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post #7801 of 9387
+1. MIc at ear level, or if that leaves it below the top of the chair, typically a bit above the chair top.
post #7802 of 9387
I've tried all of his stuff and Audyssey layout for mic postions does it the best. Does anybody think that Audyssey hasn't tried all the different ways with mic positions and their recommendation for mic postion is found to yeld the best results. You really can't fool Audyssey to get what you think are good results.
post #7803 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

You really can't fool Audyssey to get what you think are good results.

Must be like Mother Nature.

The first thing I would do if I were SOWK is invest $15 in a mic stand and NOT use a tripod. Secondly, I would follow that advice on the Auydssey Thread. However, Gary J's objections not-with-standing (NOTE: If you examine his room noted in his signature, he has no passive room treatment, so draw your own conclusions) you can focus more of your measurements around the MLP if you are the primary listener. In some cases (mine for example) the FR is virtually identical anywhere on the row of seats.

But, do EXACTLY what the Thread recommends and you will end up with great results.

PS. Is your room dark brown, black or dark gray? I love it with the splash of red. I am going to paint some of my white surfaces (portions of the ceiling, under the soffit) and do the same thing. Very classy.
Edited by audioguy - 2/11/13 at 1:47pm
post #7804 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

You should go to the Audyssey thread. A lot of that is wrong or unnecessary. Should not alter the room with fabric, never put the mic on chair, no need to turn things off unless there is an Excessive Noise message from Audyssey, no need to leave the room.


Nothing is "wrong" - except mic on chair... But that's more for wooden floors.

Turning off all background noise and leaving the room are great if you can do it.

And fabric on chairs is to kill off any unwanted reflections... This is not a bad thing. It's not like moving furniture around and is only killing unwanted reflections back into the mic.

To you, some steps my be unnecessary, but they can only help to get a more accurate end result. This is for the anal Audiophiles out there. Not saying everyone has to do the above, but I'm just super anal... Lol.

I would recommend to all to only put mic at ear level using laser levels, some speakers can Change the way they sound with only a few inches above or below the ear height.
Edited by SOWK - 2/11/13 at 1:55pm
post #7805 of 9387

Using the tripod stand on the seats is not very reliable.  Invest in a decent low profile boom mic stand and you can use it for Audyssey as well as with a mic and some software to optimize your sub locations and overall SQ.  Another thing you could do to eliminate the seat back issue is recline the seats since a lot of listeners will probably sit this way during a movie anyway.  I would definitely try to determine your personal preference (sitting up or lying down) and run Audyssey at that ear height.  Of course, if you split time 50/50 then just average the two.  I can't tell you how much it pains me to see this AWESOME setup and not have any idea how your room is affecting the SQ.  Based on the pics, you have an ideal setup for some acoustical room treatments (e.g. corner bass traps and first reflection panels at a minimum) so do yourself a favor and get some measuring gear.  You'll be glad you did it given how much you've already invested in your setup (in TIME and money).

post #7806 of 9387
Why would chair not be good for mic, if the chair is on a concrete floor? The test tones are only at 75db and that's not enough energy to make the room shake...

I would bet a glass of water would not ripple once during any of the test tones if placed on the chair...

But...

I will probably get the measuring gear and I all ready have bass traps / first refection panels / back of room diffusers .

I would say the only thing I need is to find the most optimal spot for the sub at the moment.
post #7807 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

However, Gary J's objections not-with-standing (NOTE: If you examine his room noted in his signature, he has no passive room treatment, so draw your own conclusions) you can focus more of your measurements around the MLP if you are the primary listener.

Off track for this thread but re: "objections", "room treatment" and "focus" measurements you got everything in this sentence wrong. eek.gif
post #7808 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Nothing is "wrong" - except mic on chair... But that's more for wooden floors.

Turning off all background noise and leaving the room are great if you can do it.

And fabric on chairs is to kill off any unwanted reflections... This is not a bad thing. It's not like moving furniture around and is only killing unwanted reflections back into the mic.

To you, some steps my be unnecessary, but they can only help to get a more accurate end result. This is for the anal Audiophiles out there. Not saying everyone has to do the above, but I'm just super anal... Lol.

I would recommend to all to only put mic at ear level using laser levels, some speakers can Change the way they sound with only a few inches above or below the ear height.

Seriously man, I would not even bother responding. Nice looking room smile.gif
post #7809 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Full calibration done!

Here is how I do mine...

Step 1:
Line back of leather chairs with a fabric to deaden reflections.


Step 2:
Turn off house furnace so there is as little background noise as possible.

Step 3:
Self leveling laser to match "perfect" ear height, per my main speaker (vandersteen's) recommendations


Step 4:
Turn projector to lowest fan noise level

Step 5:
Make sure mic is 6 inches away from back of chair / level / and with tip just touching the laser line.


Step 6:
Get to Audyssey screen that has the button measure on it / leave the room, and close door tight.

Step 7:
Use network wifi iPhone app to hit enter.


Step 8:
Audyssey runs with me outside of room / Wait 5 min / go back in room

Step 9:
Rinse and repeat last 4 steps for the next 7 position measurements.



Step 10:
Save

 

A few observations. Not a good idea to have the room in a different state for measuring as it is for listening (eg the fabric covers on the chairs). Bad idea to place the mic stand on the furniture. Very bad idea in fact. Can the surrounds/rear surrounds 'see' the mic?  If not, raise the mic above the seat backs. It is more important to have line of sight than to have the mic at ear height if you have to choose.  Mic should really be 12 inches from back of seat not 6. In step 8, what is this 'waiting 5 minutes' step for?

 

If you click the links in my sig, you can read my Audyssey FAQ and 101 for many more useful tips about Audyssey best practice, put together over many months/years from the combined experiences of contributors to the 60,000 post Audyssey thread here.

 

You have such a potentially wonderful room, it would be a shame to compromise it with less than great Audyssey techniques.

 

BTW, how is your room acoustically treated and what did you use to determine the type, amount and placement of the treatments?  Do you have REW or OmniMic etc?

post #7810 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Must be like Mother Nature.

The first thing I would do if I were SOWK is invest $15 in a mic stand and NOT use a tripod. Secondly, I would follow that advice on the Auydssey Thread. However, Gary J's objections not-with-standing (NOTE: If you examine his room noted in his signature, he has no passive room treatment, so draw your own conclusions) you can focus more of your measurements around the MLP if you are the primary listener. In some cases (mine for example) the FR is virtually identical anywhere on the row of seats.

But, do EXACTLY what the Thread recommends and you will end up with great results.

PS. Is your room dark brown, black or dark gray? I love it with the splash of red. I am going to paint some of my white surfaces (portions of the ceiling, under the soffit) and do the same thing. Very classy.

Room is flat black.
Edited by SOWK - 2/11/13 at 2:47pm
post #7811 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I've tried all of his stuff and Audyssey layout for mic postions does it the best. Does anybody think that Audyssey hasn't tried all the different ways with mic positions and their recommendation for mic postion is found to yeld the best results. You really can't fool Audyssey to get what you think are good results.

 

 

It's important to remember that Audyssey has to give a simple and clear set of instructions that will work for the majority of users, and that they are always conscious of trying to get the best result for a group of listeners. Many of us Audyssey fans in the Audyssey and Pro threads have found better results (based on measurements as well as listening) can be obtained with non-standard mic placement - especially where there is only one listener or where only one listener is 'critical'. In the latter case, a tight 'group' of measurements around the MLP can be beneficial, at the expense of the SQ in other seats.

post #7812 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

You should go to the Audyssey thread. A lot of that is wrong or unnecessary. Should not alter the room with fabric, never put the mic on chair, no need to turn things off unless there is an Excessive Noise message from Audyssey, no need to leave the room.


Nothing is "wrong" - except mic on chair... But that's more for wooden floors.
 

 

 

It's not a great idea to have the mic on the chair - it can be difficult to orientate it exactly vertically, and it is not the most stable platform for measuring. A boom mic stand for less than $30 is a much better tool than a tripod for this purpose. Pop across to the Audyssey thread - there are 60,000 posts of great info there, the most relevant of which are distilled into the FAQ and the 101, along with much advice garnered directly from Audyssey.

 

Quote:
Turning off all background noise and leaving the room are great if you can do it.

 

 

It's one way to do it and it does no harm - but it isn't necessary to leave the room and Audyssey tests for ambient noise and if the S/N ratio is poor it raises the level of the test chirps to get well above the noise floor. It does this three times and then craps out with a warning if it cannot get a proper S/N ratio for the test. Bottom line - if the measurements run, the calibration is good.

 

Quote:
And fabric on chairs is to kill off any unwanted reflections... This is not a bad thing. It's not like moving furniture around and is only killing unwanted reflections back into the mic.

 

 

It is not considered a good thing to have the room in one state for measuring and another for listening. If you measure with the absorbent material in place, you really should listen with it in place. Audyssey will have calibrated taking account of the absorbent material, but it won’t be there when you are listening. There's no need to do t that way - pull the mic 12 inches clear of the back of the chair instead and raise it above the back of the chair if it cannot 'see' the rear surrounds or surrounds.

 

Quote:
To you, some steps my be unnecessary, but they can only help to get a more accurate end result. This is for the anal Audiophiles out there. Not saying everyone has to do the above, but I'm just super anal... Lol.

 

 

They are not helping get a 'more accurate' result if the cal is made in circumstances not pertinent when listening though. Or if the mic is not stable enough during measuring. Believe me, you are far from Audyssey-anal (yet) :)

 

Quote:
I would recommend to all to only put mic at ear level using laser levels, some speakers can Change the way they sound with only a few inches above or below the ear height.

 

True. Although one would hope the off-axis performance of speakers used by most of those in this thread is rather better than that.

 

This is way OT for the SubM thread so I won't comment any more on Audyssey here - but you would be very welcome in the Audyssey thread!

post #7813 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Nothing is "wrong" - except mic on chair... But that's more for wooden floors.

Turning off all background noise and leaving the room are great if you can do it.

And fabric on chairs is to kill off any unwanted reflections... This is not a bad thing. It's not like moving furniture around and is only killing unwanted reflections back into the mic.

To you, some steps my be unnecessary, but they can only help to get a more accurate end result. This is for the anal Audiophiles out there. Not saying everyone has to do the above, but I'm just super anal... Lol.

I would recommend to all to only put mic at ear level using laser levels, some speakers can Change the way they sound with only a few inches above or below the ear height.

Seriously man, I would not even bother responding. Nice looking room smile.gif

 

What he is after though is a nice sounding room ;)

post #7814 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

BTW, how is your room acoustically treated and what did you use to determine the type, amount and placement of the treatments?  Do you have REW or OmniMic etc?


Room has treatments:

First and second reflection absorbers with space behind to act as bass traps.
Front of room behind speakers deadened with absorbers and corner bass traps.
Back of room has diffusers.

You will notice I do the measurement in reclined position. And it can "see" all rear channels with ease.

Regarding the fabric on the chairs...

Would it really be better with no fabric and have sronger reflections back into the mic?
post #7815 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Using the tripod stand on the seats is not very reliable.  Invest in a decent low profile boom mic stand and you can use it for Audyssey as well as with a mic and some software to optimize your sub locations and overall SQ.  Another thing you could do to eliminate the seat back issue is recline the seats since a lot of listeners will probably sit this way during a movie anyway.  I would definitely try to determine your personal preference (sitting up or lying down) and run Audyssey at that ear height.  Of course, if you split time 50/50 then just average the two.  I can't tell you how much it pains me to see this AWESOME setup and not have any idea how your room is affecting the SQ.  Based on the pics, you have an ideal setup for some acoustical room treatments (e.g. corner bass traps and first reflection panels at a minimum) so do yourself a favor and get some measuring gear.  You'll be glad you did it given how much you've already invested in your setup (in TIME and money).

 

+1

post #7816 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

BTW, how is your room acoustically treated and what did you use to determine the type, amount and placement of the treatments?  Do you have REW or OmniMic etc?


Room has treatments:

First and second reflection absorbers with space behind to act as bass traps.
Front of room behind speakers deadened with absorbers and corner bass traps.
Back of room has diffusers.

You will notice I do the measurement in reclined position. And it can "see" all rear channels with ease.

Regarding the fabric on the chairs...

Would it really be better with no fabric and have sronger reflections back into the mic?

Would you like to bring this to the Audyssey thread?  I am really conscious of how far OT we are getting. 

 

Briefly, think of the wavelengths of the frequencies likely to reflect off a leather chair...

post #7817 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

BTW, how is your room acoustically treated and what did you use to determine the type, amount and placement of the treatments?  Do you have REW or OmniMic etc?


Room has treatments:

First and second reflection absorbers with space behind to act as bass traps.
Front of room behind speakers deadened with absorbers and corner bass traps.
Back of room has diffusers.

You will notice I do the measurement in reclined position. And it can "see" all rear channels with ease.

Regarding the fabric on the chairs...

Would it really be better with no fabric and have sronger reflections back into the mic?

Sorry SOWK, I was responding on my iPhone and couldn't make out the room treatments. Kudos to you for getting treatments that blend so well. I would agree that finding the optimal sub locations is your primary concern but if you placed these treatments without any measurements (or professional advice) then your secondary concern will be to determine if your investment in treatments is doing what it should to improve your overall SQ.
post #7818 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What he is after though is a nice sounding room wink.gif

Yep and the only way to know that is to get some measuring equipment and software. Less than $100 should get you there.
post #7819 of 9387
I still say Audyssey kills the SubM....try running it on your old sub and then do a clean swap. I have an Omni-mic and the measurements don't show how or why Audyssey kills the SubMersive. The Omni-mic graphs look very similar when I Run Audyssey with the subM when compared to when I run Audyssey with my Ultra and then do a clean swap but the difference in bass are incomparable. Why????

If your SubM isn't blowing you away, It takes 15 minutes to do the swap test and I bet it will blow you away after a clean swap. This is how it works in my room. I know of at least one person in my power buy group that was less than impressed with the SubM and I'm pretty sure he was running Audyssey as well. It takes 15 minutes to see if it's Audyssey or not. I've got $20 it is.
post #7820 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I still say Audyssey kills the SubM....try running it on your old sub and then do a clean swap. I have an Omni-mic and the measurements don't show how or why Audyssey kills the SubMersive. The Omni-mic graphs look very similar when I Run Audyssey with the subM when compared to when I run Audyssey with my Ultra and then do a clean swap but the difference in bass are incomparable. Why????

If your SubM isn't blowing you away, It takes 15 minutes to do the swap test and I bet it will blow you away after a clean swap. This is how it works in my room. I know of at least one person in my power buy group that was less than impressed with the SubM and I'm pretty sure he was running Audyssey as well. It takes 15 minutes to see if it's Audyssey or not. I've got $20 it is.

Certainly that may be your results but I have had Audyssey on 4 or 5 different subs and it works great on all of them. And my SubMersives blow me away more than any of them. Weird that you are having that problem.
post #7821 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I still say Audyssey kills the SubM....try running it on your old sub and then do a clean swap. I have an Omni-mic and the measurements don't show how or why Audyssey kills the SubMersive. The Omni-mic graphs look very similar when I Run Audyssey with the subM when compared to when I run Audyssey with my Ultra and then do a clean swap but the difference in bass are incomparable. Why????

If your SubM isn't blowing you away, It takes 15 minutes to do the swap test and I bet it will blow you away after a clean swap. This is how it works in my room. I know of at least one person in my power buy group that was less than impressed with the SubM and I'm pretty sure he was running Audyssey as well. It takes 15 minutes to see if it's Audyssey or not. I've got $20 it is.

Just because the old sub sounded fine as a new sub in the same position will not always sound better. He needs to move the Submersive to a better place in the room.
post #7822 of 9387
then explain how the omni-mic graphs show a very similar response but the sound quality and slam is more than noticeable? It was a night and day difference in quality of sound that the graph differences didn't show. I'm not the only one to have had less than stellar results using Audyssey. Just an idea he could try if he's not that happy with how the SubM is sounding and from reading his first impressions, he doesn't sound all that thrilled. It has to do with more than just placement. I experienced the same thing when I hooked up my SubM and ran Audyssey. I'm just glad I did a clean swap out of my Ultra just to test the SubM because I was anxious to hear it. If I didn't do this step I think I might have sold the SubM thinking the Ultra ruled. I'm glad I didn't and I've yet to hear a good response from anyone explaining what's going on with this combo. Like I said, Audyssey worked well with my Polk sub and PC-13 Ultra but has an issue with the SubM (in my setup).

How does it hurt to give it a try? If his sub setup is having a hard time with Audyssey, like mine did, then maybe this might help....maybe it won't but he'll never know unless he tries it. Again how and why this works for me?????

I promise, this will be my last comment on this subject. I hope you figure it out SOWK, the SubMersive is an awesome sub.
post #7823 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

And yes, running Audyssey with the sub in Prgm 1 then switching to Prgm 2 after is a 'house curve' tweak that creates a slight boost in the under 40Hz region only.


Just saying Max (djbluemax1), one should use a room analyzing program before implementing <40Hz boosts as experience has shown me, when a boost is implemented, the room's acoustics pivot, like on a sonic axis, minus 3-6dB to the right of the boost. With a boost, it's not just the left end of the graph that's affected by the boost. In other words, it's not zero sum or if you will, there's no free lunch. Unequivocally, I cannot say my experience will be everybody's experience but without a room analyzing program, one won't see this pivot when it happens. The point, boosting the <40Hz content, and reducing the >40Hz content, will change how one perceives their room's acoustics. This phenomenon may be a room specific phenomenon so again, FYI, just saying.


-

I didn’t see that in my measurements when I took 'before' and 'after' measurements of the difference Pgm2 vs Pgm1 made. 

Can you please post your own measurements showing this 'pivot' phenomenon you describe?

Here is mine showing the effect of engaging Pgm2: (Edit - blue line is, obviously, Pgm 2, red line Pgm1)




I can’t find right now the graph showing the entire range up to 20KHz, but you will see from the one above that there is zero effect on the FR above about 45Hz and you can trust me that this zero effect continued all the way to 20KHz (as I would have expected).

I'd be interested to see your own graphs along with any explanation for the phenomenon you are describing. Thanks.
You're asking Beeman to show EVIDENCE? Hmmm...

Check out post #5794

Oh, and on another interesting note, the wiring in my house didn't catch fire and burn the house down either.


Max
post #7824 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What he is after though is a nice sounding room wink.gif

Yep and the only way to know that is to get some measuring equipment and software. Less than $100 should get you there.

 

Absolutely.

post #7825 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I still say Audyssey kills the SubM...

That isn’t what most people with Audyssey and SubMs are finding. If you bring this to the Audyssey thread, we can explore the issues with your setup further.

post #7826 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

Like I said, Audyssey worked well with my Polk sub and PC-13 Ultra but has an issue with the SubM (in my setup).
 

 

Audyssey doesn't 'know' you swapped subs. It just listens to the response in the room and creates filters based on the F3. Audyssey can't really 'have an issue' with one particular make of sub (unless that sub uses some complex form of user-controllable DSP like SMS and it has been set up wrongly to start with - but that doesn't apply to the SubM). If you bring this to the Audyssey thread it can be explored more thoroughly.

post #7827 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

 
You're asking Beeman to show EVIDENCE? Hmmm...

Check out post #5794

Oh, and on another interesting note, the wiring in my house didn't catch fire and burn the house down either.


Max

 

LOL. Darn!  I had forgotten - another user has a similar name and I think I may have been conflating the two.

post #7828 of 9387
I'm not going to give up yet...

What PC software and Mic do you guys recommend?

And is there a guide on how to use them properly.
post #7829 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I'm not going to give up yet...

What PC software and Mic do you guys recommend?

And is there a guide on how to use them properly.

 

Visit the new REW thread linked in my signature. From there you can also download what is turning into the definitive REW user guide (for USB mics and HDMI - the new 'simpler' REW).

post #7830 of 9387
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I'm not going to give up yet...

What PC software and Mic do you guys recommend?

And is there a guide on how to use them properly.

For ease of use, simplicity and immediate out of the box results, use either OmniMic or XTZ (I've used both). For a bit less money (if you have to buy an external USB soundcard and a USB mic it is very little difference in the cost), then use REW. The learning curve is higher (for most folks) but it has a lot of functionality.
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