your walls are Kodak grey? Not exactly!

These walls were computer matched from a grey card. Your walls are NOT Kodak grey.



But I do like the clever management of your first reflection point on the wall as a nice hard glass/metal object. I don't remember reading about the positive impact that would have on sound control in any of the well known books on room acoustics.

A movie came to mind when I saw how much consideration was given to proper room treatment from the photos of your room. It starred Alicia Silverstone, Stacey Dash, Brittany Murphy, et al
post #6825 of 9372
LOL, you guys are gonna make him crawl under a rock. Hmm.... proceed.

After seeing those speaker placement pics, I guess that's why I've never seen any acoustic measurements provided by Gary.


Max
post #6826 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

LOL, you guys are gonna make him crawl under a rock. Hmm.... proceed.
Max

You reap what you sow....he's had this coming for a while.
post #6827 of 9372
Bring up all the diversions you like. the topic at hand is craigs johns placing a 2400 watt HP 2' from a person's listening positions ear which is absurd.
post #6828 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Bring up all the diversions you like. the topic at hand is craigs johns placing a 2400 watt HP 2' from a person's listening positions ear which is absurd.

Craig asked a very legitimate question which you have refused to answer. And the statements are not diversions. They clearly demonstrate to anyone with a modicum of knowledge of audio that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are quick (and relentless) to criticize Craig with ZERO background to do so.

So you have NEVER heard the system being discussed. And you have clearly, and frequently demonstrated more than enough times that you lack even the basics of audio knowledge. But yet you continue to claim the sub setup absurd.

Give it a rest !!!
post #6829 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Bring up all the diversions you like. the topic at hand is craigs johns placing a 2400 watt HP 2' from a person's listening positions ear which is absurd.

Please provide something... anything... that backs up your assertions that this placement causes pain, is insane or absurd.

You seem to think *I* placed this sub in this position. You should know that I wasn't the one who originally placed the sub in the location you called the "biggest mistake." Mark Seaton placed it there. The owner wanted it placed there. Mark delivered the sub, carried it upstairs and placed it where the owner wanted it, which was literally the only place it could be placed with the room configured the way it was. Then Mark Seaton measured the response, and calibrated and EQ'd it so it sounded fantastic. There was no "pain" or "insanity" or "absurdity" involved whatsoever. So, if you still think that placement was the biggest mistake, you are actually accusing Mark of making the mistake, not me. You may not like or respect me, (which I am absolutely fine with), but be careful who you insult. You're in *way* over your head insulting Mark Seaton.

Craig
post #6830 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Bring up all the diversions you like. the topic at hand is craigs johns placing a 2400 watt HP 2' from a person's listening positions ear which is absurd.

Unfortunately you are mistaken, and don't mind looking foolish by persisting in this manner.
The wavelengths of the majority of frequencies produced by any sub are longer than the distance between sub and LP so what's the difference between 2' and 12' if both are calibrated correctly?

Have you ever heard a properly set up nearfield sub?
Tim
post #6831 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodorthopod View Post

Have you ever heard a properly set up nearfield sub?
Tim

Of course he hasn't. He's too busy being critical of forum members and highly respected speaker manufacturers.

I am a bit surprised the moderators have allowed him to do this so frequently.
post #6832 of 9372
And in a calibrated system with one row of seats, 115db peaks are 115db peaks whether the sub is 1' away or 12' away. In addition, the bass frequencies are far less susceptible to air decay in-room than the higher frequencies are. A speaker playing flat at 105db from 2' away will be significantly softer than that to someone else sitting 5' away (but 105db peaks are still 105db peaks, whether the speaker is 2' or 12' away. The 2' speakers will just need a lot less power to hit those peaks. My nearfield studio monitors are setup and calibrated 3' from my ears). A sub on the other hand, not so much. The air decay is much less evident for the lowest octaves, so seats a few feet apart in a moderately sized room experience far less amplitude variation than in the higher frequencies.

On the other hand, shoving bipole speakers in the corners with no first reflection corrections, nice white walls for a front projection setup.... LOL.


Max
post #6833 of 9372
Craig and Chuck, I do not know why you continue to feed the Troll. He does the same thing in every thread he subscribes to, some of the same ones I do. He thrives on being confrontational. I too now have a ULS 15 within 2' of my LP. I had a sound engineer visit my place a month ago and he swore the closest sub was not even on until I showed him the cone moving.
post #6834 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Please provide something... anything... that backs up your assertions that this placement causes pain, is insane or absurd.

You seem to think *I* placed this sub in this position. You should know that I wasn't the one who originally placed the sub in the location you called the "biggest mistake." Mark Seaton placed it there. The owner wanted it placed there. Mark delivered the sub, carried it upstairs and placed it where the owner wanted it, which was literally the only place it could be placed with the room configured the way it was. Then Mark Seaton measured the response, and calibrated and EQ'd it so it sounded fantastic. There was no "pain" or "insanity" or "absurdity" involved whatsoever. So, if you still think that placement was the biggest mistake, you are actually accusing Mark of making the mistake, not me. You may not like or respect me, (which I am absolutely fine with), but be careful who you insult. You're in *way* over your head insulting Mark Seaton.

Craig

Ya, but what does Mark know?...
post #6835 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Mother View Post

Ya, but what does Mark know?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Extreme near field placement is actually not a preference of mine

out of context, blah, blah. do the research.
post #6836 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

out of context, blah, blah. do the research.

It's not my first choice either. That's not the point. The point is that it is still a very legitimate way to set up a subwoofer, and it can be made to work quite well. Does Mark say *anywhere* that it causes pain, or is absurd or insane? No! He says it's not a "preference." Nonetheless, in some situations, it is the best or only alternative. A thoughtful person optimizes those alternatives as much as possible, which is exactly what Mark did in this situation. It was definitely NOT the "biggest mistake" as you've portrayed it.

Craig
post #6837 of 9372
Gary, what is it that makes placing a sub 2' from the listening position that makes it absurd? If I had to choose between a spot with good, flat frequency response that happens to be 2' from the listening position or a spot further away with nulls and bumps, I'd pick the spot with the better frequency response, whether it's 2' or 20' from the listening position, then adjust the level accordingly.

Most people I have over when I have a movie playing also notice that the spot in my non-treated room that has the most bass is the opposite side of the room from where the sub is located. So basically, the bass from the subwoofer is "louder" at 14' from the subwoofer then it is 2' from the subwoofer so I doubt the level being too loud or too intense 2' from the subwoofer, would be an issue. Now if your talking 2' from the left, center or right speakers when the rest of the speakers are 10 feet away, then that would be a problem. Not so much with a subwoofer.
post #6838 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

Craig and Chuck, I do not know why you continue to feed the Troll. He does the same thing in every thread he subscribes to, some of the same ones I do. He thrives on being confrontational. I too now have a ULS 15 within 2' of my LP. I had a sound engineer visit my place a month ago and he swore the closest sub was not even on until I showed him the cone moving.

Hi HTG,

I wish I could let the inaccurate statements just slide, but when they are aimed directly at me, I can't do that. More importantly, he's being wrongfully critical of a system that belongs to a very good friend of mine, a system that my friend loves dearly, and is very important to him. His commentary is hurtful, and the fact that it is totally incorrect makes it absolutely unacceptable. I won't let that slide. My friend won't get into these arguments discussions, but I don't mind setting the record straight.

I'm sorry if that is "feeding the troll", but I will continue to call him out when he's wrong, which is not infrequent.

Craig
post #6839 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post


out of context, blah, blah. do the research.

Do you think Mark Seaton hasn't already done that?

Nobody is saying his setup is ideal, but given the room dimensions, furniture, possible WAF, etc. I'm sure Mark has the sub running in an optimal manner...and a "painless" one at that.
post #6840 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

do the research.

You officially get an F. It was your research assignment, not ours. Those of us who have experienced a nearfield subwoofer placement know that you're wrong. It's up to you to provide something... anything... to prove that there are "big mistakes" involved in nearfield subwoofer placement.

Craig
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