or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Seaton Sound SubMersive1
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 275

post #8221 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So what exactly is this master/slave combo? An active Submersive teamed with a passive feeding off of the actives amp?

Short answer: A SubMersive HP loaded with an amplifier capable of 2x the current delivery, meaning it provides the option to drive a second, passive, slave SubMersive cabinet to equal levels. The slave cabinet can be purchased with the Plus model, or most any time in the future. One amplifier = one subwoofer signal for both. A more detailed answer is posted here.
post #8222 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi John,

The Plus amplifiers and slave versions use the same enclosure and drivers as the HP... as shown in the picture. I haven't yet updated the official availability thread, but just as has been the case with different versions, the veneer premiums are the same for any of the options and readily available. You can look to the Product Availability thread and simply add $100 to the price of the HP for the intro price of the HP+ variants. Availability will be the same as listed for the HP & F2. The veneer premiums are the same for the slave model added to the prices I posted for the black oak/maple base model. Don't hesitate to give us a call if you need any further clarification.

I think I now understand the price of the slave unit by itself, but what is the cost (after credit) of exchanging a "standard" HP amp with the new "master" amp? Thanks.

John
post #8223 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Mother View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi John,

The Plus amplifiers and slave versions use the same enclosure and drivers as the HP... as shown in the picture. I haven't yet updated the official availability thread, but just as has been the case with different versions, the veneer premiums are the same for any of the options and readily available. You can look to the Product Availability thread and simply add $100 to the price of the HP for the intro price of the HP+ variants. Availability will be the same as listed for the HP & F2. The veneer premiums are the same for the slave model added to the prices I posted for the black oak/maple base model. Don't hesitate to give us a call if you need any further clarification.

I think I now understand the price of the slave unit by itself, but what is the cost (after credit) of exchanging a "standard" HP amp with the new "master" amp? Thanks.

John

I'll be posting that info to my forum some time tomorrow.
Edited by Mark Seaton - 8/1/13 at 7:18pm
post #8224 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Short answer: A SubMersive HP loaded with an amplifier capable of 2x the current delivery, meaning it provides the option to drive a second, passive, slave SubMersive cabinet to equal levels. The slave cabinet can be purchased with the Plus model, or most any time in the future. One amplifier = one subwoofer signal for both. A more detailed answer is posted here.

I see. So probably the Speaker power 4kw amp ( same used in Triax, Cap S2 and Orbit Shifter) Will be in the plus model and then 4kw of power for quad 15's in 2 separate (HP or F2) enclosures. I am interested to see this price as I have been considering a Cap S2 or OS as my leading candidates. If it follows the submersive pricing traditions, no disrespect meant, but it tends to be a little higher than the value JTR offers. Good work! smile.gif

Just looked at the link with those prices and a master slave pair is surely enticing. Mark, what is a short guess in performance over a single Captivator S2? I mean obviously we could spread them out a bit for the better in room response. But as far as 4-15's over 2-18's?
Edited by jlpowell84 - 8/1/13 at 7:43pm
post #8225 of 9374
Hmmm... so the route to 4 Submersives becomes even more approachable...


Max
post #8226 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Hmmm... so the route to 4 Submersives becomes even more approachable...


Max

Yes! this is a bit exciting, assuming its the 4,000 watt Speaker Power amp. And makes it an interesting race for my future sub setup! I will be getting LCR JTR Noesis 212 speakers which will be a chunk of change. I wanted to go with dual Cap S2's or dual Orbit Shifters but that final bill is just too unrealistic for me. I was going to go with a single or possibly a DIY route. But this I like because I can now have two spaced enclosures for better response in room.
post #8227 of 9374
Do we have any submersive owners who have ran a 115 db sweep? Keith?
post #8228 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post


<Snip> assuming its the 4,000 watt Speaker Power amp. <Snip>.

I assume that you know (I know that this has been mentioned before) that those amps are customized to Mark's specifications?

post #8229 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by calentz View Post

I assume that you know (I know that this has been mentioned before) that those amps are customized to Mark's specifications?

You mean the DSP is customized by him? Or an amp from speakerpower with custom output?
post #8230 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Do we have any submersive owners who have ran a 115 db sweep? Keith?

 

I don't think I’d dare.... ;)

post #8231 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't think I’d dare.... wink.gif

Maybe cut it off down low? Wouldn't that be a "true" measurement? It seems like an 85db sweep doesn't actually show a subs true colors. What is the highest you have done or dare to?
post #8232 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't think I’d dare.... wink.gif

Maybe cut it off down low? Wouldn't that be a "true" measurement? It seems like an 85db sweep doesn't actually show a subs true colors. What is the highest you have done or dare to?

 

:)  I normally use 85dB for my REW measurements. I once did one at 90dB and it was a bit scary. I have read of people doing 100dB measurements but I honestly don't think I have the cojones for that!

 

It's not the absolute SPL that matters when doing measurements so much as sufficient signal to noise. In my quiet environment, 85dB is plenty for a good measurement.

post #8233 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't think I’d dare.... wink.gif

Maybe cut it off down low? Wouldn't that be a "true" measurement? It seems like an 85db sweep doesn't actually show a subs true colors. What is the highest you have done or dare to?

I quick looked for some in-room response images I had online. Ironically the first one I came across at higher levels was those from post #1 of this very thread. eek.gif

This was 2 original 1000W SubMersives in a good size room with 9-10' ceilings and a large opening on the left side to a kitchen & dining area:


It's important to note that useful playback level is always greater than the maximum SPL observed down low in a swept sine sweep. This is because the subwoofer content always consists of a range of frequencies, not just a single, constant frequency. Bass heavy scenes most often have a total SPL of 10-20dB greater than the individual frequency components over the 10-18Hz range. This reality of the complex subwoofers signals we enjoy listening to means that often a subwoofer won't have maximum amplifier power available to power the very lowest frequencies as it must also produce other frequencies up to ~80Hz at the same time.

This brings us to your question about the performance of the master/slave pair vs. other sealed subwoofers utilizing the same amplifier design. No question the subwoofers you mention are or will be serious performers, with expectation to have an advantage in maximum output over the SubMersive HP at higher costs. Once we go to the master/slave combo the pair of SubMersive cabinets have what I estimate to be about 50% greater internal volume. Combine this larger box volume with our drivers which are more efficient than most of the very stiff, highest excursion drivers.

I could always shoehorn 4, 15" SubMersive drivers in a box the same size as the F2, but with the same 1W divided between all 4 drivers vs divided between 2 drivers, you will get almost identical output in the 10-20Hz range. wink.gif

"Say what Mark? I thought more drivers = more bass?!?"

At the lowest frequencies in a sealed subwoofer, that's only the case when you also increase the available power or increase the box size. If we expect to get the maximum possible increase of 6dB from doubling the number of drivers when the box size remains the same that requires 4x the power, or if you double the box size you still need 2x the power.

Point being... With sealed subwoofers, driver displacement, amplifier power AND enclosure size matter. There are many cases where more power into a physically smaller sealed subwoofer can still result in less output below 20Hz than from a larger box.
post #8234 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I quick looked for some in-room response images I had online. Ironically the first one I came across at higher levels was those from post #1 of this very thread. eek.gif

This was 2 original 1000W SubMersives in a good size room with 9-10' ceilings and a large opening on the left side to a kitchen & dining area:


It's important to note that useful playback level is always greater than the maximum SPL observed down low in a swept sine sweep. This is because the subwoofer content always consists of a range of frequencies, not just a single, constant frequency. Bass heavy scenes most often have a total SPL of 10-20dB greater than the individual frequency components over the 10-18Hz range. This reality of the complex subwoofers signals we enjoy listening to means that often a subwoofer won't have maximum amplifier power available to power the very lowest frequencies as it must also produce other frequencies up to ~80Hz at the same time.

This brings us to your question about the performance of the master/slave pair vs. other sealed subwoofers utilizing the same amplifier design. No question the subwoofers you mention are or will be serious performers, with expectation to have an advantage in maximum output over the SubMersive HP at higher costs. Once we go to the master/slave combo the pair of SubMersive cabinets have what I estimate to be about 50% greater internal volume. Combine this larger box volume with our drivers which are more efficient than most of the very stiff, highest excursion drivers.

I could always shoehorn 4, 15" SubMersive drivers in a box the same size as the F2, but with the same 1W divided between all 4 drivers vs divided between 2 drivers, you will get almost identical output in the 10-20Hz range. wink.gif

"Say what Mark? I thought more drivers = more bass?!?"

At the lowest frequencies in a sealed subwoofer, that's only the case when you also increase the available power or increase the box size. If we expect to get the maximum possible increase of 6dB from doubling the number of drivers when the box size remains the same that requires 4x the power, or if you double the box size you still need 2x the power.

Point being... With sealed subwoofers, driver displacement, amplifier power AND enclosure size matter. There are many cases where more power into a physically smaller sealed subwoofer can still result in less output below 20Hz than from a larger box.

So with a master slave combo you are guessing it has about 50% more internal volume than a Cap S2? And with 4-15 inch drivers we will get about? So a little more than 4k over 3k for what advantages in spl? Obviously we get multiple locations witch is a definite advantage. Also what is the xmax on your drivers? Thanks for interacting Mark wink.gif
post #8235 of 9374
I have been looking at the speaker power website and noticed that the 220V models are available in 3200 and 6000W models not the 2400 and 4000 W models for 110V does this mean that the international models of the Submersive HP and + are using the higher power models?
post #8236 of 9374
The Speakerpower site may not be updated with the most current info. You may also be looking at the Rack Amps on their site and not the Plate Amps that come with the HP+/HPi+. The rack amps start of with model number SP2 and the plate amp start off with model SP1.

Mark did state on his forum that he's also selling HPi+ and F2i+ and it looks like he updated some pricing info as well.
post #8237 of 9374

It is also possible that even though Speaker Power is Mark's OEM, they may be something entirely different than what
is being offered on Speaker Power's web site.

post #8238 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthSA View Post

I have been looking at the speaker power website and noticed that the 220V models are available in 3200 and 6000W models not the 2400 and 4000 W models for 110V does this mean that the international models of the Submersive HP and + are using the higher power models?

Hi Garth,

The HPi+ and F2i+ do use the 6000W version of the amplifier. As used in the SubMersive, the additional headroom over the 4000W amplifier is not perceptible. This version does come at a premium cost as it utilizes a more complex and expensive power supply. At this point in time I will only be exporting the new Plus type amplifiers, but owners of the original 1000W SubMersives are not required to purchase an additional SubMersive cabinet. They amplifier can be upgrade alone which gives the HP performance, efficiency and provides the option to add a slave unit at any time in the future.
post #8239 of 9374
True, the amp you could purchase from them is not the amp Seaton Sound includes in subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calentz View Post

It is also possible that even though Speaker Power is Mark's OEM, they may be something entirely different than what

is being offered on Speaker Power's web site.
post #8240 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi Garth,

The HPi+ and F2i+ do use the 6000W version of the amplifier. As used in the SubMersive, the additional headroom over the 4000W amplifier is not perceptible. This version does come at a premium cost as it utilizes a more complex and expensive power supply. At this point in time I will only be exporting the new Plus type amplifiers, but owners of the original 1000W SubMersives are not required to purchase an additional SubMersive cabinet. They amplifier can be upgrade alone which gives the HP performance, efficiency and provides the option to add a slave unit at any time in the future.

So we are going to have plus models with 4kw and 6kw amps to partner with the slave unit. So 1kw or 1.5kw per driver then. When is the HPi+/F2i+ models available? Can you give a guestimation of max spl of a master/slave combo Mark? Can you provide the xmax on your drivers?
post #8241 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi Garth,

The HPi+ and F2i+ do use the 6000W version of the amplifier. As used in the SubMersive, the additional headroom over the 4000W amplifier is not perceptible. This version does come at a premium cost as it utilizes a more complex and expensive power supply. At this point in time I will only be exporting the new Plus type amplifiers, but owners of the original 1000W SubMersives are not required to purchase an additional SubMersive cabinet. They amplifier can be upgrade alone which gives the HP performance, efficiency and provides the option to add a slave unit at any time in the future.

So we are going to have plus models with 4kw and 6kw amps to partner with the slave unit. So 1kw or 1.5kw per driver then. When is the HPi+/F2i+ models available? Can you give a guestimation of max spl of a master/slave combo Mark? Can you provide the xmax on your drivers?

The "i" versions are for those using the amplifiers at >200VAC nominal power systems; primarily those overseas. It can be purchased and used in the US, but starts to loose some power when run on 110-120VAC while costing $200 more. If you want to keep pushing until you can push no more, overload, limiting and sound quality be-damned, you might want a 20A circuit per 4kW HP+ amplifier, but with the efficiency of the SubMersive cabinet the vast majority of users will never encounter any issues in having two HP+ amps on a dedicated 20A/120V line. If you have 2 separate circuits to the home theater and 2 HP+ amps, it might also make sense to split them between the two circuits, even with other smaller devices on the same circuit. That said, for many homes the costs to add a dedicated circuit can be similar to the price of shipping 1-2 SubMersives.

When comparing the theoretical displacement limited output at the lowest frequencies the 4 SubMersive drivers might give up 1.5-2.5dB vs. 3 high excursion 15s or 2 high excursion 18s... assuming there is plenty of amplifier available to utilize that excursion in the box used. Above ~40Hz where efficiency sets the limit, the dual cabinet, 4 driver SubMersive set has a notable advantage and will require will require less power to produce the same output at all frequencies, leaving more amplifier headroom to accommodate EQ and highly complex scenes.
post #8242 of 9374
Notable advantage over a single HP? Would it be equal compared to two HP's?
post #8243 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

Notable advantage over a single HP? Would it be equal compared to two HP's?
I believe he's talking about the difference between the dual cabinet, 4 driver combo of the HP+ setup vs 3 high excursion 15s or 2 high excursion 18" drivers (mentioned in the same paragraph) at frequencies over 40Hz. At the low end of the frequency scale, that number of the bigger drivers in other setups (with adequate power) might have a 1.5-2.5db advantage. The poster he was replying to is trying to decide between this route or even bigger subs.

The master/slave HP+ setup will be similar in output to 2 SubM HPs, as mentioned in the other thread (within 0.5db was what he said IIRC).


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 8/2/13 at 4:15pm
post #8244 of 9374
Got it...didn't read thoroughly
post #8245 of 9374
Can I run 2 pairs of f2+/ f2 slave all up on my front stage? Meaning for a total of 8 15" drivers up front? One pair left and right? This new setup opens more options for me since I'm in the market for subs right now. The other subs I have in mind are pair of JTR S2 or OS. But JTR seems backed up on orders. like 8-12 weeks time . I don't know if I can wait that long. Maybe longer since I live in Hawaii. Anyway I'm in the hunt for subs that can go low and have that chest hitting effect. My pair SC Reference which are only 3 months old does a pretty good job filling and shaking things up. But just don't have that hit you in your chest effect. And got no time for DIY.
post #8246 of 9374
Can you? Only if the wife/GF allows it wink.gif
post #8247 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post

Can I run 2 pairs of f2+/ f2 slave all up on my front stage? Meaning for a total of 8 15" drivers up front? One pair left and right? This new setup opens more options for me since I'm in the market for subs right now. The other subs I have in mind are pair of JTR S2 or OS. But JTR seems backed up on orders. like 8-12 weeks time . I don't know if I can wait that long. Maybe longer since I live in Hawaii. Anyway I'm in the hunt for subs that can go low and have that chest hitting effect. My pair SC Reference which are only 3 months old does a pretty good job filling and shaking things up. But just don't have that hit you in your chest effect. And got no time for DIY.

What island Rhed? My brother just moved back from Kona. I just visited Oahu for a week and Kona prior. Shipping must be a killer? At least Seaton's weigh less!
post #8248 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

What island Rhed? My brother just moved back from Kona. I just visited Oahu for a week and Kona prior. Shipping must be a killer? At least Seaton's weigh less!

Honolulu bro... Been here all my life. And I love it. But Kona is where it's at. Just been there a couple of months ago. Spent a whole week at the Hilton Waikaloa with the family. Yea.. I know shipping will be killer. But not much option for subs here on the island. How much you think shipping will be? If it will be over a grand that might change my mind. What ever subs I end up getting I'll let you know. And next time you visit here hit me up. We can make sample runs with movie clips and music with my setup..
Edited by rhed - 8/3/13 at 12:03am
post #8249 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Mother View Post

Can you? Only if the wife/GF allows it wink.gif

Yea brotha.. Had a long talk with the wifey.. Same line she always use.. " Ok hon.. This has to stop! This will be your last upgrade or addition or whatever you call it to your radio stuffs!" Lol!
Edited by rhed - 8/3/13 at 12:18am
post #8250 of 9374
One more thing can you stack the f2+/ f2 slave on top of each other sideways? Thanks...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Seaton Sound SubMersive1