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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 279

post #8341 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnbum88 View Post

I just am assuming that to HP's pointing directly at each other would cancel out something or not sound that good being 3-4 ft apart.

 

One would think so, but this picture here has four of them with multiple drivers facing each other.  It's from Seaton Sound's facebook page--if I remember corrently, Mark might have installed these.  I think they work in close proximity because of how long bass waves are.  

post #8342 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

One would think so, but this picture here has four of them with multiple drivers facing each other.  It's from Seaton Sound's facebook page--if I remember corrently, Mark might have installed these.  I think they work in close proximity because of how long bass waves are.  

Interesting. I remember seeing that picture, but did not recall the orientation of the subs.

I am sure I can make it work some how and have WAF and maybe over time actually get them positioned in better locations. First things first, need to save and buy the second one biggrin.gif
post #8343 of 9388
I have spent some time this evening reading a few different reviews. I am excited to see Kris's master/slave setup on the 17th. I really like the idea of 2 enclosures and I can't push 6k(dual JTR subs) with getting speakers as well. But I could push for a set of these. Time will tell, but I do like getting into the personal reviews where people are supremely satisfied! Yes any Seaton or JTR option will sound worlds better to an HSU vtf 15h. But I just wanna be sure as I will have this setup for sometime and surely don't make as much as somewhere swapping is an option. It's a one shot approach. Demo Season!
Edited by jlpowell84 - 8/5/13 at 10:10pm
post #8344 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Where's the contradiction?  I say this because he clearly requires some graphs and figures or he won't be happy. He is not going to get these figures for the SubMs, so it seems to me he will be happier with the JTRs. No contradiction stated or implied.

Personally, I wouldn't trade my SubMs for any other subwoofer I know of currently - but I am not bothered about the lack of graphs and figures that are so important to the OP.

Well you did, with your post prior to the one I quoted you on. You recommended and gave high acclaim to the submersive, then 3 minutes later a post comes along recommending the JTR's.

Anyway, moving on

 

That's right. Personally I wouldn't choose any other sub but a Submersive. I think they are the best. I was recommending the JTRs specifically to jlpowell84 - they will be better for him because they have the graphs he requires. Jeez.... 

post #8345 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That's right. Personally I wouldn't choose any other sub but a Submersive. I think they are the best. I was recommending the JTRs specifically to jlpowell84 - they will be better for him because they have the graphs he requires. Jeez.... 

Yeah I agree with you on that one. I think you are interpreting Powell a quite narrowly, he was just asking for graphs as a point of comparison. To some these maybe important as they are statistical evidence of how a sub performs as opposed to someone's opinion.

I was this skeptical as well before purchasing my submersive. But that didn't stop me from buying one in the end after I had done enough research. And that doesnt mean the same cant apply to Powell just because hes asking for some graphs. I'm sure graphs arent going to be the ultimate determinant for what sub he ends up getting.
Edited by Ashi777 - 8/6/13 at 2:38am
post #8346 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnbum88 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

One would think so, but this picture here has four of them with multiple drivers facing each other.  It's from Seaton Sound's facebook page--if I remember corrently, Mark might have installed these.  I think they work in close proximity because of how long bass waves are.  

Interesting. I remember seeing that picture, but did not recall the orientation of the subs.

I am sure I can make it work some how and have WAF and maybe over time actually get them positioned in better locations. First things first, need to save and buy the second one biggrin.gif

I just responded here on AVS to another very similar question. The SubMersive HP can be thought of as a single source subwoofer with the driver in the center of the box (average of the two woofers). To consolidate the info here:

To confirm, you only need to maintain 3" of clear space in front of the grill or driver face. If two SubMersives are placed next to each other as is most common with the amplifier facing the wall, they can be placed with 5-6" of spacing between them, similar to as seen in this picture from behind Art Sonneborn's screen. These are spaced more than 6" apart as we had plenty of width behind his 14' wide screen cool.gif :

post #8347 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That's right. Personally I wouldn't choose any other sub but a Submersive. I think they are the best. I was recommending the JTRs specifically to jlpowell84 - they will be better for him because they have the graphs he requires. Jeez.... 

Morning or evening Keith! Evening I think. Have a good one!

Experience could change things. I just got hot on a graph and became stubborn to some defensive Seaton comments when I don't really know a lot of this stuff. I didn't realize no numbers or any type, shape or form of graph had ever been done besides a general 85db sweep. Anyway good day to you!
post #8348 of 9388
I hope to have my new Submersive HP this week
post #8349 of 9388
Congrats and welcome to the club!
post #8350 of 9388
I thought I would share some of my initial impressions of the HP+. I just copied and pasted from my thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

A few years back the wife and I set this goal to eliminate all of our debt. We accomplished that goal almost 2 years ago. The only thing left was our home mortgage which was already a very good rate. Long Story short, after a few months of trying, we were recently able to re-finance our home and eliminate a couple years off the life of the mortgage so we can pay off our home much sooner.

With all this responsible stuff out of the way, I figured it was time to get a lil crazy/fun. I started looking at the next upgrade to our little HT and decided to give Mark Seaton a call. I wanted to keep that same sound quality of the SubMersive but also wanted to smooth out the response even more from seat to seat and elevate the performance to the next level. Mark told me that I may be a good candidate for something he has been working on called the SubMersive HP+. One thing led to another and the next thing I know I have a second SubMersive sitting in my small room. You can find more info about the SubMersive HP+ here. Basically its 2 SubMersives being powered by single 4000watt plate amp.

I don’t know what can be said about duals subs in my room than has not already been said by others who has gone down this path but it does do exactly what others have said:
  • It smooths out the response from seat to seat (my wife’s seat was the worst bass seat prior to this upgrade, now she has the best bass seat in the house)
  • With decent placement it does help eliminate localization vs just one sub


One thing I did not expect was the bump in performance below 40hz when running duals. I don’t know how else to explain this but in my room, running dual SubMersives in PGM1 (19hz mode), sounds like PGM1 but feels and measures like PGM2 (15hz mode).

I only have two placement options for running duals:
  • Option 1: Place Subs under Left and Right speakers as you see in the pic (this is not ideal for most room) and if you have the space to experiment with placement, you should.
  • Option 2: Place one Sub under the Left Front speaker and one Sub at Right Midwall.


My room is only 1150 cubic feet but it’s not sealed. The left side of the room is open to the rest of the house. The right side of the room has a wall that is sheetrock over concrete. I chose option 1 because the closer I place a sub next to that side wall, the more room gain I get and I did not want things to sound lop sided or have any localization issues since these subs are essentially gain matched – plus I think it looks bad azz like this.

I am still tweaking:
Slightly moving our seats, slightly moving the subs, re-positioning some bass traps to help eliminate some issues with the room, trying different levels, different crossover settings, adjusting Sub distances settings in the AVR in PLX Movie mode and etc. Mark Seaton has previously advised about making changes to sub distance and how it can be beneficial. Craig John outlines how well it works here. In my room, it actually helped tame some extra energy I was getting in the 80-95hz area which caused some unwanted room resonance/growl. I still have some more tweaking to do as I have a small dip from 50hz to 65hz by about 4dbs but the wife and I both are Loving this upgrade and would Highly recommend it for anyone that is thinking about it.

post #8351 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Morning or evening Keith! Evening I think. Have a good one!

Experience could change things. I just got hot on a graph and became stubborn to some defensive Seaton comments when I don't really know a lot of this stuff. I didn't realize no numbers or any type, shape or form of graph had ever been done besides a general 85db sweep. Anyway good day to you!

There are plenty of numbers and graphs above 85db, but what exactly are you looking for? You have posted a couple times asking for -3db and max spl numbers, but you need to be more specific. Outdoor or in room measurements? CEA numbers, compression sweeps, THD limited sine waves, program material, etc? Owner generated or from Mark?

But here are just a few I found that are not just 85db sweeps:

Outdoor FR graph from Mark's forum that was previously posted here is higher than 85db.



Here are some progressive in room sweeps of dual submersives much higher than 85db that was in response to one of your posts.



Here is a ~95db in room sweep I have posted before of my submersive HP. It started to compress below 10hz so I did not go higher. If I started at 10hz instead, I could have gone much higher.



In room sweep of my HP and F2. Again not max levels, just where I chose to stop testing.



In room 10hz sine wave of my HP.



In room 20hz sine wave of my HP. I think something was off for my sine wave tests since 10hz was at a higher level with less distortion, but I didn't investigate and haven't revisited yet.



In room sweep of dual HPs posted here.



In room sweep of Submersive HP pair posted here.



I'm sure there have been more graphs posted and plenty of people have posted hitting 110db+ on SPL meters during music or movie playback.

If you are looking for a specific in room measurement, let me know. I'm hoping to take a full day soon and do quite a few measurements of my HP and F2 including some SpecLab mic captures of well known demo worthy clips.

I think the lack of groundplane measurements has been beaten to death, at least for now, in this thread and many others. Hopefully Mark gets something to Ricci so this can be put to rest. And possibly have an intelligent and constructive discussion of the results and not just: "OMG it did 1db more/less than sub X at 20hz". If it doesn't happen in the next couple months, I might be willing to send one of mine.

-Mike
post #8352 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

There are plenty of numbers and graphs above 85db, but what exactly are you looking for? You have posted a couple times asking for -3db and max spl numbers, but you need to be more specific. Outdoor or in room measurements? CEA numbers, compression sweeps, THD limited sine waves, program material, etc? Owner generated or from Mark?

But here are just a few I found that are not just 85db sweeps:

Outdoor FR graph from Mark's forum that was previously posted here is higher than 85db.



Here are some progressive in room sweeps of dual submersives much higher than 85db that was in response to one of your posts.



Here is a ~95db in room sweep I have posted before of my submersive HP. It started to compress below 10hz so I did not go higher. If I started at 10hz instead, I could have gone much higher.



In room sweep of my HP and F2. Again not max levels, just where I chose to stop testing.



In room 10hz sine wave of my HP.



In room 20hz sine wave of my HP. I think something was off for my sine wave tests since 10hz was at a higher level with less distortion, but I didn't investigate and haven't revisited yet.



In room sweep of dual HPs posted here.



In room sweep of Submersive HP pair posted here.



I'm sure there have been more graphs posted and plenty of people have posted hitting 110db+ on SPL meters during music or movie playback.

If you are looking for a specific in room measurement, let me know. I'm hoping to take a full day soon and do quite a few measurements of my HP and F2 including some SpecLab mic captures of well known demo worthy clips.

I think the lack of groundplane measurements has been beaten to death, at least for now, in this thread and many others. Hopefully Mark gets something to Ricci so this can be put to rest. And possibly have an intelligent and constructive discussion of the results and not just: "OMG it did 1db more/less than sub X at 20hz". If it doesn't happen in the next couple months, I might be willing to send one of mine.

-Mike

Wow, thanks for the post Mike! The beginnings of my inquiries were novice and innocent of any of the recent "submersive not sent to Ricci," yet barrages of recent postings. It was a random thought at work and I just posted. I can see how some would become instantly irritated given it was beaten to death. But I, unfortunately, bit and took offense to snappiness and have since made apologies and still do if you didn't catch it smile.gif. Overall I just want to be %100 sure with my purchase of subsas it will be it for awhile. Prob 10+ years or more. Starting a fam, buying a home, etc. I have a great opportunity to hear a master/slave pair on the 17th. I will drive 5 hours, stay the night after work, and then be at the GTG then drive home that night. I also have a dual Orbit Shifter demo available generously again from RMK. I would like to stay away from that size but I am willing if it sounds/feels like what I am looking for. I just
Need to find some Captivator demos somewhat close. All these trips are several hundred that can go towards gear. I like that many submersive owners have said they desire nothing more from a subwoofer than what they have. That's a serious praise!
post #8353 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Wow, thanks for the post Mike! The beginnings of my inquiries were novice and innocent of any of the recent "submersive not sent to Ricci," yet barrages of recent postings. It was a random thought at work and I just posted. I can see how some would become instantly irritated given it was beaten to death. But I, unfortunately, bit and took offense to snappiness and have since made apologies and still do if you didn't catch it smile.gif. Overall I just want to be %100 sure with my purchase of subsas it will be it for awhile. Prob 10+ years or more. Starting a fam, buying a home, etc. I have a great opportunity to hear a master/slave pair on the 17th. I will drive 5 hours, stay the night after work, and then be at the GTG then drive home that night. I also have a dual Orbit Shifter demo available generously again from RMK. I would like to stay away from that size but I am willing if it sounds/feels like what I am looking for. I just
Need to find some Captivator demos somewhat close. All these trips are several hundred that can go towards gear. I like that many submersive owners have said they desire nothing more from a subwoofer than what they have. That's a serious praise!

I look forward to meeting at Kris's home on the 17th. It should be a fun day with a good group of enthusiasts in attendance.

When considering the trips, just remember you would spend far more than the product + any travel on any remotely comparable performance at a retail shop, and you will likely save yourself a couple upgrade adventures in the process which would sacrifice even more. One of the many reasons I am offerin the "Plus" option for the SubMersive is that I have always advised customers to set their sights on what they really want and assemble the system over time rather than compromising on the full setup they can afford in one shot. With this approach you always get a better result and usually spend less total money in the process. The SubMersive HP+/F2+ models allow you to break that end goal and cost into one more step. This is also why the slave units are the same price whether they are purchased with the master unit or 1-2 years down the road. I might only amend you observation about customers desires as I would say the only thing they may want in the future is to play with adding yet another SubMersive or 2 to the system. cool.gif
post #8354 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That's right. Personally I wouldn't choose any other sub but a Submersive. I think they are the best. I was recommending the JTRs specifically to jlpowell84 - they will be better for him because they have the graphs he requires. Jeez.... 

Morning or evening Keith! Evening I think. Have a good one!

Experience could change things. I just got hot on a graph and became stubborn to some defensive Seaton comments when I don't really know a lot of this stuff. I didn't realize no numbers or any type, shape or form of graph had ever been done besides a general 85db sweep. Anyway good day to you!

 

No worries!  I think that most of us in this thread are so incredibly happy with our Submersives that we can come across a bit 'fanboyish' sometimes ;)  It's not meant like that - we are just amazed on a daily basis at the quality and quantity of bass we are hearing in our HTs that's all. When you have had a chance to hear the SubM's yourself, I am sure you will see what we are all so enthusiastic about...

post #8355 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by west87 View Post

I hope to have my new Submersive HP this week

 

Prepare to be amazed...

post #8356 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Prepare to be amazed...

i got the box today at 10am and lets just say this has been the longest day ever. I can't wait to get it home
post #8357 of 9388
Oh I remember that glorious day :-)
post #8358 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by west87 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Prepare to be amazed...

i got the box today at 10am and lets just say this has been the longest day ever. I can't wait to get it home

 

LOL!  I know that feeling. We never really grow up do we?  We're just like kids at Christmas LOL.

 

You have an exciting time ahead. Remember that the Submersive responds well to careful set-up. Try to position it in the best place in the room (a sub crawl is, er, not easy with these subs, but it will pay dividends) then run any auto-room-EQ such as Audyssey that you might have. Then dig out War of the Worlds, go to the pod emergence scene and be sure to place your hand under your jaw to prevent it from hitting the floor....

 

Enjoy!

 

EDIT: I wrote a review after I had gotten my SubMs settled in, which also includes some insights on what I had to do to get them optimised. If you have time or inclination to take a look, here it is:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/7470#post_22657055


Edited by kbarnes701 - 8/8/13 at 1:12pm
post #8359 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by west87 View Post


i got the box today at 10am and lets just say this has been the longest day ever. I can't wait to get it home

to Piggy-Back on Keith's post, if you're looking for another user review to whet your appetite until you get home, here are my first impressions when I received my F2's last fall.  Take Keith's advice, because Submersive+Ears=Dropped Jaw! lol.

post #8360 of 9388
I have a couple of thoughts rolling around my head about the master/slave pair setup. I believe Mark said it will present the AVR With one subwoofer signal. So with running audyssey does this mean they have to be co located or equidistant to the MLP? Even if you had Sub EQ HT You could not set two different distances correct?
post #8361 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I have a couple of thoughts rolling around my head about the master/slave pair setup. I believe Mark said it will present the AVR With one subwoofer signal. So with running audyssey does this mean they have to be co located or equidistant to the MLP? Even if you had Sub EQ HT You could not set two different distances correct?
Yes, that's correct. The M/S pair receives only one signal.

To optimize the calibration with these, yes, co-location or equidistant would be easiest. Ideally though, something like REW will be most beneficial as you can test the results. In addition, if you aren't able to locate them equidistant or co-located, you can put them at different distances, and use REW to adjust the single distance/delay setting to see what produces the best result at the MLP.


Max
post #8362 of 9388
I'm confused about this M/S pair business.
Is there a thread that discusses this or on Marks forum?
Is it available yet?
post #8363 of 9388
post #8364 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Yes, that's correct. The M/S pair receives only one signal.

To optimize the calibration with these, yes, co-location or equidistant would be easiest. Ideally though, something like REW will be most beneficial as you can test the results. In addition, if you aren't able to locate them equidistant or co-located, you can put them at different distances, and use REW to adjust the single distance/delay setting to see what produces the best result at the MLP.


Max

The more I think this through. I "think" It would have to be one of those two options. Otherwise audyssey will set the trim to the closer sub witch obviously has a louder volume to the calibration mic. It's not like you can lower the gain on the closer sub. Of course this is all hypothetical. I have a Denon 3313 so I would have to do that either way. It's not like co located submersives is a bad thing, But you won't get the smoother response as spreading them out which would be the whole reason for me going this route rather than a single 3k JTR sub
Edited by jlpowell84 - 8/8/13 at 3:49pm
post #8365 of 9388
Thanks for the link, now I feel less like the kid who was out sick with mono for 3 months!
Looks like I can get my old 1k Submersive upgraded to + status as well, sweet!
post #8366 of 9388
Hi guys,

It's been a very busy week here, so I haven't had as much time as I'd like to answer all of the questions above. Thank you to those who have helped with answers already!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkzy56 View Post

I'm confused about this M/S pair business.
Is there a thread that discusses this or on Marks forum?
Is it available yet?

To save you some digging for info... buried a few pages back I posted this in response to a similar question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

They are daisy chained correct? Does this mean you cannot EQ the slave?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

Correct. You cant EQ the one with on the slave plate separately but having them run off the same amp is essentially having them Gained Matched which seems to be the preferred method provided one is not located at an extreme nearfield position and the other is located much further away.

One common amplifier channel = common signal to both master & slave... which is why we call it a slave as it does exactly what the master does.

This option is more directly intended for those placing two subwoofers at similar front to back locations in a room. Most often you want provide two subwoofers along the front wall with the same signal, and the same applies for two subwoofers at the sides or rear of the room. I envision this as a great path for customers to have one powered unit up front, another at the rear, and eventually upgrading to a master/slave pair up front, and possibly a pair at the rear as well.

This is not to say that a master/slave combo can't be placed front rear or asymmetrically, as this is exactly the assumption of the Harman multi-subwoofer papers by Todd Welti. My own experience in setting up many rooms has shown separate signals, especially delay, for front & rear subwoofer setups is preferred, especially when the rear subwoofer is much closer to the listener than the front subwoofers.

I also commented similarly here in the previously mentioned thread on our forum.

The HPi amplifiers are in stock, but we've been just barely keeping ahead of orders and our inventory of SubMersive cabinets is getting thin while our next few orders are in process at our cabinet shop. That said, most any SubMersive order will be no more than 2-3 weeks out, including the international "i+' versions. A few SubMersive"flavors" can ship in 1-2 business days.
post #8367 of 9388
Thanks very much Mark!
So would I order a new HP + then send in my old 1k amp for a save amp?
post #8368 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Yes, that's correct. The M/S pair receives only one signal.

To optimize the calibration with these, yes, co-location or equidistant would be easiest. Ideally though, something like REW will be most beneficial as you can test the results. In addition, if you aren't able to locate them equidistant or co-located, you can put them at different distances, and use REW to adjust the single distance/delay setting to see what produces the best result at the MLP.


Max

The more I think this through. I "think" It would have to be one of those two options. Otherwise audyssey will set the trim to the closer sub witch obviously has a louder volume to the calibration mic. It's not like you can lower the gain on the closer sub. Of course this is all hypothetical. I have a Denon 3313 so I would have to do that either way. It's not like co located submersives is a bad thing, But you won't get the smoother response as spreading them out which would be the whole reason for me going this route rather than a single 3k JTR sub
You can still place them in different positions to smooth out the in-room response. The fact that you have only one delay/distance setting means you don't want to put one sub behind your seat and the other 15' away.

You can then use the delay setting to optimize the crossover integration.


Max
post #8369 of 9388
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

You can still place them in different positions to smooth out the in-room response. The fact that you have only one delay/distance setting means you don't want to put one sub behind your seat and the other 15' away.

That's the problem I am going to have. Because of real estate I have one location up front, and anywhere along the back wall for the second. So one will be right behind the couch, and the other 15' away. I'm most likely going to get 2 F2 HP's.

Right now I have 2 velo digital drive's, and they both have SMS. The way I calibrated my system is I ran a self EQ with one DD, then did a manual EQ to do the second. After I got them as flat as possible with SMS I ran auddyssey XT32.

Would it be recommended to get a SMS, mini DSP, anti mode, etc....for each F2 I get? That way I can take the same approach, EQ each sub individualy, then let XT32 combine them as one?
post #8370 of 9388
Oops....did that wrong! Lol What the hell did I do? I meant to quote a paragraph, then comment on it, but it all showed as a quote. Noob
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