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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 242

post #7231 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

In other words what will that calcualtion give you once placed in your room, not much unless you know the other variables.

For the most part it's a safe bet that most of us have sound meters and after wandering our rooms while the equipment is turned on and operating, know the acoustical qualities of our room and everybody knows that having an information base in which to base a decision, is better than shooting in the dark with nothing more than a wing and a prayer.

Quote:
Also it is assuming using total driver xmax at given particular frequency from what I can see. I don't know xmax and don't think Mark has given it. Probably ~ 20-26mm each way is my guess.

If Mark hasn't given it, then "probably" isn't a rational response regarding the use of the calculator as it's a fifteen inch sub and even Hsu subs, at 33mm have twenty-five percent more Xmax excursion then what you suggest the SubMersives have. FWIW, for my reasons, my concern is the SPL at the 16Hz - 25Hz range. I consider my question to be a legitimate question on both parts regarding how much current draw can be expected at the outlet while under heavy use and so I can figure out if the sub is a good fit for our room SPL wise, this calculator coupled with Xmax and my intimate knowledge of our living room helps give me the needed information to help me make the decision of; do I go with a better looking SubMersive HP (high WAF) or a better performing, yet larger and boxier looking (low WAF), Captivator 2400 with it's stated 30mm excursion. No matter which way I go, neither manufacture is going notice as this is not some veiled inquisition. smile.gif

(FWIW, I can find excursion data on Hsu and Captivator subs.)

Considering the SubMersive HP sub, in the color of my choice (high WAF) is close to $3k, it's reasonable for one to want to be sure of the sonic fit before spending the money and saying "I do." Xmax, plugged into the provided calculator will help create the missing puzzle piece (how loud for a given space) and knowing the current draw will help me understand if I'll need to add the addition of a dedicated circuit to the overall cost of this subwoofer. I can't buy a stated 2,400W amplifier based on someone telling me; "Don't worry" as they're not going be responsible for any troubles I run into down the road.

With all due respect,, if the manufacture states that it's a 2,400W sub, putting this sub on a 20A circuit (capable of "only" 2,400W) is an act of futility when coupled with a seven channel AVR, Blu-ray player, Comcast DVR and a pair of high current draw subwoofers, expecting to play, THX reference level sound; max current draw. It's reasonable to want to be able to add up total watt demands so as to know circuit current demand. It's not reasonable for one to generalize current draw and say don't worry, it's good enough.

Thanks for your thoughtful effort to answer my question. If anyone has any accurate insight to questions regarding current draw or actual Xmax figures, I'd love to read more.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/31/12 at 5:53am
post #7232 of 9372
ran dual subm hp's off a single 20a circuit, no issues... at spl levels high enough that when we had the earthquake awhile back, swmbo initially thought i was running sub tests...

luke, do a post history search on that poster... wink.gif
post #7233 of 9372
On the back of our Samsung Blu-ray player, Comcast provided DVR box and Marantz, SR-5007 AVR, are little tags that tell the user what the current draw of each unit is. On the back of our Klipsch, SW12-II's, is a little tag that tells the consumer what the current draw is. These tags are there for good reason. So one can total up the current draw to see if they're within circuit current draw specifications. Warnings about not exceeding circuit capabilities, are reasonable and rational and the type of behavior we teach our children.

Most houses which are twenty or thirty years old, use 15A circuits for living room and bedrooms; 1,800W limitation if connected to 120V. Older homes still, built in pre 60's,, if the electrical has not been upgraded, use 5A and 10A circuits. Many homes are on knob-n-tube as opposed to "Romex" style cable and still use fused circuits as opposed to resettable circuit breakers. Some houses still have aluminum wiring. All of this means something to me as it may not mean anything to others.

Knowing the total circuit draw is a rational question. Looking out for not overloading circuits is considered prudent as to home wiring safety concerns; not trying to burn the house down. Making trouble and giving someone grief where there is no trouble regarding a question which qualifies as well within normal social electrical user conventions and addresses safety standards, is neither rational nor qualifies as an answer.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/31/12 at 7:09am
post #7234 of 9372
Hold on... Let me get my popcorn!
post #7235 of 9372
^^^

lol... biggrin.gif

nah, that particular horse has been led to water many times... wink.gif
post #7236 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Hold on... Let me get my popcorn!

No need. Drama over. I made a phone call, received straight up answers from a very nice thoughtful person and there was no drama. The popcorn bar is now closed. smile.gif

We had an informative conversation about home circuit limitations; max/idle current draws, length of transient amplifier demands and what would be considered a reasonable current demand at constant high volume levels. We discussed current demands of one SubMersive HP and current demands of two and what his recommendations were. We also discussed Xmax vs subwoofer amplifier needs at lower frequencies.

I'm purposely not sharing information as in my opinion, due to the unnecessary sarcastic nature of the responses to my questions, they do not merit the voluntary insight of my efforts; I'm ticked. The point, why make drama where there is no drama when one, in the simple, can politely have a mature conversation and discuss questions in a civil and rational (adult) fashion?

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/31/12 at 9:17am
post #7237 of 9372
Well I am glad it all worked out. When in doubt contact the company, good idea. You notice I said "each way" , not peak to peak. I was actually trying to help and give an educated guess. I don't even own a seaton sound product, just a fan of them, the owner, and the knowledge he freely shares.

Thanks for the heads up on the history search, cleared things up. This forum has been revitalized for me since finding a true interest in the block member feature.smile.gif
post #7238 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm purposely not sharing information as in my opinion, due to the unnecessary sarcastic nature of the responses to my questions, they do not merit the voluntary insight of my efforts; I'm ticked. The point, why make drama where there is no drama when one, in the simple, can politely have a mature conversation and discuss questions in a civil and rational (adult) fashion?
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Oh gnoes!!! The secrets are still kept!!! You're gonna show us!!! rolleyes.gif

You make several posts eluding to a Steve1981 inspired conspiracy theory about how Mark doesn't just divulge all his design information and it was keeping you from being able to make an educated purchase. That's quite the tinfoil hat way to look at it! You received numerous helpful replies about current consumption of the 2400W HP amps and how they perform on a 20A breaker, but ignored those and went on a rant instead. BTW, I'll give you another bit of information to blow your mind. The power draw information on the back of any electrical gear is arbitrary. It's definitely not a maximum. If you want to know how much power a piece of gear will use under a given condition,
post #7239 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Well I am glad it all worked out. When in doubt contact the company, good idea. You notice I said "each way" , not peak to peak. I was actually trying to help and give an educated guess. I don't even own a seaton sound product, just a fan of them, the owner, and the knowledge he freely shares.

Thanks!

At these prices (not to be construed as a complaint or whine), I want to make sure what we're spending our money on and to make sure, unintentionally, I'm not creating additionally pricey wiring problems. If I don't need a dedicated circuit, I'm good. tongue.gif

And the answer to the question was, using one HP, ~800w during peak constant usage with transients not being sufficient to worry about.

Today I measured and balanced our current pair of subwoofers and made note of the 1m reading vs the reading one gets at the main listening position; a 3dB drop as opposed to an expected drop of 6dB. That's a good thing. The joke is on me. For us, this is not a hobby. My goal is to educate and upgrade an aged system and then fer-get-about-it.
post #7240 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

You make several posts eluding to a Steve1981 inspired conspiracy theory about how Mark doesn't just divulge all his design information and it was keeping you from being able to make an educated purchase.

---snip---

That's quite the tinfoil hat way to look at it! You received numerous helpful replies about current consumption of the 2400W HP amps and how they perform on a 20A breaker, but ignored those and went on a rant instead.

No I didn't. None of those posts were helpful. The phone call to Seaton was. There was no rant. Keep the drama. You're on ignore. The popcorn bar is closed.

(And FWIW, graphs do matter and do help in educated purchase decisions and it's reasonable for all who care to want to look at graphs but in this case, this is now a dead horse. Please stop beating on the poor, long dead horse.)

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/31/12 at 11:28am
post #7241 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No I didn't. None of those posts were helpful.
Of course they weren't. smile.gif You asked if you needed a separate 20A circuit per Submersive. You received at least 5 replies stating no. Most based on empirical high output testing with an additional anecdote about the testing. How foolish of people to attempt to answer your question in such an unhelpful manner. I'd recommend you notify a moderator and report their posts for being unhelpful and out of place for this thread.
Quote:
You're on ignore. The popcorn bar is closed.-
Awww... Now you've gone and hurt my feelings. rolleyes.gif
post #7242 of 9372
Not to jump on what seems like a dead horse but let me through in my 2ct. I have a SubMersive HP(2400), Bryston 4b-ST(1200 watt consumption) Bryston 5b-ST(864 watts consumption), a 1000 watt butt kicker amp(I don't know what that consumes) plus other gear. The outlets in my room are 15 amp only. Plus, I have other rooms on the same circuit as my HT room. I have yet to trip a breaker or have any problems at all with regards to my system. I know people get worried about getting 20A lines and even 30A lines that are dedicated. But let's not panic here. If I have not blown a fuse or tripped a breaker(a few people are surprised by that fact), I think other people are probably safe as well.
post #7243 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Not to jump on what seems like a dead horse but let me through in my 2ct. I have a SubMersive HP(2400), Bryston 4b-ST(1200 watt consumption) Bryston 5b-ST(864 watts consumption), a 1000 watt butt kicker amp(I don't know what that consumes) plus other gear. The outlets in my room are 15 amp only. Plus, I have other rooms on the same circuit as my HT room. I have yet to trip a breaker or have any problems at all with regards to my system. I know people get worried about getting 20A lines and even 30A lines that are dedicated. But let's not panic here. If I have not blown a fuse or tripped a breaker(a few people are surprised by that fact), I think other people are probably safe as well.

I was looking for exacting information and did my best to make this point clear. There's nothing wrong with asking for exacting information. There is something wrong with giving inexact information when asked for exact information. For me it became a dead horse issue once I gave Seaton a call. To me, with all due respect, for my purposes, fully respecting the thoughtfulness of the above reply, in my opinion, is an example which qualifies as a non-answer to an exacting question which, despite protests to the other-wise, makes it an unhelpful reply. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the thoughtfulness of your efforts.

And FWIW, my questions have been accurately answered by a call to Seaton. The questions have been answered. Thank-you.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/31/12 at 12:25pm
post #7244 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Not to jump on what seems like a dead horse but let me through in my 2ct. I have a SubMersive HP(2400), Bryston 4b-ST(1200 watt consumption) Bryston 5b-ST(864 watts consumption), a 1000 watt butt kicker amp(I don't know what that consumes) plus other gear. The outlets in my room are 15 amp only. Plus, I have other rooms on the same circuit as my HT room. I have yet to trip a breaker or have any problems at all with regards to my system. I know people get worried about getting 20A lines and even 30A lines that are dedicated. But let's not panic here. If I have not blown a fuse or tripped a breaker(a few people are surprised by that fact), I think other people are probably safe as well.

I hired a well trusted master electrician with 20+ years experience to wire my room and he told my that 15amp is fine but if I had concerns he would run a couple 20's for the equipment rack. I went ahead and had him run 20's since the cost difference was minimal, he did not seem concerned about 15 amp outlets at all, and I told him what would be in the room.

I would not worry about this at all.
post #7245 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I was looking for exacting information and did my best to make this point clear. There's nothing wrong with asking for exacting information. There is something wrong with giving inexact information when asked for exact information. For me it became a dead horse issue once I gave Seaton a call. To me, with all due respect, for my purposes, the above as an example, fully respecting the thoughtfulness of the reply, in my opinion, the above reply is still a non-answer.

It can't be everyone else all the time.
post #7246 of 9372
Remember that relative at the family gatherings or at work, the person that is very anal and wants just the details . . . and will search and search until someone verifies what they want . . . BeeMan458!
post #7247 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Only one because of financial restrictions or space restrictions? I'm guessing both. It's a tough one, especially in this thread. I'm guessing because it is such a good subwoofer, it is almost hard to go wrong with. At least that is my take on it. But...I'm guessing other threads would advise you to go with a ported sub, especially if just one sub is all you will go with. I, with fairly similar dimensions, chose the SubM HP with the hopes of adding more later. But I was a noob when I made the decision. I still am on schedule with my upgrade path and only have one currently. It seems to be very strong to me. But I do wonder what a ported Captivator would be like. In the end it doesn't really matter because I am still blown away for movies. It seems so much easier to judge on movies. Music is just all over the place with no industry reference standard. If I need more for music I just turn the Sub Channel up a bit. I need to get an ominmic and post some results. Then maybe some room treatments. I feel I made a very good decision, and every time I consider a different route, I come back to believing that I could not have made a better decision at the time I purchased. I honestly think that most people would tell you, yeah ported could be best for your room, but you can't go wrong with a SubM HP, and I concur. Sublime.
Here is a sketch I did of my room...
Edit...How does one go to a GTG and wear ear plugs confused.gif <- hope that comment doesn't ruin my points above...lol

Good info - thanks! I'ts primarily space considerations why I can only use one sub ( it's not a dedicated theater ) but financial considerations apply as well. One other question: for corner placement, which is the best way to place the Subm - with one driver facing the wall, or caddy corner ? Does it matter? Also, how far in each case should the drivers be from the wall (s)?

Thanks
post #7248 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Remember that relative at the family gatherings or at work, the person that is very anal and wants just the details . . . and will search and search until someone verifies what they want . . . BeeMan458!

You do realize your above is why Congress should outlaw Thanksgiving. I guess it's a safe bet to say that you won't miss me while on vacation over the next week?
post #7249 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You do realize your above is why Congress should outlaw Thanksgiving. I guess it's a safe bet to say that you won't miss me while on vacation over the next week?

Of course I'll miss you. It makes it all interessting and with you finally calling Mark to get your question answered was what youi should have done in the first place. Mark is very approachable and is happy to help anybody wheater you buy his products or not.
post #7250 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Of course I'll miss you. It makes it all interessting and with you finally calling Mark to get your question answered was what youi should have done in the first place. Mark is very approachable and is happy to help anybody wheater you buy his products or not.

Thanks!

Although my guess was wrong, not wanting to trouble Mark or any other tech departments with these types of questions, I reasonably figured you guys, if asked an exacting question, were up to the task of either providing an exacting answer or simply saying they didn't know. I was wrong. Oh well.

The response regarding the addition of a second SubMersive HP with the normal compliment of additional appliances attached to the same circuit, was, it wouldn't hurt to consider adding a dedicated circuit. Why? A 15A circuit, running two subs being driven hard, will draw 1,600W. Considering a 15A circuit is capable of providing 1,800W, when an AVR which is also being driven hard at ~350W along with 60" LCD television and Comcast provided DVR, will easily exceeding the 15A circuit limit. Now the internal wires start heating up and I don't wish to have to explain to family, friends or insurance company why I chose to overload a circuit when I knew better. The point, one may call me deserved names but I'm not going burn our house down because I didn't want to take the time to find out what's what with what.

We're going on vacation, I'm even making sure the batteries are charged and we have candy, trail mix, nuts, soup, water and toilet paper in case we get stuck on the side of the road for who knows how long. I hate foreseeable problems and not having enough toilet paper to see us through. I'm no fun at a party but I'm great to have around in an emergency. That's who I am; Mr Anal.
post #7251 of 9372
^^ You forgot the dead horse part.
post #7252 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

^^ You forgot the dead horse part.

Naw. When on vacation, I pretty much try to leave all dead horses at home. Leaves more room for toilet paper. tongue.gif
post #7253 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Naw. When on vacation, I pretty much try to leave all dead horses at home. Leaves more room for toilet paper. tongue.gif
So did you end up buying a Submersive??
post #7254 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks!
Although my guess was wrong, not wanting to trouble Mark or any other tech departments with these types of questions, I reasonably figured you guys, if asked an exacting question, were up to the task of either providing an exacting answer or simply saying they didn't know. I was wrong. Oh well.
The response regarding the addition of a second SubMersive HP with the normal compliment of additional appliances attached to the same circuit, was, it wouldn't hurt to consider adding a dedicated circuit. Why? A 15A circuit, running two subs being driven hard, will draw 1,600W. Considering a 15A circuit is capable of providing 1,800W, when an AVR which is also being driven hard at ~350W along with 60" LCD television and Comcast provided DVR, will easily exceeding the 15A circuit limit. Now the internal wires start heating up and I don't wish to have to explain to family, friends or insurance company why I chose to overload a circuit when I knew better. The point, one may call me deserved names but I'm not going burn our house down because I didn't want to take the time to find out what's what with what.
We're going on vacation, I'm even making sure the batteries are charged and we have candy, trail mix, nuts, soup, water and toilet paper in case we get stuck on the side of the road for who knows how long. I hate foreseeable problems and not having enough toilet paper to see us through. I'm no fun at a party but I'm great to have around in an emergency. That's who I am; Mr Anal.

Hey enjoy. See ya when you get back.
post #7255 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

So did you end up buying a Submersive??

Not yet, need to pay off the credit card, take care of dental and then the SubMersive becomes mine. smile.gif
post #7256 of 9372
Quote:
A 15A circuit, running two subs being driven hard, will draw 1,600W.

By coincidence I called Mark today about adding a second HP and what it would do to the power draw. The answer is, "it depends."

If a single HP is producing 110dB and drawing 800W, adding a second HP and maintaining that same 110dB will actually make the HPs more efficient and you will end up drawing a bit less than 800W. If you use the second HP to increase volume to 116dB then you will double the power draw to 1600W. This is assuming a perfect theoretical model.

In my case I have enough volume so I would not be looking to increase the dBs and could easily add a second HP (or more) to the same circuit as the first. Your case may be different but without more details one does not know. IOW you are not being anal enough! smile.gif
post #7257 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not yet, need to pay off the credit card, take care of dental and then the SubMersive becomes mine. smile.gif
Very nice!

The SubM or an S2 would be at the top of my list if I was looking for a ready built sub. Im sure you wont be disapointed!
post #7258 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A 15A circuit, running two subs being driven hard, will draw 1,600W. Considering a 15A circuit is capable of providing 1,800W, when an AVR which is also being driven hard at ~350W along with 60" LCD television and Comcast provided DVR, will easily exceeding the 15A circuit limit. Now the internal wires start heating up and I don't wish to have to explain to family, friends or insurance company why I chose to overload a circuit when I knew better. The point, one may call me deserved names but I'm not going burn our house down because I didn't want to take the time to find out what's what with what.
Someone should explain to BeeMan458 how a circuit breaker works. I'd do it, but I'm on ignore.
post #7259 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

IOW you are not being anal enough! smile.gif

Yes, you got me on the 6dB technicality which will reduce amplifier demand. Good catch. Of course you did remember to adjust your numbers for the distance from the subwoofer to the main listening position as opposed to standard readings taken at 1m. We have a 3dB drop between one meter readings and main listening position readings.

In the end, one only needs to be anal enough to prevent problems and not a farthing more.
post #7260 of 9372
Sorry my non answer was not helpful. But glad you got it all worked out smile.gif.
Edited by MIkeDuke - 11/1/12 at 6:42am
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