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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 271

post #8101 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Anyone in the Pacific Northwet area is welcome to contact me for a demo of Seaton's spectacular subs. I have a single Submersive in the room at the moment but will have a pair of them running by end of next week (along with a pair of SVS SB-13 Ultras). You can find more details about the room in the signature. Also, for those that are in the Washington area, don't forget to join up in the Seattle Home Theater Geeks group over on Facebook! Maybe if we can get a bunch of people interested we can get Mark out here for a GTG! I'd be happy to host.


Asked to join Seattle Home Theater Geeks. Yes, a GTG would be something that I would be interested in and I have said before that I would be happy to demo my Quad Submersives.

Bill
post #8102 of 9372
Now my thump sound is happening even when I am changing channels. How do I check the master ground for the house or is that something I can even check?
I have my Denon grounded via copper wire to my Panamax and again, hum only happens when units are off, although now I hear some in my surrounds. This is getting frustrating as I did not have any of this with my av7005. How can one unit cause this ground loop hum and then now have a thumping sound upon turning on and changing channels?
post #8103 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnbum88 View Post

Now my thump sound is happening even when I am changing channels. How do I check the master ground for the house or is that something I can even check?
I have my Denon grounded via copper wire to my Panamax and again, hum only happens when units are off, although now I hear some in my surrounds. This is getting frustrating as I did not have any of this with my av7005. How can one unit cause this ground loop hum and then now have a thumping sound upon turning on and changing channels?

As I mentioned on our forum, the fact sounds are occurring even when changing channels confirms this is an upstream issue. I would update firmware on your Denon and check the ground for your cable/SAT system. Try methodically removing one connection at a time starting with the cable/SAT input and work back. Do NOT make multiple changes at once as you end up chasing your tail and won't narrow down the issue.
post #8104 of 9372
Got to be honest gentlemen. I have a tab open on the browser on my iPad in which lies the Seaton pics of all the Submersives. I look at least a few times an evening...8 months will be along wait...
post #8105 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Got to be honest gentlemen. I have a tab open on the browser on my iPad in which lies the Seaton pics of all the Submersives. I look at least a few times an evening...8 months will be along wait...

 

Much of the pleasure of anything is the anticipation of it...

 

But yeah, 8 months.... :)

post #8106 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Got to be honest gentlemen. I have a tab open on the browser on my iPad in which lies the Seaton pics of all the Submersives. I look at least a few times an evening...8 months will be along wait...

I know the feeling....because I did the exact same thing!!! Before I took the Submersive plunge, I had a tab on the "finishes" thread open persistently on both my iPad and my Kindle Fire!!
post #8107 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Got to be honest gentlemen. I have a tab open on the browser on my iPad in which lies the Seaton pics of all the Submersives. I look at least a few times an evening...8 months will be along wait...

I know the feeling....because I did the exact same thing!!! Before I took the Submersive plunge, I had a tab on the "finishes" thread open persistently on both my iPad and my Kindle Fire!!

 

I feel left out now :)  I read the thread and just ordered my pair of F2s!  All that anticipation missed!  

post #8108 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I feel left out now smile.gif  I read the thread and just ordered my pair of F2s!  All that anticipation missed!  

Surely the anticipation built as you read the thread? I read this thread straight through but, with my schedule, it took me a while to get through. As I read I kept this thread open, the Seaton "finishes" thread open, and the JL Fathom product page open as well (I was considering the Fathoms as well, at that time.) As you mentioned, there is indeed pleasure in the anticipation!! I'm glad I went with the Submersives...the F2 form-factor was, well, perfect!
post #8109 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I feel left out now smile.gif  I read the thread and just ordered my pair of F2s!  All that anticipation missed!  

Surely the anticipation built as you read the thread? I read this thread straight through but, with my schedule, it took me a while to get through. As I read I kept this thread open, the Seaton "finishes" thread open, and the JL Fathom product page open as well (I was considering the Fathoms as well, at that time.) As you mentioned, there is indeed pleasure in the anticipation!! I'm glad I went with the Submersives...the F2 form-factor was, well, perfect!

 

For some the anticipation is merely a prelude to the end result.  For others (like me), it's often times the best part of the experience!  Afterall, I joined this thread over a year ago, have constructed my false wall to perfectly fit two (slightly blemished if I can find them!) F2's at the 1/3 and 2/3 of my overall room width and run cable for dual connections when I currently only have a single sub.  Before I indulge myself though, I'll probably spend several hundred more hours adding room treatments and obsessing about other aspects of my theater! biggrin.gif  To top it all off, until I achieve some sort of minimum SQ standard (that apparently I have yet to establish!), I can't enjoy the fruits of my labor for fear that I'll be missing out on the "total experience" of any movie content I've purchased.  While my backlog doesn't amount to the likes of Mr. Barnes' collection, every day that goes by is just another day that I fall behind!

 

All kidding aside, this really is an obsessive hobby and I have the utmost respect for those that have achieved their own personal nirvana!

post #8110 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I feel left out now smile.gif  I read the thread and just ordered my pair of F2s!  All that anticipation missed!  

Surely the anticipation built as you read the thread? I read this thread straight through but, with my schedule, it took me a while to get through. As I read I kept this thread open, the Seaton "finishes" thread open, and the JL Fathom product page open as well (I was considering the Fathoms as well, at that time.) As you mentioned, there is indeed pleasure in the anticipation!! I'm glad I went with the Submersives...the F2 form-factor was, well, perfect!

 

+1 all round.

post #8111 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I feel left out now smile.gif  I read the thread and just ordered my pair of F2s!  All that anticipation missed!  

Surely the anticipation built as you read the thread? I read this thread straight through but, with my schedule, it took me a while to get through. As I read I kept this thread open, the Seaton "finishes" thread open, and the JL Fathom product page open as well (I was considering the Fathoms as well, at that time.) As you mentioned, there is indeed pleasure in the anticipation!! I'm glad I went with the Submersives...the F2 form-factor was, well, perfect!

 

For some the anticipation is merely a prelude to the end result.  For others (like me), it's often times the best part of the experience!  Afterall, I joined this thread over a year ago, have constructed my false wall to perfectly fit two (slightly blemished if I can find them!) F2's at the 1/3 and 2/3 of my overall room width and run cable for dual connections when I currently only have a single sub.  Before I indulge myself though, I'll probably spend several hundred more hours adding room treatments and obsessing about other aspects of my theater! biggrin.gif  To top it all off, until I achieve some sort of minimum SQ standard (that apparently I have yet to establish!), I can't enjoy the fruits of my labor for fear that I'll be missing out on the "total experience" of any movie content I've purchased.  While my backlog doesn't amount to the likes of Mr. Barnes' collection, every day that goes by is just another day that I fall behind!

 

All kidding aside, this really is an obsessive hobby and I have the utmost respect for those that have achieved their own personal nirvana!

 

+1 again. Know what you mean about falling behind with the movies. It is easy to do, as my 150+ movies on the 'not yet viewed' shelf testify. So little time, so much to obsess over :)

post #8112 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Much of the pleasure of anything is the anticipation of it...

But yeah, 8 months.... smile.gif

Yes and when I hook them up (will be upgraded Denon 4520) run Audyssey and then pop in the Pod scene from WOTW and experience an experience...smile.gif. But waiting will be a great opportunity to be patient as wedding planning surely comes first! smile.gif
post #8113 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

For some the anticipation is merely a prelude to the end result.  For others (like me), it's often times the best part of the experience!  Afterall, I joined this thread over a year ago, have constructed my false wall to perfectly fit two (slightly blemished if I can find them!) F2's at the 1/3 and 2/3 of my overall room width and run cable for dual connections when I currently only have a single sub.  Before I indulge myself though, I'll probably spend several hundred more hours adding room treatments and obsessing about other aspects of my theater! biggrin.gif   To top it all off, until I achieve some sort of minimum SQ standard (that apparently I have yet to establish!), I can't enjoy the fruits of my labor for fear that I'll be missing out on the "total experience" of any movie content I've purchased.  While my backlog doesn't amount to the likes of Mr. Barnes' collection, every day that goes by is just another day that I fall behind!

All kidding aside, this really is an obsessive hobby and I have the utmost respect for those that have achieved their own personal nirvana!

Yes I seem to be the type that always needs another wall to be climbed. And this hobby provides many...
post #8114 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Much of the pleasure of anything is the anticipation of it...

But yeah, 8 months.... smile.gif

Yes and when I hook them up (will be upgraded Denon 4520) run Audyssey and then pop in the Pod scene from WOTW and experience an experience...smile.gif. But waiting will be a great opportunity to be patient as wedding planning surely comes first! smile.gif

 

You are in for a truly life-changing experience.

 

And then there's the wedding.... biggrin.gif

post #8115 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Yes I seem to be the type that always needs another wall to be climbed. And this hobby provides many...

 

So you've got REW then....?  wink.gif

 

And you've started training your soon-to-be wife on the aesthetic merits of GIK 244s? LOL...

post #8116 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

So you've got REW then....?  wink.gif


And you've started training your soon-to-be wife on the aesthetic merits of GIK 244s? LOL...

Yes REW, UMM-6 is back ordered through July so it will be a bit. I will play around with the software though. And yes we have talked about GIK treatments. She is pretty laid back on whatever I want to do. I told her when we buy a house I just want an extra room bout 16x22 and were good to go. For now I am going to get 2 tri traps and 3 242 panels. Or least that's what Bryan from GIK RECOMMENDED for short term with my room pics. You think the same?
post #8117 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Surely the anticipation built as you read the thread? I read this thread straight through but, with my schedule, it took me a while to get through. As I read I kept this thread open, the Seaton "finishes" thread open, and the JL Fathom product page open as well (I was considering the Fathoms as well, at that time.) As you mentioned, there is indeed pleasure in the anticipation!! I'm glad I went with the Submersives...the F2 form-factor was, well, perfect!

Speaking of finishes, it would be interesting to see who has what finishes so as to get an idea of what is common and what is rare. (I assume black oak is the most common). I'll go first:

Vintage Cherry HP

smile.gif
post #8118 of 9372
HP Espresso (waiting for it - ordered 5/23).
post #8119 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

So you've got REW then....?  wink.gif


And you've started training your soon-to-be wife on the aesthetic merits of GIK 244s? LOL...

Yes REW, UMM-6 is back ordered through July so it will be a bit. I will play around with the software though. And yes we have talked about GIK treatments. She is pretty laid back on whatever I want to do. I told her when we buy a house I just want an extra room bout 16x22 and were good to go. For now I am going to get 2 tri traps and 3 242 panels. Or least that's what Bryan from GIK RECOMMENDED for short term with my room pics. You think the same?

 

Bryan's recommendation will be based on his experience so I'd start from there. But really, you need to measure the room with REW and identify the problems first - then add the treatments and measure as you go, assessing the improvement you have made (or not) and adjusting and re-measuring etc etc.  First port of call for most people is to use as many 244s or tri-traps as they can accommodate in the corners (remember the wall/floor and wall/ceiling junctions are also 'corners' acoustically) to try to tame the inevitable modes. It's unlikely you can add too many 'bass traps'. Once you have the bass under control (and Audyssey, especially XT32, can be a big help there too) as best you can, and your REW waterfalls look at least half decent, then you will probably want to learn to take ETC graphs and assess the reflections in the higher frequencies and make some attempt to get them under control. 

post #8120 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Mother View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Surely the anticipation built as you read the thread? I read this thread straight through but, with my schedule, it took me a while to get through. As I read I kept this thread open, the Seaton "finishes" thread open, and the JL Fathom product page open as well (I was considering the Fathoms as well, at that time.) As you mentioned, there is indeed pleasure in the anticipation!! I'm glad I went with the Submersives...the F2 form-factor was, well, perfect!

Speaking of finishes, it would be interesting to see who has what finishes so as to get an idea of what is common and what is rare. (I assume black oak is the most common). I'll go first:

Vintage Cherry HP

smile.gif

 

Black maple for my F2s. Cheapest option. In a dedicated room, they're never really seen as the lights are out 99% of the time I am in there. HST, the black maple is really nice anyway.

post #8121 of 9372
1 black maple

1 truck liner black? The original finish.
post #8122 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Yes REW, UMM-6 is back ordered through July so it will be a bit. I will play around with the software though. And yes we have talked about GIK treatments. She is pretty laid back on whatever I want to do. I told her when we buy a house I just want an extra room bout 16x22 and were good to go. For now I am going to get 2 tri traps and 3 242 panels. Or least that's what Bryan from GIK RECOMMENDED for short term with my room pics. You think the same?

Glad that you contacted Brian at GIK. With the package he put together for me, My room is FLAT with Audyssey.
post #8123 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Bryan's recommendation will be based on his experience so I'd start from there. But really, you need to measure the room with REW and identify the problems first - then add the treatments and measure as you go, assessing the improvement you have made (or not) and adjusting and re-measuring etc etc.  First port of call for most people is to use as many 244s or tri-traps as they can accommodate in the corners (remember the wall/floor and wall/ceiling junctions are also 'corners' acoustically) to try to tame the inevitable modes. It's unlikely you can add too many 'bass traps'. Once you have the bass under control (and Audyssey, especially XT32, can be a big help there too) as best you can, and your REW waterfalls look at least half decent, then you will probably want to learn to take ETC graphs and assess the reflections in the higher frequencies and make some attempt to get them under control. 

Yea. I'm gonna wait until the mic comes, measure and see what the room looks like on the graphs. From there add a couple treatments. It seemed he would have recommended the 244's instead of the 242's. but we have plenty of time.
post #8124 of 9372


Pulling in a little Sunday side work, gotta earn those dual F2's! Sooner...
post #8125 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post



Pulling in a little Sunday side work, gotta earn those dual F2's! Sooner...

Earn as in honey-do or earn as in cash?

Either way you will love them when you get them - well worth the wait.

-- Bill --
post #8126 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

Earn as in honey-do or earn as in cash?

Either way you will love them when you get them - well worth the wait.

-- Bill --

Haha! No, a friend of mine works construction and needed a hand to get the job done. Looks to be more too. But 7 day weeks can get old. smile.gif
post #8127 of 9372
Red cherry hp here. Awesome looking finish!
post #8128 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by llang269 View Post

Red cherry hp here. Awesome looking finish!
Pics, or it didn't happen! smile.gif

Craig
post #8129 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Pics, or it didn't happen! smile.gif

Craig

Click on his "My Gear" link and it is the first pic!

Travis
post #8130 of 9372
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john


Hi Mark,

If I may, I would like to elaborate here a little bit... (OK, well, maybe more than a "little bit!" )

First, the SMS-1 is a great device for helping to optimize subwoofer placement in the room prior to any EQ or calibration. To use it for this, just turn off the speakers and play only the sub. Disable all EQ in the SMS-1 and set everything else to baseline. Then place the mic at the primary LP and move the subwoofer around room while watching the FR on the OSD. Place the sub in the spot that measures the flattest without any EQ. This will make it much easier to EQ the system later, as you will need less cuts or boost to get a perfectly flat response.

Second, when setting levels, there are 4 different level settings that need to be accounted for:

1. Master Volume Control
2. Subwoofer and Speaker Trims
3. SMS-1 Level
4. Subwoofer Level
These will all interact and they all need to be taken into account prior to doing any calibrations or EQ. To set the levels, and then EQ the system with the SMS-1, I suggest the following progression:

1. Start by setting all trims in the receiver to 0. (We'll come back later and re-set these for calibration purposes, but for now, set them to 0.)

2. Set ALL speakers to Small AND all crossover frequencies to 80 Hz.

Reasons:

The SMS-1 expects the use of Bass Management, which is what you engage when you set the speakers to Small. Therefore, to get proper results from the SMS-1, you need to set the speakers to "Small" and engage BM.

The SMS-1 can *only* EQ the subwoofer channel. It can NOT EQ the speakers. This is very important to realize. Any filters set above the crossover point will have little effect on the subwoofer output and minimal effect on the overall response. Limiting the range of the subwoofer channel by using a low crossover point, limits the range available for the SMS-1 to EQ. IOW, if you set a 60 Hz crossover, the SMS-1's EQ will only be effective to 60 Hz. Therefore, set the crossover as high as possible without localization of the subwoofer, which is almost always 80 Hz.

Page 42 of your manual, (see below), describes the Bass Management scenarios for your receiver. You can either use a "global" crossover for all "Small" speakers and the sub, or your receiver allows for different crossover frequency settings for the subwoofer and the speakers. The subwoofer crossover is really just an LPF, whereas the global crossover is an LPF and an HPF at the same frequency. IMO, you should use the same frequency for the HPF on the speakers and the LPF on the sub. Therefore, I recommend you use the global crossover setting of 80 Hz, for all speakers and the subwoofer. Also, set the "Stereo" mode to "Speakers = Small". This will engage Bass Management for 2-channel sources and make your subwoofer active for 2-channel content. This is *very* important for optimal EQ with the SMS-1, as described below.

The Phase Control on the SMS-1 is centered at 80 Hz. While it is better to use the receiver's distance setting to effect the response around the crossover point, if you do want to use the SMS-1's Phase Control, it will only be effective with an 80 Hz crossover.


3. Next, on the SMS-1, select Preset: Setup and set all EQ bands to 0. (A default reset is the easiest way to do this. See Page 41 of the SMS-1 User Manual, linked below.)

4. Set the SMS-1 Level to +15.

Reason:

This is the setting for "Unity Gain" in the SMS-1. The SMS-1 is not an amplifier. You don't want to use the SMS-1 to add gain to the signal. You want it to add or reduce the gain of various frequencies *relative* to the average level, but you don't want it to increase the overall average level. "Unity Gain" means that there is no gain across the device, and the output signal is the same level as the input signal.)


5. Set the Subwoofer Gain Level at it's lowest setting. (We'll turn it up later.)

6. Turn on the left front speaker test tone. Adjust the receiver's MVC so the left front speaker reads 75 dB* at the primary LP. This MVC setting will be the "Reference Level" setting from this point forward.** Remember it.

7. Without changing the MVC setting, shut off the left front speaker and turn on the subwoofer test tone. Turn up the gain on the subwoofer until the SPL meter at the primary LP reads 75 dB. The SMS-1 should also read an "average" level of about 75 dB. (Once you've set this, you should never need to adjust the subwoofer's gain setting again, unless you move the sub.)

8. Now, go back and calibrate all of the speakers to 75 dB at the primary LP. Use the receiver's trim controls as described on Page 43 & 44 of the manual. Once you've done this, your system is fully calibrated for levels, and all of the settings are optimized in each device.

9. Proceed with manual EQ with the SMS-1. Put the receiver into "Stereo" mode. EQ the sub in isolation, (with the speakers off or disconnected), getting it as flat as possible up to the rolloff point of the speaker/subwoofer crossover you set in the receiver.

(Remember that in Step 2 above, we set the "Stereo" output to engage Bass Management. Even though the speakers are off here, the bass from the L/R channels will still be re-directed to the sub.)

(Remember also that any slider bands set above the crossover point will be wasted, so move them all over into the range below the crossover point.)


10. Once the subwoofer is EQ'd, turn the subwoofer test tone back on and reset the level to 75 dB. However, this time use the SMS-1's level control to adjust the volume to 75 dB. This will reset the SMS-1 for exact Unity Gain.

11. Finally, turn the speakers back on and evaluate the response around crossover point. Adjust the subwoofer distance setting in the receiver to optimize the response around the crossover point.

12. Re-check the full system calibration to ensure all speakers and the sub are at 75 dB.

Once you've done the entire process above, you'll have a fully calibrated system with optimized frequency response of the subwoofer. I suggest you try to live with that system for a few days or weeks. Some people are so used to a bloated or "hot" subwoofer level that they feel the bass is "missing" with a true "calibrated" and Eq'd level. Nonetheless, once they re-acclimate themselves to "flat" bass response, they begin to hear detail and articulation in the bass that was previously overwhelmed by bass bloat and boom.

Having said that, some people just don't "like" a flat FR of the subwoofer, and they prefer a rising LF response. There is nothing wrong with that, and everyone is allowed their own preference. If you're one of those people, you have a few options. The first option is to just raise the MVC. This will raise the overall system output, but you should also get closer to the bass response you are looking for. (This also assumes that the rest of your system is up to the task. If it's not, don't try to get bass response at the expense of your speakers! )

If that is still not enough, and you want to raise the subwoofer's output above the rest of the system, I suggest you initiate the Submersive's DSP Program 2. This adds a rise in the response below about 40 Hz, with 3 dB added at about 20 Hz. This should add the feel and kick you are looking for. You can view the effect of Program 2 by watching the response on the SMS-1. It should look like a rising response above about 40 Hz.

If that's *still* not enough, the third option is to raise the SMS-1's level. This will take you above "Unity Gain" on the SMS-1, but *judicious* use of the control should not be problematic. 3 to 6 dB of level increase should be taken in stride by the Submersive.

If the above suggestions don't get you were you want to be, then the only hope for you is another Submersive or 2 or 3.

Craig

Footnotes from #6 above:
*The Rotel uses -30 dBFS for it's test tones, so the test tones should read 75 dB on the SPL meter, ("Slow" setting and C-weighting.)

**The Rotel appears to be a "relative" MVC, (it goes from 0, (Off), to positive numbers), as opposed to an "absolute" MVC, which sets Reference Level at 0, and negative level settings indicate the dB below Reference Level.

Manuals:
http://velodyne.com/pdf/sms-1/sms-1_manual_english.pdf
http://www.rotel.com/content/manuals/rsp1570.pdf

Att: craig john

HI, its been awhile craig since we spoke or i posted here. But i just finished custom building my HT room and started setting up my sms-1 again in my new room with my HP.
I find my sub set-up is better without the sms-1 ? Any comments...
Edited by motogp34 - 6/15/13 at 7:37pm
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