Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 251

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

... that I made one of the best HT decisions I have ever made.

Every disc I play is revealing previously hidden or obscured sonic delights. Adding the Submersives has not only brought about the (expected) dramatic improvement to my bass, but significant improvements over the entire frequency spectrum.

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

Thanks Brolic. I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist, I will resist ......

Originally Posted by craig john 

You know, Keith, over the years, I have proclaimed a number of upgrades as the "the best HT decision I ever made." I've attributed that particular moniker to:

• acoustic treatment upgrades
• speaker upgrades
• pre/pro upgrades
• tactile transducer upgrades
• several different subwoofer upgrades.
• a 2.35:1 AT screen upgrade with the addition of an anamorphic lens
• a theater seating upgrade with a riser

All those things were HUGE upgrades that significantly improved the viewing/listening experience in my system. However, if I had to point to just ONE as the "most significant", it would definitely be the Submersive HP's. I am an "audio-first" kinda guy. For me, the "huge" audio experience is far more important than the huge video experience. I could easily live with MikeDuke's high quality, but somewhat "smaller" video system.. given the perceptual "size" of his audio system. Getting the audio correct makes a much bigger difference than getting the visual experience correct, IME/IMO.
The Submersives are essential in this process because they lay down the base/bass on which the audio is built. They are akin to the video contrast ratio, and the really deep, dark blacks of a good video projector or flat panel. When you get the blacks right, all the colors have more pop and the entire image just looks better. Similarly, when you get the fundamental, deep bass correct, everything else comes into greater focus and just sounds better.
A large part of this is the well-damped response of the sealed SubM's. Acoustically treating the room as you've done, and using Audyssey to optimize the time domain response, both of these enhance the SubM's well-damped response. Combined, they produce incredibly articulate and well-defined bass with minimal overhang and/or ringing. When the bass is articulate and it doesn't overhang into the midrange and treble, the rest of the audio system is allowed to come through with more clarity and more articulation. I am not at all surprised that you would say:
I experienced the exact same thing.
Craig

Originally Posted by djbluemax1 

Nice writeup Keith! Told you you'd be stuck in the HT rewatching things once you got these!


Max

Originally Posted by Theresa 

Wonderfully smooth! Can't get much better than that.

Originally Posted by audioguy 

A secret look at Mark's next sub project: The F142:

Originally Posted by audioguy 

A secret look at Mark's next sub project: The F142:

Originally Posted by ccotenj 

can i get on the pre-order list for that please?

Originally Posted by rx-8 

I have an existing HT system in the family room but I've almost completed a new dedicated 7.1 HT system in the basement. Within the next couple of weeks I hope to have everything delivered and installed. Here what I'm working with:

Integra 80.3
Oppo 103
LCR: Seaton 3 x Cat12's
LFE: Seaton 2 x F2's
Epson 6020 + Darbee
Speaker management: dbx 4800 (FOH), 2 x dbx 260 (surrounds), OmniMic V2
Surrounds: Seaton 4 x Cat8's (December delivery)
Seymour 120" wide AT 16:9 screen (December delivery - using a bed sheet for now)

Because I am still waiting for my screen I haven't even bothered trying 3D or the Darbee. As of today nothing has been done with respect to speaker management, Audyssey, EQ, or balancing the sound. That work will begin shortly but right now I'm just enjoying my 2.1 music and watching movies.

Without a single doubt I've been most impressed with the F2's. I just can not believe the sound content that I've been missing over the years with my existing system. People have raved about movies such as WOTW and only now can I fully understand why. There is no question in my mind that the F2's are the best single upgrade that I've made. Now don't get me wrong, the Cat12's sound AMAZING, but nothing else has rocked my socks (literally) more than the F2's have. Once the Cat8's and screen arrive it will obviously complete my movie experience.

If you are still on the fence wondering if you should get yourself a SubMersive (preferably two), do yourself a favour and get them NOW. IMHO you will not regret it.

Originally Posted by Gary J 

^^ Well it's Adult Swim again!

Are you saying you have not heard those subs with EQ or room correction? You haven't heard anything yet. Is it a dedicated, enclosed room? Any pictures?

Originally Posted by MIkeDuke 

That's a nice setup RX-8. Once it is all setup with your screen and your Cat 8's, you will have quite the setup and with that big screen to go with the big sound, You will be set. Are you putting the Cat 8's on stands? What size room do you have?

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 


Awesome kit lineup!

Until you run Audyssey and apply some EQ to the F2s, you ain't heard nuttin' yet!  In my eagerness to get started I did a 'quick and dirty' setup of my F2s and was impressed as he11. But... it was later, after running Audyssey Pro and then some subsequent measuring and tweaking with the OmniMic that I really made those F2s sing. They do take a little time to get right and they reward the effort, big time.

BTW, you didn’t mention room treatments above - is your room treated, or do you intend treating it?  Treatments are the best bang for the buck I have ever had in my HT - the improvement per dollar beats everything.

Originally Posted by rx-8 


I have done NOTHING yet to help the sound so things will get better shortly.

"The Ghetto Theatre" is in a totally unfinished (walls and ceilings) wide open basement. There is a solid poured foundation behind the FOH speakers and down the right hand side. Behind is a snooker table and to the left is wide open to the rest of the basement. The total basement size is 1,600 sq/ft or 12,000 cu/ft.

I've been retired since May 2011, but my wife is still working for the next 12 months. Once she retires we are planing to build a custom home somewhere in southern Ontario, or possibly in PEI. The problem is that I do not want to spend 50,000 to $60,000 on a good HT room, sell the house, and do it all over again. We decided to get the equipment now and enjoy it now. Once we move we'll build the HT and just move the equipment into it's new home. That's why I call it The Ghetto Theatre - good equipment but in a ghetto room. As for treatments - I'm not sure I'll be doing it now. I know the value of treatments and I will be doing it latter, but I'm not sure at this time if I'll be doing it now.

Sorry no pictures - but if anyone is interested in a demo please feel free to PM me to setup a time and date. I'm not very far from Canada's Wonderland. And to my American friends - if you are ever in the Toronto area please feel to drop by.

-- Bill --

Originally Posted by rx-8 


I've been retired since May 2011,
-- Bill --

Originally Posted by audioguy 

A secret look at Mark's next sub project: The F142:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

Thanks Theresa - coming from you, who knows much about these things, that is a great compliment.

(If I have misread you and you were actually talking not about my bass frequency graphs but about George Clooney, my apologies)

Originally Posted by BeeMan458 


Smart, good looking, charismatic....... I hate George Clooney.

Originally Posted by audioguy 

Retired? I got new tires as well!
I am past retirement age but my wife is not and won't be for quite some time. Our issue is not covering basic expenses but if she does not work, our health insurance premiums would put us in the poor house.
So by us both working, we can afford Seaton audio toys AND health insurance!!

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

Review of dual Seaton Submersive F2 Subwoofers
 
Setup, measuring and tweaking
 
Next step was to run my usual 12 point Audyssey Pro calibration. This went smoothly, as usual, and after less than a couple of hours I had a calibrated system that now included two of the deadliest subs on the planet. I did a quick listening test and was highly impressed. Bass was deeper, more articulate than I have ever heard in my room. Any fears of two of these mighty subs being 'too much' for the room melted away. Indeed, at this stage it was the quality of the bass that impressed me even more than the sheer quantity. The bass came in, as required, with lightning speed, and just as quickly stopped when its work was done. Tight and fierce were words that came to mind. Bass lines from Jaco Pastorius and Stanley Clarke proved articulate, rhythmic and possessed superb clarity. Kick drum hit hard and fast, with the 'whack' of the initial transient on the skin being backed up by the deep power of the drum itself. Air was being moved. Moving back to movies, I was impressed that not only was the bass greatly improved, but the upper frequencies seemed to be improved also - a side-benefit I was not expecting. Underpinning all of the sound was a rock solid foundation that added depth and weight to the sonic experience. On movies, I was feeling the bass as much as hearing it, and hearing new lows which I had not experienced before, and all at comfortable near-reference levels too. This system would now go low AND loud.
 
My usual next step after running Audyssey is to get out the OmniMic and measure the in-room response using the V2 of the OmniMic test disc. My method is to play the monophonic sine sweep with Dolby PLII engaged, as this puts the sound though the centre channel and subs only, which is what I need in order to evaluate the phase relationship between the centre speaker (and by implication the L& R too) and the subs. To my surprise this showed a small but significant dip from about 45Hz to 95Hz - probably maxing out at about 5dB. I started to tweak the distances (delays) of the subs in the 5509 menu and as I did so I watched the OmniMic curve gradually flatten out. Further small adjustments were made to the relevant frequency range using the Curve Editor feature of Audyssey Pro. While I could not totally eliminate this dip (only moving the subs physically would probably achieve that and I cannot do that in my room) I did manage to flatten the curve appreciably. Further listening showed this to improve 'slam' a little and thus bring about a small, but worthwhile improvement in the sound quality. The graph shows the resulting 20Hz-200Hz curve in my room which I think you will agree is impressively flat. Who said it's impossible to get good bass in a small room?  Incidentally, it is worth mentioning at this stage that, for the first time, I am crossing over to the subs at 100Hz (as recommended by Mark), thus relieving the mains of some of their work and possibly contributing to the overall better subjective response I am hearing in the entire frequency range.
 


1/24th smoothing, centre channel and subs, crossovers set at 100Hz for LCR and 110Hz for surrounds and heights.

 
There was one tweak left. I had picked this up in the Submersive thread on AVS and it had been recommended to me by AVS members whose opinions I trust. This was to engage the alternative DSP by selecting Pgm2 on the back of the subs. You do this by powering off the sub and then pressing the small button with a pen or similar. The 'out' position is Pgm2. Pgm2 brings a useful boost to the response below 40Hz and its effect can be seen on the attached graph. By running Audyssey with Pgm1 engaged and then engaging Pgm2 after running the calibration, the resulting curve is made much flatter, especially where it matters - below 20Hz. Further listening tests again showed a further improvement with considerable extra heft at the very lowest frequencies. I was now almost done. The final tweak was to conduct listening tests with Audyssey Dynamic EQ enabled and disabled. As many of you will know, Dynamic EQ applies an 'intelligent' boost to the bass and high frequencies (and the level of the surrounds) to compensate for the way human hearing becomes less efficient in those areas as volume is decreased. The concern was that this additional boost, at my usual listening level of about -7.5dB on the MV, in combination with Pgm2, would prove to be too much and would 'overcook' the bass at the very bottom end. After much evaluation, I decided to leave Dynamic EQ enabled but with a Reference Level Offset of 5. This means that at -5dB on the MV scale, Dynamic EQ is doing nothing at all, so it is applying a little of its magic at my typical MV setting of -7.5dB but not too much. Sonic nirvana.
 


This graph shows the difference between Pgm1 and Pgm2. 1/24th smoothing. Note this graph is 15Hz to 200Hz.

 
I should say that the above account fails to give the impression that the evaluations and tweaks were conducted over a period of several days, with extensive listening tests, which is in fact how the were done.
 
Conclusion
 
I cannot imagine that it is possible to achieve better bass in my room. Every disc I play is revealing previously hidden or obscured sonic delights. Adding the Submersives has not only brought about the (expected) dramatic improvement to my bass, but significant improvements over the entire frequency spectrum. An additional, psychological benefit, is the knowledge that these will quite probably be the very last subs I buy, and that brings a kind of non-ugradeitis comfort that is difficult to explain. Will I upgrade to the 2,400 watt amps when a 230-240 volt version is available? I don't think I will. I hardly need additional headroom in this room - maybe if I ever move to a bigger room... but for now, my subwoofer journey is complete.