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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 241

post #7201 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

I was at the same GTG. I liked them so much that I'm getting a couple of F2's - along with 7 of their friends. wink.gif
But there are no measurements from a "pro" reviewer!!! tongue.gif

That's probably a good thing for me. I would be reading the review over and over until the speakers arrived. biggrin.gif
post #7202 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Has anyone heard any update on the 240V version of the Submersive HP? Is it out yet?

If you go to Mark's own forum you can ask to be put on the email list to be notified when these are available. I am waiting to buy one (or two) F2s with the 2400 watt amp and the 240v power supply (I am in the UK). I did email Mark a couple of weeks ago to ask him if he had any of the original F2s available (1000 watt amp) as these are already 240v-compatible and can be upgraded later to the new amp, but I haven't heard back from him. I guess he gets a LOT of emails every day!

post #7203 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

I was at the same GTG. I liked them so much that I'm getting a couple of F2's - along with 7 of their friends. wink.gif

Why did you go with the F2's over the submersive HPs?

Rather than beating around the bush, on some other occassions, I believe Mark said that from 80hz down, they're essentially identical. My thoughts are that low frequency effects extend to 120 hz and as such if the F2s perform better in the 80-120hz region.

Thoughts?

I picked the F2's over the HP's strictly because of their looks - damn they are sexy. I know that it make absolutely no difference (confirmed by Mark), but I just prefer front firing vs. opposing speakers - it's strictly a mental thing. I could be wrong, but I have no reason to believe that the F2's are better better in the 80-120hz range.

Why do you think that they may?
post #7204 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

I picked the F2's over the HP's strictly because of their looks - damn they are sexy. I know that it make absolutely no difference (confirmed by Mark), but I just prefer front firing vs. opposing speakers - it's strictly a mental thing. I could be wrong, but I have no reason to believe that the F2's are better better in the 80-120hz range.
Why do you think that they may?

I own HP's and have seen F2's. The F2's are the clear winner in the looks department (if you keep the grills off). They just look "meaner". And with the grills off and in one of the nicer finishes (like Cherry) you can see more of the wood. Stunning.
post #7205 of 9384
I just love the look ot the F2's - by far Marks most impressive looking speaker
wonder how long can hold off on getting a couple -
Audioguy - I need some intervention
post #7206 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by logicators View Post

Perhaps he can submit the F2 instead of regular Subm HP to avoid dual opposed measurement issues?

Speaking of the F2, has anyone gone from a submersive HP to an F2?

If so....could you tell much difference from 80-120hz?

The only difference anyone would notice is from the exact location of the drivers. Whether or not the difference is just measurable vs audible, and beneficially or detrimental will be room dependent. I can say that in a big open warehouse they sound identical when crossed at 80Hz. Of course some will always feel better looking at the drivers pumping air directly at them. The F2 does look pretty slick. It also costs more to build the way I chose to construct it. Note the F2 has M6 rather than 1/4-20 T-Nuts for the feet, so it's possible to use many aftermarket spikes like these or these from Parts Express (there's no reason to use them on a standard SubMersive other than for aesthetic value).
post #7207 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

Audioguy - I need some intervention

That would be like an alcoholic asking another alcoholic to help not drink. If I could figure out anyway to even partially justify any more Seaton speakers I would probably already have ordered them.

HI. My name is Chuck and I'm a Seaton-o-hoiic !!
post #7208 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

I picked the F2's over the HP's strictly because of their looks - damn they are sexy. I know that it make absolutely no difference (confirmed by Mark), but I just prefer front firing vs. opposing speakers - it's strictly a mental thing. I could be wrong, but I have no reason to believe that the F2's are better better in the 80-120hz range.
Why do you think that they may?


Just my imagination.

As OCD as I can be at times, I'll probably sell the HP and get the F2, then wish I had kept the HP. eek.gif.
Edited by JimP - 10/29/12 at 10:16am
post #7209 of 9384
Is there any place to get the brochures?
post #7210 of 9384
I've been trying to follow the GTG and some posts on here, but have a few questions... I'm looking to get ONE F2 for my room, as it seems to have the perfect corner dimensions for me. However, it seems like all these gatherings or tests have multiple submersives in use? I hope a couple or few of these bad boys would have gobs of output, but how about just one?? Like how much more output or extension would a single F2 have over a dual drive ULS-15?? OR SB13's?? I currently have dual SB12's and looking for more, I just don't know how much or if its warranted the price? I appreciate any help...
post #7211 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

I picked the F2's over the HP's strictly because of their looks - damn they are sexy. I know that it make absolutely no difference (confirmed by Mark), but I just prefer front firing vs. opposing speakers - it's strictly a mental thing. I could be wrong, but I have no reason to believe that the F2's are better better in the 80-120hz range.


Why do you think that they may?

Aesthetic value was the sole impetus for my dual-F2 purchase as well. As soon as Mark confirmed the lack of performance hit, i sprung for 'em. I haven't seen the other finishes, but that rosenut finish is truly a sight to behold.
post #7212 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

As the super- villain of the Seaton Sound world at the moment, I figured I'd stop in and offer my two cents:
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Chris,
Chill out, dude. smile.gif
I didn't get the impression that wonka1 was dissing the Submerive at all. It appeared he was just looking for some 3rd party verification that the SubM is everything we say it is. I think that is a legitimate question. Unfortunately, there is no positive answer that I'm aware of. I don't think Mark has ever had one independently tested. He's selling everything he can make right now and doesn't need "reviews" to increase sales.

Thanks for the reasoned response Craig. Just so no one confuses, in no way am I saying we don't want more sales. Just that I've first invested in the fulfillment side rather than the sales generation. In spite of year over about 90% growth, we have stock of every SubMersive finish other than piano black with about 50 SubMersives HPs or F2s ready to be loaded with amps and ship out in a day or even the same day, and we keep working to get ahead of orders and have black maple or oak Catalyst 12C's at similar level of readiness.

I feel this is a more responsible order of operations than pushing for every bit of attention to something we can't deliver in a timely manner. The next phase is the website. Only after that will you see any sort of review, 3rd party measurement, sponsorship or advertising efforts. It's of limited benefit and sometimes even detrimental to attract many new first impressions without a proper place to direct them with appropriate information. I know many want everything to be done immediately, but that's not how we've ever operated in growing through our 7.5 years of operation. BTW, all but 2 of those years have been profitable, and we're entirely self funded, with a reasonable line of credit to help manage the growth of the company. Compare that to AV123 who manipulated their purchases and investments to insure they never once showed a profit, and accordingly were unable to get operating credit even after years of operation and sales growth. My design work with the MFW-15 and other AV123 products to be nearly pulled Seaton Sound down the drain, but I quickly got back to our own focus and we've had enviable growth ever since. The more recent collapse of eD is directly related to managing all of these issues above where interest greatly outpaced supply, prices were too low to allow them to close the gap, and mismanagement left them with a death sentence when they were unable to ship or order further parts.

As things function now, those who find us have either been referred by a friend and have already been given some background, or find us through various forums and already have done significant research on the experience others have had. We are well equipped at the moment to make these customers happy (international sales still involve a good deal of work). I want to have a little more infrastructure in place before we gain larger visibility to continue adding more happy customers.

If you look back to page one of this thread, you will see the first SubMersives were delivered in May-June of 2006. There have been a few running tweaks and refinements along with the HP upgrade in July of 2010 allowing those first customers to upgrade to the latest evolution. How many serviceable subwoofers on the market still are a target of performance more than 6 years after introduction?
Quote:
Quote:
BTW, outdoor, groundplane testing is a legitimate and very useful tool for evaluation of the *baseline* subwoofer performance. In-room tests of subwoofers are really just tests of the room. Outdoor GP tests take the room out of the equation and provide insight on the "baseline" capabilities of a subwoofer. They provide a level playing field for the comparison of subwoofer performance. Josh Ricci's Data-Bass http://www.data-bass.com/home is the best resource currently available for baseline comparisons of subwoofers. He measures every sub the same way, with multiple measures of performance, (i.e., frequency response, transient response, max output, power compression, distortion, etc.) Combined, all these measurements provide a overall picture of the performance envelope of a subwoofer, and, since they are performed the same way by the same tester, they can be used to compare the performance of one sub to another.

Craig, I appreciate this measured response (pardon the pun). While I might come off as far more of a pr*ck saying it, in the end, this is all I'm trying to get out there. I hope (and have faith) that Mark is a man of his word, and that when the time is right from a business perspective for him, he will send his subs in for review. Hopefully this more moderated post meets with less venom than what was typing last night.

Cheers gents.

I've been involved with extensive subwoofer measurements before they were readily available to enthusiasts. I was working with Tom Danley at ServoDrive at thie time where Tom, myself, and many well regarded experts all gave Keith Yates feedback on what sort of measurements would be useful for his Way Down Deep articles published in 2004 issues of Sterophile's Guide to Home Theater. Keith parsed through the wide range of input and came up with a more comprehensive measurement set than I believe had been previously published. We submitted the ContraBass for a unique inclusion for the measurements of many different subwoofers. Later Ed Mullen (then enthusiast, now part of the SVS team) continued related testing as an enthusiast and then reviewer before SVS snatched him up. Illka later really stepped things up in polishing displays and presentation where he was eventually snatched up by Genelec. While Illka was testing we also saw AVtalk in the UK perform related testing which allowed for some comparison between different testers and conditions. With Illka earning a living in the industry, many were hopeful someone would pick up where he had left off. Ricci started taking many measurements of his own subwoofers and DIY efforts and continued to refine a very impressive measurement process and now an equally impressive means to display and compare the data.

Illka and AVTalk being across the pond didn't work out well when I was a much smaller operation than we are today. Even with many measurements out there, the many e-mails and calls I would reiterate the self professed confusion and limited understanding of what any of the numbers and graphs mean in terms of what customers will hear in their room. In the past year Josh Ricci has done a great job in both adding a wide range of subwoofer types and examples while also providing great explanation and context to what readers are looking at. Again, once the website is up, we'll see if there is any interest to do some measurements or reviews.
post #7213 of 9384
Mark,

IMO, your current business model seems ideal to keep you growing into the future. However, if you ever decide to run a raffle, call Chu Gai first so he can talk you down from that ledge!!! biggrin.gif

Craig
post #7214 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Just my imagination.
As OCD as I can be at times, I'll probably sell the HP and get the F2, then wish I had kept the HP. eek.gif.

Much better idea: Keep the HP AND get the F2, then no looking back. Plus, there is no such thing and too many Seaton Subs as it greatly improves placement options and hence, improved frequency response. Furthermore, you could become the Seaton Product Distribution center of Alabama!!
post #7215 of 9384
It's come down to either the Subm or the SVS pc13 ultra for me. I can only do one sub in my 25x15 room. Right now I have an Svs 20-30 pc+, I occasionally bottom it out. When all is said & done it will cost me about $825 more for the Subm. I know the pc is a fine sub, do you guys here think the Subm is worth the premium? Rest of system is Psb Synchrony speakers, B&K 200.7 amp. Also will get new pre/pro, most likely an Integra 80.3- I realize this is a Subm forum, but you guys seem really knowledgable andI feel confident you won't steer me wrong.

TIA for any help!
post #7216 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by TL5 View Post

It's come down to either the Subm or the SVS pc13 ultra for me. I can only do one sub in my 25x15 room. Right now I have an Svs 20-30 pc+, I occasionally bottom it out. When all is said & done it will cost me about $825 more for the Subm. I know the pc is a fine sub, do you guys here think the Subm is worth the premium? Rest of system is Psb Synchrony speakers, B&K 200.7 amp. Also will get new pre/pro, most likely an Integra 80.3- I realize this is a Subm forum, but you guys seem really knowledgable andI feel confident you won't steer me wrong.
TIA for any help!

I upgraded to the SubM from the SVS PB-13 Ultra (same woofer, different enclosure) and the upgrade was definitely worth the premium. Even though i ordered two, the first thing i did was test just one to see how it compared to the SVS. The SVS is very good, but the SubMersive simply outperforms it in extension and bass definition. Well worth the upgrade premium.
post #7217 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by TL5 View Post

It's come down to either the Subm or the SVS pc13 ultra for me. I can only do one sub in my 25x15 room. Right now I have an Svs 20-30 pc+, I occasionally bottom it out. When all is said & done it will cost me about $825 more for the Subm. I know the pc is a fine sub, do you guys here think the Subm is worth the premium? Rest of system is Psb Synchrony speakers, B&K 200.7 amp. Also will get new pre/pro, most likely an Integra 80.3- I realize this is a Subm forum, but you guys seem really knowledgable andI feel confident you won't steer me wrong.
TIA for any help!

I upgraded form the SVS PC13 (2 of them) to the SubMersive (initially two of them as well). Quite frankly, it is not even close. The SubMersive is superior in every measurable and meaningfull way: impact, extension, cleanliness, response smoothness, bass tightness. This is one case where you get what you pay for. I had them both in the room at the same time and the differences were ridiculous. Please understand that I REALLY like the SVS but it is simply not in the same league as the SubMersive. I also had a Velodyne DD-!8 in the room at the same time as well. Again, not even close.

Go with the SubMersive. You will never look back.
post #7218 of 9384
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012/510#post_21712116

He went from 4 pb13u's to 4 subm's

Another buddy of mine went from 2 pb13u's to two passive 2011 captivators. I will concur that it was a leap in performance.

Great transparent post Mark. Slow and steady wins the race.
post #7219 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I upgraded form the SVS PC13 (2 of them) to the SubMersive (initially two of them as well). Quite frankly, it is not even close. The SubMersive is superior in every measurable and meaningfull way: impact, extension, cleanliness, response smoothness, bass tightness. This is one case where you get what you pay for. I had them both in the room at the same time and the differences were ridiculous. Please understand that I REALLY like the SVS but it is simply not in the same league as the SubMersive. I also had a Velodyne DD-!8 in the room at the same time as well. Again, not even close.
Go with the SubMersive. You will never look back.


It seems to me quite a few of you have either 2 or more Subm's... Will 1 do the trick in my 25x15 room that has 2 openings?
post #7220 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by TL5 View Post

It seems to me quite a few of you have either 2 or more Subm's... Will 1 do the trick in my 25x15 room that has 2 openings?

Depends on whether you want the "normal person's" view of bass or the opinion of those of us in the AVS bass addict club smile.gif

You may not get to reference with a single Subm in your room, but very few will find it's performance lacking. If you can only fit one, buy it and enjoy it.
post #7221 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Depends on whether you want the "normal person's" view of bass or the opinion of those of us in the AVS bass addict club smile.gif
You may not get to reference with a single Subm in your room, but very few will find it's performance lacking. If you can only fit one, buy it and enjoy it.

In most cases multiple subs is less about getting to reference than it is about being able to get smoother frequency response than is normally possible with just one.

I agree that you should start with one and you will be more than happy.
post #7222 of 9384
Just curious, the SubMersives are wired 120V but the internal amplifier is 2,400W which fully chews up a 20A circuit if a constant draw. The Seaton site doesn't make mention if the SubMersive HP or F2 needs to have a dedicated 20A circuit or if they can be plugged in and run in tandem with the rest of the Home Theater equipment on the same circuit.

Can anybody give me insight on what the normal current draw is on a SubMersive HP when watching a movie with the volume set to +/- 0dB? Do I need to have separate 20A circuits installed for each SubMersive being used?

While I'm asking, does anybody know what the Xmax is on the SubMersive drivers so I can figure theoretical dB SPL limits at 1m and thereby figure theoretical dB SPL at 4m? Fifty plus mm would be nice.

Thanks!

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/30/12 at 8:21pm
post #7223 of 9384
No you don't need 20A breakers per. Hopefully Mark will chime in. I know he's popped a few breakers testing setups but if I recall correctly there were multiple subs + catalysts on a single circuit. Two HP's on 20A circuit should be more than fine for real world use.
post #7224 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just curious, the SubMersives are wired 120V but the internal amplifier is 2,400W which fully chews up a 20A circuit if a constant draw. The Seaton site doesn't make mention if the SubMersive HP or F2 needs to have a dedicated 20A circuit or if they can be plugged in and run in tandem with the rest of the Home Theater equipment on the same circuit.
Can anybody give me insight on what the normal current draw is on a SubMersive HP when watching a movie with the volume set to +/- 0dB? Do I need to have separate 20A circuits installed for each SubMersive being used?
While I'm asking, does anybody know what the Xmax is on the SubMersive drivers so I can figure theoretical dB SPL limits at 1m and thereby figure theoretical dB SPL at 4m?
Thanks!
-

Yeah but you aren't pulling max watts at all times and amps have internal power supply for short term duration. Here are a couple threads I found in a 5 min. search. Every room is going to be different depending on transfer function at seat and how much output your situation will need.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/SubMersiveHP-New-orders-and-upgrades-too!-4786427?trail=40

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/Specs-of-Seaton-Sound-Amps-Peak-or-RMS-5902389
Edited by Luke Kamp - 10/30/12 at 8:33pm
post #7225 of 9384
Two submersive hp on one 20 amp is fine. At the recent GTG there was two on one 20 amp and mark had them beyond reference levels. These questions have been asked several times over on the seaton sound forums thats how i know about the two on one 20 amp.
post #7226 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by akbash View Post

Two submersive hp on one 20 amp is fine. At the recent GTG there was two on one 20 amp and mark had them beyond reference levels. These questions have been asked several times over on the seaton sound forums thats how i know about the two on one 20 amp.

Thanks! Did Mark make any mention of how much draw the Amp puts on a circuit during normal reference level playback? And did he make any mention of Xmax; piston excursion? The SubMersive HP is looking better and better but I don't have graphs and I don't know the peak-to-peak excursion so I can use this calculator to figure out theoretical, 16Hz SPL at a three or four meter main listening position.

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html
post #7227 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

No you don't need 20A breakers per. Hopefully Mark will chime in. I know he's popped a few breakers testing setups but if I recall correctly there were multiple subs + catalysts on a single circuit. Two HP's on 20A circuit should be more than fine for real world use.

I was at the last PA GTG. If I recall correctly we had 2 x HP's and 1 x F2 running at the same time. Two were on one 20A circuit and the third was on it's own 20A circuit. The subs were set +8 dB with respect to the Cat8 mains. Once we completed our initial evaluation we had a little fun with the subs, we hit 126 dB peaks at the first row of seating, which was about 20 feet from the subs. Most of us were wearing ear plugs. Needless to say we did NOT have to reset the circuit breakers.

I wouldn't worry about putting two SubMersives on a single 20A circuit - that's what I'm planning to do shortly.
post #7228 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks! Did Mark make any mention of how much draw the Amp puts on a circuit during normal reference level playback? And did he make any mention of Xmax; piston excursion? The SubMersive HP is looking better and better but I don't have graphs and I don't know the peak-to-peak excursion so I can use this calculator to figure out theoretical, 16Hz SPL at a three or four meter main listening position.
http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html

You might have missed my last post.

I don't think that equation takes into account room gain, which is boundary gain (walls and ceiling) and pressure vessel gain. Modal structure of the room giving peaks and dips at different frequencies is something else to consider as well. In other words what will that calcualtion give you once placed in your room, not much unless you know the other variables.

Also it is assuming using total driver xmax at given particular frequency from what I can see. I don't know xmax and don't think Mark has given it. Probably ~ 20-26mm each way is my guess.
Edited by Luke Kamp - 10/30/12 at 9:47pm
post #7229 of 9384
Quote:
Originally Posted by TL5 View Post

It's come down to either the Subm or the SVS pc13 ultra for me. I can only do one sub in my 25x15 room. Right now I have an Svs 20-30 pc+, I occasionally bottom it out. When all is said & done it will cost me about $825 more for the Subm. I know the pc is a fine sub, do you guys here think the Subm is worth the premium? Rest of system is Psb Synchrony speakers, B&K 200.7 amp. Also will get new pre/pro, most likely an Integra 80.3- I realize this is a Subm forum, but you guys seem really knowledgable andI feel confident you won't steer me wrong.
TIA for any help!

Only one because of financial restrictions or space restrictions? I'm guessing both. It's a tough one, especially in this thread. I'm guessing because it is such a good subwoofer, it is almost hard to go wrong with. At least that is my take on it. But...I'm guessing other threads would advise you to go with a ported sub, especially if just one sub is all you will go with. I, with fairly similar dimensions, chose the SubM HP with the hopes of adding more later. But I was a noob when I made the decision. I still am on schedule with my upgrade path and only have one currently. It seems to be very strong to me. But I do wonder what a ported Captivator would be like. In the end it doesn't really matter because I am still blown away for movies. It seems so much easier to judge on movies. Music is just all over the place with no industry reference standard. If I need more for music I just turn the Sub Channel up a bit. I need to get an ominmic and post some results. Then maybe some room treatments. I feel I made a very good decision, and every time I consider a different route, I come back to believing that I could not have made a better decision at the time I purchased. I honestly think that most people would tell you, yeah ported could be best for your room, but you can't go wrong with a SubM HP, and I concur. Sublime.

Here is a sketch I did of my room...

Edit...How does one go to a GTG and wear ear plugs confused.gif <- hope that comment doesn't ruin my points above...lol
post #7230 of 9384
I never used ear plugs i was just behind the main listening area Austin sat only a few feet away from the cat 8 the whole time no ear plugs he won the true bass head award for sure. The levels reached over 129db
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