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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 250

post #7471 of 9374
Thanks Mike
Just called mark replacement amp will be sent. It was a 2 minute conversation.
That is as good as it gets from customer service.
Excellent !!!
Thanks Mark
Chris
post #7472 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Thanks Mike
Just called mark replacement amp will be sent. It was a 2 minute conversation.
That is as good as it gets from customer service.
Excellent !!!
Thanks Mark
Chris

out of curiosity, did mark indicate what may have happened? Is it a problem leaving my HP amp plugged in and turned on all the time?
Edited by Vincent Kompany - 11/30/12 at 11:48am
post #7473 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Kompany View Post

out of curiosity, did mark indicate what may have happened? Is it a problem leaving my HP amp plugged in and turned on all the time?

No, it happens once in a while that the amp just stops working. Had it happen to one of my submrsives. Mark took care of it A.S.A.P.
post #7474 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Kompany View Post

out of curiosity, did mark indicate what may have happened? Is it a problem leaving the HP amp plugged in and turned on all the time?
I have had one HP since 04/11 left on 24hrs a day (except for vacations) with no problems. I purchased this one in 08/12 and leave it on 24/7. This is the problem one.
when it blinks 4 times it is probably internal. I went ahead and unplugged and checked all connections before I called him so he said he would send
another amp out with a return label for the one I have. I would think most places would put me the through the process then have me send it in to see if it could be fixed.
Since he offered to send a new one I did not ask any questions and just said thank you. Sometimes problems happen. It is how a business handles problems that makes or breaks.
Excellent just excellent service
Chris
post #7475 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Thanks Mike
Just called mark replacement amp will be sent. It was a 2 minute conversation.
That is as good as it gets from customer service.
Excellent !!!
Thanks Mark
Chris
Your welcome. I have had the same experience when I was dealing with a different amp issue unique to me. Mark came up with a solution and sent me out a new amp as well. Customer service is some of the best I have ever had.
post #7476 of 9374
Thanks for the call Chris, always good to link up a name to a forum handle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Kompany View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Thanks Mike
Just called mark replacement amp will be sent. It was a 2 minute conversation.
That is as good as it gets from customer service.
Excellent !!!
Thanks Mark
Chris

out of curiosity, did mark indicate what may have happened? Is it a problem leaving my HP amp plugged in and turned on all the time?

Obviously there's no way to know exactly what happened until we get the amp returned. It is highly unlikely/unexpected that it is related to leaving the amp on all the time. The 4x red LED error is an indication of a fault mode which is occasionally some sort of internal component failure, but more often is related to something in the circuitry falling just outside the expected range. There is a fairly advanced, on board controller which monitors many internal behaviors of the amplifier circuitry, and it started life a little on the stingy side for real world variations (ie errors when nothing was wrong). Many early amps have had no issue, but normal variation had some needing to be sent in for updating or repair. In some cases turning the amp on and off a few times will eliminate the error state and you are back to listening. More often the solution is to repair/replace the amplifier.

To be clear, we have not seen any particular use or habit of use that has induced any such issues.

Enjoy,
post #7477 of 9374
Review of dual Seaton Submersive F2 Subwoofers
 
Introduction
 
The last 12-18 months have seen some significant upgrades to my home cinema. I have added Onkyo's flagship pre-pro, the PR-SC5509 and a full set of MK Sound/M&K speakers - the S150s for the front LCR trio and the tripole SS150s on surround duties, with a pair of LCR55s serving as the Height channel speakers. These are powered by Emotiva amplification and fed by an Oppo 93 Bluray player. For subs I have been using dual SVS-PC12 NSDs and in many ways I have been totally happy with these subs in my small room. I should add here that my dedicated room really IS small - only about 1,000 cubic feet, which will seem tiny to most US readers but isn't all that odd for UK readers who will be used to much smaller spaces than are common across the Atlantic. I should add that the room is extensively treated with GIK products and that I use Audyssey Pro for electronic room EQ and OmniMic for measurements and adjustments.
 
For some time, I have been impressed with the performance of the SVS PC12-NSDs, especially at their price point, but have always felt that I could get more down at the bottom end:  the PC12-NSDs perform very well down to 20Hz but below that have little of quality (or quantity) to offer. This is not a criticism of the subs, as their performance statistics are widely published by SVS and the subs perform well within those parameters. Nonetheless, I lusted for the single figure bass I was reading about on the various forums I frequent. 
 
After some research I discovered the Seaton Submersive thread at AVS and I was quickly hooked. I read the entire thread over a couple of weeks and was impressed by the universal acclaim given to these subs by many names who are high on my 'respected users' list. Indeed, I could not find a single negative comment and my warm feeling was reinforced by the continuous presence of Seaton Sound's founder and owner, Mark Seaton, who truly seemed to go more than the extra mile in helping his customers in any way he could. The more I read, the more I was coming to the conclusion that these were the subwoofers I wanted.
 
As I have said, my room is small, hence choosing the cylinder versions of the SVS subs: I have more room in the vertical plane than I have free floor real estate, and I pondered the sheer size of the footprint of the Submersives and how two of them could be accommodated. Here I should add that it was always going to be a pair of subs. I had learned long ago of the many benefits of dual subs and was not going to go back to a single sub, even one of the capability of the Submersive. The problem was how to accommodate two in this very small HT room. I then discovered that Mark makes a variant of the Submersive, called the F2 and this has the same twin 15 inch drivers and the same amplifier (more of which later) as the 'regular' Submersives, but in a 'one above the other' forward-facing configuration. This means that while the F2s are taller, they also occupy significantly less floor space - my ideal solution. I should add that Mark reassures us that the F2s are sonically identical to the regular Submersive and they differ solely in form factor. My dream was coming true!
 
Ordering
 
Ordering from Seaton Sound is not the same as ordering from any other Internet Direct manufacturer I have ever encountered. Mark's website has been 'under construction' for years (yes, years) and still has no substantial information on his products (which also include what looks like an exceptional range of speakers) and, even stranger, no means of ordering. Potential customers are directed to Mark's online Forum for product information and ordering is by email or telephone. Being in the UK, I opted for the former and I was surprised that I did not get an immediate reply and that I had to remind Mark by follow-up email a few days later that I wanted to buy two of the Submersive F2s - a sale worth thousands of dollars! Once Mark acknowledged my order, the process was smooth, with payment made by PayPal and a rapid response from Mark's colleague, Kelly. However, this is an area that Mark probably needs to address sooner rather than later, regardless of how busy he is (and he IS busy!) as I am not alone in having communication issues, initially at least. 
 
Amplification and finish
 
I should point out here that customers in Europe are currently at a slight disadvantage to those in the USA with regard to the amplifier Mark is using in the Submersives. Originally, the Submersives featured a 1,000 watt amp of high quality, made in the United States, but this was upgraded some time ago to an even more powerful 2,400 watt amp of the same quality and from the same US manufacturer. Unfortunately for those of us on 230-240 volt mains supplies the HP amp, as it is known, is only currently available in 110 volt form. However, a 230-240 volt version of the HP amp is promised and Mark has a good exchange/upgrade programme worked out. For me, this turned out to be a good thing, because Mark is offering the 1,000 watt amps returned by users upgrading to the new 2400 watt amps at a very good discount. So I opted for a 'pre-owned' pair of 1,000 watt amps and saved myself hundreds of dollars. I figure that if an amp works for its first week it will probably work for years, so in some ways a pre-owned amp is a better bet, especially for customers on another continent. Mark also assures his European and Australian customers that all pre-owned amps are thoroughly inspected and indeed upgraded to the latest version of the DSP too, giving a Pgm2 mode that boosts the very low frequencies by 3 or 4 decibels. The main difference is in headroom, but I was comforted by the fact that two Submersive F2s, with a total of 4 fifteen inch drivers and 2 kilowatts of amplification, would have more than enough headroom in a room of 1,000 cubic feet!
 
Finally, I should add that I chose the Black Maple veneer finish, which from a couple of feet away looks like Satin Black and is a perfect complement to my other speakers. It is also the cheapest of the veneered finishes Mark offers so that was a bonus for me. For those in non-dedicated rooms, or those who want to match the look of their speakers, Mark also offers a range of absolutely beautiful veneers too, for a commensurate increase in cost. 
 
Delivery
 
Once my order was acknowledged, the delivery process started and within a few days both of mu Submersive F2s were in the hands of Fedex and starting their long journey to my home in the UK. After only four days, they were awaiting Customs clearance at a UK airport some 100 miles from my address, and this is where some problems started for me. UK Customs refused to clear the pallet without my telling them my EORI number - a number apparently issued to import-export businesses but not available to individuals. It seemed that I could not have my F2s cleared without the mystical EORI number, but also that an EORI number could not be granted to me as an individual. I advised Fedex locally but without much of a result and I also advised Seaton Sound and both Mark and Kelly swung into action with Fedex in the USA and within a couple of days the F2s were cleared and arrived at my house 24 hours later. Both packages were on a single pallet and the Fedex driver and myself split the pallet into the two separate boxes and managed to get them into my front porch. From there I 'walked' the boxes into the HT and began the process of unboxing. This is surprisingly easy as Mark sticks a label on the end of the box saying 'open this end only'. When you do, the packaging is easily removed and the F2 revealed in all its glory. It is worth noting that the packaging is substantial, tough and highly protective and both of my F2s arrived in perfect condition. I then placed each sub on to furniture gliders which I had bought for a few dollars in advance, from Amazon and slid each sub into its approximate position. I managed all of this single-handed without problem, but if one had to actually lift the subs, it would definitely be a two-man operation - and two strong men at that. The subs stayed there for 24 hours to allow the electronics to come up to room temperature, avoiding any condensation problems (it is very cold in Britain at this time of the year).
 
Installation
 
I had already sold my SVS subs, so the new F2s were destined to occupy the same spots, both of which have been shown to work fairly well in my room, which has limited placement options anyway due to the small size of the room and the usual awkward placing of doors, windows etc. Within a few minutes I had connected power via the unusual but effective power connector/cable supplied (complete with UK mains plug) and also hooked up the sub cable using the supplied RCA-XLR adapter. I powered on and was pleased to hear .... absolutely nothing. No mains hum, no untoward noises at all. Switching on the rest of the system revealed the same silence from the subs and I was in business at last.
 
I have to admit here of having some trepidation in playing a disc through the system at this stage - there was a small niggle in the back of my mind that two of these gigantic, powerful subs in my small room would be too much. I quickly level matched the subs to the rest of the speakers with my SPL meter, switched Audyssey off (it was still calibrated for the previous system of course) and pressed play on War of the Worlds 'pod escape' scene.
 
OMG! All hell broke loose - furniture was shaking, windows rattling, things on a side table were moving around at random. I was horrified. This is definitely not what I wanted, although it has to be said that it was extraordinarily good fun :) I paused the disc and re-checked the SPL levels. Then I recalled how unreliable cheap SPL meters can be with bass signals and I turned down the gain on the F2s by quite a few clicks. I tried the test scene again. Wow!  This was more like it. Deep, really deep bass, but much more controlled. I was satisfied that, after proper calibration, these subs would work very well in my small room and my earlier fears were allayed.  There is no doubt that bassheads who actually enjoy shaking the foundations of their homes will be well catered for by dual Submersives, but I am looking for Reference quality bass, not an infrasonic weapon. 
 
Setup, measuring and tweaking
 
Next step was to run my usual 12 point Audyssey Pro calibration. This went smoothly, as usual, and after less than a couple of hours I had a calibrated system that now included two of the deadliest subs on the planet. I did a quick listening test and was highly impressed. Bass was deeper, more articulate than I have ever heard in my room. Any fears of two of these mighty subs being 'too much' for the room melted away. Indeed, at this stage it was the quality of the bass that impressed me even more than the sheer quantity. The bass came in, as required, with lightning speed, and just as quickly stopped when its work was done. Tight and fierce were words that came to mind. Bass lines from Jaco Pastorius and Stanley Clarke proved articulate, rhythmic and possessed superb clarity. Kick drum hit hard and fast, with the 'whack' of the initial transient on the skin being backed up by the deep power of the drum itself. Air was being moved. Moving back to movies, I was impressed that not only was the bass greatly improved, but the upper frequencies seemed to be improved also - a side-benefit I was not expecting. Underpinning all of the sound was a rock solid foundation that added depth and weight to the sonic experience. On movies, I was feeling the bass as much as hearing it, and hearing new lows which I had not experienced before, and all at comfortable near-reference levels too. This system would now go low AND loud.
 
My usual next step after running Audyssey is to get out the OmniMic and measure the in-room response using the V2 of the OmniMic test disc. My method is to play the monophonic sine sweep with Dolby PLII engaged, as this puts the sound though the centre channel and subs only, which is what I need in order to evaluate the phase relationship between the centre speaker (and by implication the L& R too) and the subs. To my surprise this showed a small but significant dip from about 45Hz to 95Hz - probably maxing out at about 5dB. I started to tweak the distances (delays) of the subs in the 5509 menu and as I did so I watched the OmniMic curve gradually flatten out. Further small adjustments were made to the relevant frequency range using the Curve Editor feature of Audyssey Pro. While I could not totally eliminate this dip (only moving the subs physically would probably achieve that and I cannot do that in my room) I did manage to flatten the curve appreciably. Further listening showed this to improve 'slam' a little and thus bring about a small, but worthwhile improvement in the sound quality. The graph shows the resulting 20Hz-200Hz curve in my room which I think you will agree is impressively flat. Who said it's impossible to get good bass in a small room?  Incidentally, it is worth mentioning at this stage that, for the first time, I am crossing over to the subs at 100Hz (as recommended by Mark), thus relieving the mains of some of their work and possibly contributing to the overall better subjective response I am hearing in the entire frequency range.
 

1000

1/24th smoothing, centre channel and subs, crossovers set at 100Hz for LCR and 110Hz for surrounds and heights.

 
There was one tweak left. I had picked this up in the Submersive thread on AVS and it had been recommended to me by AVS members whose opinions I trust. This was to engage the alternative DSP by selecting Pgm2 on the back of the subs. You do this by powering off the sub and then pressing the small button with a pen or similar. The 'out' position is Pgm2. Pgm2 brings a useful boost to the response below 40Hz and its effect can be seen on the attached graph. By running Audyssey with Pgm1 engaged and then engaging Pgm2 after running the calibration, the resulting curve is made much flatter, especially where it matters - below 20Hz. Further listening tests again showed a further improvement with considerable extra heft at the very lowest frequencies. I was now almost done. The final tweak was to conduct listening tests with Audyssey Dynamic EQ enabled and disabled. As many of you will know, Dynamic EQ applies an 'intelligent' boost to the bass and high frequencies (and the level of the surrounds) to compensate for the way human hearing becomes less efficient in those areas as volume is decreased. The concern was that this additional boost, at my usual listening level of about -7.5dB on the MV, in combination with Pgm2, would prove to be too much and would 'overcook' the bass at the very bottom end. After much evaluation, I decided to leave Dynamic EQ enabled but with a Reference Level Offset of 5. This means that at -5dB on the MV scale, Dynamic EQ is doing nothing at all, so it is applying a little of its magic at my typical MV setting of -7.5dB but not too much. Sonic nirvana.
 

1000

This graph shows the difference between Pgm1 and Pgm2. 1/24th smoothing. Note this graph is 15Hz to 200Hz.

 
I should say that the above account fails to give the impression that the evaluations and tweaks were conducted over a period of several days, with extensive listening tests, which is in fact how the were done.
 
Conclusion
 
I cannot imagine that it is possible to achieve better bass in my room. Every disc I play is revealing previously hidden or obscured sonic delights. Adding the Submersives has not only brought about the (expected) dramatic improvement to my bass, but significant improvements over the entire frequency spectrum. An additional, psychological benefit, is the knowledge that these will quite probably be the very last subs I buy, and that brings a kind of non-ugradeitis comfort that is difficult to explain. Will I upgrade to the 2,400 watt amps when a 230-240 volt version is available? I don't think I will. I hardly need additional headroom in this room - maybe if I ever move to a bigger room... but for now, my subwoofer journey is complete.
post #7478 of 9374
Nice review Keith!

Really had to laugh when you stated your concerns that the F2's might be too much for your room, then played WOTW! Guess you might as well start at the top smile.gif
post #7479 of 9374
Very nice review!
post #7480 of 9374
Very nice review Keith. Glad they met and maybe exceeded your expectations. Have fun re-watching all your movies again. Very nice looking charts also. So again, have fun.
post #7481 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Will I upgrade to the 2,400 watt amps when a 230-240 volt version is available? I don't think I will.

oh you'll upgrade alright. you know it, we know it and mark knows it!

(great review, btw smile.gif ).
post #7482 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Nice review Keith!

Really had to laugh when you stated your concerns that the F2's might be too much for your room, then played WOTW! Guess you might as well start at the top smile.gif

Hahaha - yes, I figured if the house was going to collapse, it might as well happen sooner rather than later... :)

post #7483 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

Very nice review!

Thank you. Very nice subs too! :)

post #7484 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Very nice review Keith. Glad they met and maybe exceeded your expectations. Have fun re-watching all your movies again. Very nice looking charts also. So again, have fun.

Cheers Mike - it was your experience in a similar sized room that finally got me to pull the trigger.

post #7485 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Kompany View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Will I upgrade to the 2,400 watt amps when a 230-240 volt version is available? I don't think I will.

oh you'll upgrade alright. you know it, we know it and mark knows it!

(great review, btw smile.gif ).

 

Thanks VK - I am saying nothing about those 2,400 watt amps. Nothing biggrin.gif

post #7486 of 9374
Enjoyed reading your review - good stuff.
post #7487 of 9374
Great review......'Twas a joy to read your impressions of your new F2's!

Upgraditis is, however, an incurable disease! Only temporary satiation is possible. Just wait until the F4 is released biggrin.gif
post #7488 of 9374
Great review. It may not make any difference but there is one other thing you can try to further improve the dip if you have nothing else to do. (or maybe you already did this).

When measuring, try changing the two sub distances separately and see if you can get further improvement. In my case it did virtually nothing but I think CraigJohn did get some improvement. I got huge improvement by changing them both the same amount but none trying to change them separately.

But based upon your graph, I would not expect any audible improvement. Flat is flat!!

By the way, why not change the OmniMic lower limit to 5hz and let us see what it looks like?

One more thing: I totally agree with your position of eliminating the "up-grade-itis bug" for sub woofers. And you have a great pre-pro. Just start saving your nickles for some LCR Cat8's and Sparks and you will have noting left to upgrade.

Congrats on your new subs. I've had mine for about 3 or 4 years and I still can't get the grin off my face!!
post #7489 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

Enjoyed reading your review - good stuff.

Thanks!  It's taken me a while to get around to it. Two reasons for that - one, I wanted to wait until I had a good number of listening hours under my belt and two, I haven't been able to drag myself out of the HT for long enough to do the write-up :)

post #7490 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Great review......'Twas a joy to read your impressions of your new F2's!

Upgraditis is, however, an incurable disease! Only temporary satiation is possible. Just wait until the F4 is released biggrin.gif

Thanks Brolic. I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist ...... :)

post #7491 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Just wait until the F4 is released biggrin.gif

Dual F4's in 1000cf room? OUCH !!!
post #7492 of 9374
Great review Keith! That FR is indeed "impressively flat" smile.gif Excellent job optimizing your new subs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Review of dual Seaton Submersive F2 Subwoofers
Conclusion
 
I cannot imagine that it is possible to achieve better bass in my room. Every disc I play is revealing previously hidden or obscured sonic delights. Adding the Submersives has not only brought about the (expected) dramatic improvement to my bass, but significant improvements over the entire frequency spectrum. An additional, psychological benefit, is the knowledge that these will quite probably be the very last subs I buy, and that brings a kind of non-ugradeitis comfort that is difficult to explain. Will I upgrade to the 2,400 watt amps when a 230-240 volt version is available? I don't think I will. I hardly need additional headroom in this room - maybe if I ever move to a bigger room... but for now, my subwoofer journey is complete.
I said the same thing when I had 2... that my upgradeitis was cured. Then one came up for sale close to me and with a matching finish... and I again fell ill with upgradeitis. After that, I said I was completely cured... and then the HP amps came out... and I fell ill AGAIN. Now, I think I really am cured... oh, wait... did somebody say TerraForm XL??? biggrin.gif

All kidding aside, congratulations on your new babies. I *know* you'll enjoy them. Also, it's great to have someone as helpful and well respected as you in the Submersive thread.

I've never had any problems communicating with Mark, but your experience is not isolated. I hope those issues get worked out because I think Mark is likely gonna sell a few more SubM's based on your excellent review! smile.gif

Craig
post #7493 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Great review Keith! That FR is indeed "impressively flat" smile.gif Excellent job optimizing your new subs!
 

 

 

Thanks Craig. I thought you'd like that phrase ;)  And thanks for the help along the way.

 

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Review of dual Seaton Submersive F2 Subwoofers
Conclusion
 
I cannot imagine that it is possible to achieve better bass in my room. Every disc I play is revealing previously hidden or obscured sonic delights. Adding the Submersives has not only brought about the (expected) dramatic improvement to my bass, but significant improvements over the entire frequency spectrum. An additional, psychological benefit, is the knowledge that these will quite probably be the very last subs I buy, and that brings a kind of non-ugradeitis comfort that is difficult to explain. Will I upgrade to the 2,400 watt amps when a 230-240 volt version is available? I don't think I will. I hardly need additional headroom in this room - maybe if I ever move to a bigger room... but for now, my subwoofer journey is complete.
I said the same thing when I had 2... that my upgradeitis was cured. Then one came up for sale close to me and with a matching finish... and I again fell ill with upgradeitis. After that, I said I was completely cured... and then the HP amps came out... and I fell ill AGAIN. Now, I think I really am cured... oh, wait... did somebody say TerraForm XL??? biggrin.gif

 

:)  Well, 3 really is out of the question for me unless I move house!  I’d have to consider the amp upgrade of course - but 1,000 watt amps in this small room .... would I feel the benefit of 2,400 watt amps?  It's about 4dB more - and really, I am about one notch from 0 on the F2s already.... I think headroom isn’t an issue. But hey, Mike Duke has a room the same size as mine and he upgraded and is happy, so who knows?  Vast bragging rights of course: "Oh yeah, just shy of 5 kilowatts of amplification... that's just the subs of course" LOL.

 

 

Quote:
All kidding aside, congratulations on your new babies. I *know* you'll enjoy them. Also, it's great to have someone as helpful and well respected as you in the Submersive thread.

I've never had any problems communicating with Mark, but your experience is not isolated. I hope those issues get worked out because I think Mark is likely gonna sell a few more SubM's based on your excellent review! smile.gif

 

I am loving them - and this thread really rocks. I read it cover to cover before I took the plunge and it was thanks to all the many contributors here that I made one of the best HT decisions I have ever made. 

 

I did wonder if I should have omitted that section of the review about the small communication issue I had initially. In the end I decided to put it in to show, if nothing else, that in the scheme of things it didn’t really matter and was soon overcome. Mark has been great in every other respect and he really stepped up to the plate when I was having the issues with UK Customs. I fully understand the problems that can come from a successful business growing quickly (I was in business myself for over 3 decades) and I am sure Mark will resolve any issues with that.

 

Thanks for the kind words, Craig - I appreciate them. 

post #7494 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Great review. It may not make any difference but there is one other thing you can try to further improve the dip if you have nothing else to do. (or maybe you already did this).

When measuring, try changing the two sub distances separately and see if you can get further improvement. In my case it did virtually nothing but I think CraigJohn did get some improvement. I got huge improvement by changing them both the same amount but none trying to change them separately.

But based upon your graph, I would not expect any audible improvement. Flat is flat!!

By the way, why not change the OmniMic lower limit to 5hz and let us see what it looks like?

One more thing: I totally agree with your position of eliminating the "up-grade-itis bug" for sub woofers. And you have a great pre-pro. Just start saving your nickles for some LCR Cat8's and Sparks and you will have noting left to upgrade.

Congrats on your new subs. I've had mine for about 3 or 4 years and I still can't get the grin off my face!!

 

Thanks. I know that 'grin on face' feeling... it just appears at various points through the movies, with no conscious effort at all. :)

 

I did a graph showing 10-200Hz - here it is. Not too bad is it? 1/24th smoothing.

 

 

1000

 

Next time I get the OmniMic out, I will try the sub distance setting method you describe. I'd love to consider Mark's speakers - but unfortunately I really can't accommodate them here - I have to leave some room in the HT for me!

post #7495 of 9374
Nice writeup Keith! Told you you'd be stuck in the HT rewatching things once you got these! biggrin.gif


Max
post #7496 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

... that I made one of the best HT decisions I have ever made.

You know, Keith, over the years, I have proclaimed a number of upgrades as the "the best HT decision I ever made." I've attributed that particular moniker to:
  • acoustic treatment upgrades
  • speaker upgrades
  • pre/pro upgrades
  • tactile transducer upgrades
  • several different subwoofer upgrades.
  • a 2.35:1 AT screen upgrade with the addition of an anamorphic lens
  • a theater seating upgrade with a riser

All those things were HUGE upgrades that significantly improved the viewing/listening experience in my system. However, if I had to point to just ONE as the "most significant", it would definitely be the Submersive HP's. I am an "audio-first" kinda guy. For me, the "huge" audio experience is far more important than the huge video experience. I could easily live with MikeDuke's high quality, but somewhat "smaller" video system.. given the perceptual "size" of his audio system. Getting the audio correct makes a much bigger difference than getting the visual experience correct, IME/IMO.

The Submersives are essential in this process because they lay down the base/bass on which the audio is built. They are akin to the video contrast ratio, and the really deep, dark blacks of a good video projector or flat panel. When you get the blacks right, all the colors have more pop and the entire image just looks better. Similarly, when you get the fundamental, deep bass correct, everything else comes into greater focus and just sounds better.

A large part of this is the well-damped response of the sealed SubM's. Acoustically treating the room as you've done, and using Audyssey to optimize the time domain response, both of these enhance the SubM's well-damped response. Combined, they produce incredibly articulate and well-defined bass with minimal overhang and/or ringing. When the bass is articulate and it doesn't overhang into the midrange and treble, the rest of the audio system is allowed to come through with more clarity and more articulation. I am not at all surprised that you would say:
Quote:
Every disc I play is revealing previously hidden or obscured sonic delights. Adding the Submersives has not only brought about the (expected) dramatic improvement to my bass, but significant improvements over the entire frequency spectrum.
I experienced the exact same thing. smile.gif

Craig
Edited by craig john - 12/3/12 at 6:51pm
post #7497 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks Brolic. I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist ...... smile.gif
post #7498 of 9374
Resistance is futile.
post #7499 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You know, Keith, over the years, I have proclaimed a number of upgrades as the "the best HT decision I ever made." I've attributed that particular moniker to:
  • acoustic treatment upgrades
  • speaker upgrades
  • pre/pro upgrades
  • tactile transducer upgrades
  • several different subwoofer upgrades.
  • a 2.35:1 AT screen upgrade with the addition of an anamorphic lens
  • a theater seating upgrade with a riser
All those things were HUGE upgrades that significantly improved the viewing/listening experience in my system. However, if I had to point to just ONE as the "most significant", it would definitely be the Submersive HP's. I am an "audio-first" kinda guy. For me, the "huge" audio experience is far more important than the huge video experience. I could easily live with MikeDuke's high quality, but somewhat "smaller" video system.. given the perceptual "size" of his audio system. Getting the audio correct makes a much bigger difference than getting the visual experience correct, IME/IMO.
The Submersives are essential in this process because they lay down the base/bass on which the audio is built. They are akin to the video contrast ratio, and the really deep, dark blacks of a good video projector or flat panel. When you get the blacks right, all the colors have more pop and the entire image just looks better. Similarly, when you get the fundamental, deep bass correct, everything else comes into greater focus and just sounds better.
A large part of this is the well-damped response of the sealed SubM's. Acoustically treating the room as you've done, and using Audyssey to optimize the time domain response, both of these enhance the SubM's well-damped response. Combined, they produce incredibly articulate and well-defined bass with minimal overhang and/or ringing. When the bass is articulate and it doesn't overhang into the midrange and treble, the rest of the audio system is allowed to come through with more clarity and more articulation. I am not at all surprised that you would say:
I experienced the exact same thing. smile.gif
Craig

I started to totally agree. But in my case, while the sub addition was huge in terms of great upgrades, switching to all Seaton speakers AND going to 7.1 from 5.1 at the same time was at a minimum, a very close second.
post #7500 of 9374
A secret look at Mark's next sub project: The F142:

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