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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 288

post #8611 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

That first response is incredibly smooth. I wish i had that!

 

It's a result of using REW, measuring the room, seeing where the problems lay and then using treatments and EQ to try to combat them. I have no special background or anything in this subject - all I have learned has been from AVS threads, in particular (in this context) the REW HDMI/USB thread which is aimed at REW newcomers and novices.  Maybe you should take a look at the thread and see if we could help you get your response flatter?  A lot can be done just with speaker and sub placement - after that it's going to be down to treatments and how you use EQ. It is a very worthwhile goal to get the frequency response brought into line, and - just as, or even more, important, to get ringing under control and bad reflections minimised. REW can help with all that. REW is free and the only other cost is about $100 for a calibrated mic. For the potential benefits to your SQ, it will be the best $100 you ever spend in this hobby, I guarantee.  Just a thought...

post #8612 of 9398
Pretty sweet scene in Breaking Bad final with the M60 - wish more movies had weight like that
post #8613 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Audioguy, how are your Submersives going? Still got the 4 or or have you added more?

Still have them. We sold our home and am working on getting the new theater up. We are only at the new house on weekends for a while so it is taking time. 95% of the construction of the room is done (need to build the surround columns) and am in the midst of installing room treatment; then the screen, then the masking system, then the PJ.

After that speaker placement and then I will learn if I need the 4 subs I have or less. Can not ever imagine needing more woofage in this sized room.

Thanks for asking.

I see u finally got an operational theater. VERY nice!
post #8614 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Still have them. We sold our home and am working on getting the new theater up. We are only at the new house on weekends for a while so it is taking time. 95% of the construction of the room is done (need to build the surround columns) and am in the midst of installing room treatment; then the screen, then the masking system, then the PJ.

After that speaker placement and then I will learn if I need the 4 subs I have or less. Can not ever imagine needing more woofage in this sized room.

Thanks for asking.

I see u finally got an operational theater. VERY nice!

Is the new room being designed or doing it yourself -
post #8615 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Still have them. We sold our home and am working on getting the new theater up. We are only at the new house on weekends for a while so it is taking time. 95% of the construction of the room is done (need to build the surround columns) and am in the midst of installing room treatment; then the screen, then the masking system, then the PJ.

After that speaker placement and then I will learn if I need the 4 subs I have or less. Can not ever imagine needing more woofage in this sized room.

Thanks for asking.

I see u finally got an operational theater. VERY nice!

Sounds like I need to plan a road trip to come visit. smile.gif
post #8616 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Still have them. We sold our home and am working on getting the new theater up. We are only at the new house on weekends for a while so it is taking time. 95% of the construction of the room is done (need to build the surround columns) and am in the midst of installing room treatment; then the screen, then the masking system, then the PJ.

After that speaker placement and then I will learn if I need the 4 subs I have or less. Can not ever imagine needing more woofage in this sized room.

Thanks for asking.

I see u finally got an operational theater. VERY nice!

Nice! Looking forward to pics. I seen the ones of your last room. It was absolutely beautiful!
post #8617 of 9398
So last night I was playing the song, "Sail" by Awolnation. I turned up the Submersives hot and freaking wow! The kick drum was MASSIVE! Said 112 db on my rat shack meter which I know is like 10 db short on bass so like 122 db then? I don't know for sure but it was awesome. I asked my fiancé how she likes the new subs compared to my last single HSU VTF 15H. She said she likes it a lot more because she said the quality and sound of the bass she said is so beautiful, much more detailed and pronounced. That means a lot because usually she just laughs and nods her head if I explain anything to do with my system. Anyway I know they have much more because I have them both on a 15 amp breaker and didn't trip it. Cool stuff guys!
post #8618 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Just don't tear out any walls! eek.gif

biggrin.gif

Craig

Nah dont worry, i wont be tearing walls. My parents are in the house wink.gif
Its going to involve moving around the couches, not too much work. I might do the sub crawl again, not too fun with the submersive. Shes so heavy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So last night I was playing the song, "Sail" by Awolnation. I turned up the Submersives hot and freaking wow! The kick drum was MASSIVE! Said 112 db on my rat shack meter which I know is like 10 db short on bass so like 122 db then? I don't know for sure but it was awesome. I asked my fiancé how she likes the new subs compared to my last single HSU VTF 15H. She said she likes it a lot more because she said the quality and sound of the bass she said is so beautiful, much more detailed and pronounced. That means a lot because usually she just laughs and nods her head if I explain anything to do with my system. Anyway I know they have much more because I have them both on a 15 amp breaker and didn't trip it. Cool stuff guys!

Never knew that had much of a kick
Edited by Ashi777 - 10/1/13 at 12:20pm
post #8619 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's a result of using REW, measuring the room, seeing where the problems lay and then using treatments and EQ to try to combat them. I have no special background or anything in this subject - all I have learned has been from AVS threads, in particular (in this context) the REW HDMI/USB thread which is aimed at REW newcomers and novices.  Maybe you should take a look at the thread and see if we could help you get your response flatter?  A lot can be done just with speaker and sub placement - after that it's going to be down to treatments and how you use EQ. It is a very worthwhile goal to get the frequency response brought into line, and - just as, or even more, important, to get ringing under control and bad reflections minimised. REW can help with all that. REW is free and the only other cost is about $100 for a calibrated mic. For the potential benefits to your SQ, it will be the best $100 you ever spend in this hobby, I guarantee.  Just a thought...

Thanks for the insight kbarnes.

I have been considering REW, up until now 've just stuck to the graphs that I get from the SMS-1. This is because the on-board sound card in my desktop is not that great. Its fairly old. And my laptop has beats audio.... Quite possibly the worst experience I have had with sound EVER. I could use every swear word known to man to describe how terrible the beats EQ is.

I can use the Mic that comes with the SMS-1. I've heard that its a very very good mic.
post #8620 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Nah dont worry, i wont be tearing walls. My parents are in the house wink.gif
Its going to involve moving around the couches, not too much work. I might do the sub crawl again, not too fun with the submersive. Shes so heavy.
Never knew that had much of a kick

You mean that song? I went into my AVR sub levels and jacked it up a lot just to she what the babies have wink.gif
post #8621 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Thanks for the insight kbarnes.

I have been considering REW, up until now 've just stuck to the graphs that I get from the SMS-1. This is because the on-board sound card in my desktop is not that great. Its fairly old. And my laptop has beats audio.... Quite possibly the worst experience I have had with sound EVER. I could use every swear word known to man to describe how terrible the beats EQ is.

I can use the Mic that comes with the SMS-1. I've heard that its a very very good mic.
It's a good mic, but it's calibration is not known and can't be loaded into REW. Also, it's not a USB mic, so you need an external sound card to use it.

I can't remember... have you ever posted a pic of your SMS-1 response?

Craig
post #8622 of 9398
Do any of you use a mini dsp with Submersives? I have been asking some questions on Carps thread as he has integrated a mini dsp with his SI 18's. I got this great detailed answer.

"A power amp has a spec called the input sensitivity. This is the input voltage to the power amp, in Volts RMS, required to drive the amp to full power. Let's take two examples. I'll just make up some round numbers for these specs to make it simpler.

First, suppose you have a power amp that puts out 1000 Watts and has an input sensitivity of 2 Volts RMS. Let's say you drive it with a line-level circuit that's capable of 4 Volts RMS output. When the input of the power amp is 2 Volts RMS, it's putting out full power, and the line-level circuit is not really breathing hard yet, as it's only providing half the output voltage of which it's capable.

Now take this same power amp and hook it up to a line-level circuit whose maximum output voltage is 1 Volt RMS. At this point, the line-level circuit gives up the ghost while putting out only half the voltage needed by the power amp to drive it to full power. With only half the required input voltage, the power amp is only putting out one-fourth of its maximum output power. So by using a line-level circuit that can only provide half the required input voltage to the power amp, it's as if we had turned our 1000 Watt amp into a 250 Watt amp.

The conclusion is that the maximum output voltage of the line-level circuit that drives the power amp should be larger than that power amp's input sensitivity. Some safety margin should be provided as well."

So surely we wouldn't want to limit the 2.4 kW amp! This generated because the unbalanced 2x4 mini dsp has an output rating of 0.9 Volts RMS maximum output voltage spec
post #8623 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Do any of you use a mini dsp with Submersives? I have been asking some questions on Carps thread as he has integrated a mini dsp with his SI 18's. I got this great detailed answer.

"A power amp has a spec called the input sensitivity. This is the input voltage to the power amp, in Volts RMS, required to drive the amp to full power. Let's take two examples. I'll just make up some round numbers for these specs to make it simpler.

First, suppose you have a power amp that puts out 1000 Watts and has an input sensitivity of 2 Volts RMS. Let's say you drive it with a line-level circuit that's capable of 4 Volts RMS output. When the input of the power amp is 2 Volts RMS, it's putting out full power, and the line-level circuit is not really breathing hard yet, as it's only providing half the output voltage of which it's capable.

Now take this same power amp and hook it up to a line-level circuit whose maximum output voltage is 1 Volt RMS. At this point, the line-level circuit gives up the ghost while putting out only half the voltage needed by the power amp to drive it to full power. With only half the required input voltage, the power amp is only putting out one-fourth of its maximum output power. So by using a line-level circuit that can only provide half the required input voltage to the power amp, it's as if we had turned our 1000 Watt amp into a 250 Watt amp.

The conclusion is that the maximum output voltage of the line-level circuit that drives the power amp should be larger than that power amp's input sensitivity. Some safety margin should be provided as well."

So surely we wouldn't want to limit the 2.4 kW amp! This generated because the unbalanced 2x4 mini dsp has an output rating of 0.9 Volts RMS maximum output voltage spec

Long ago I configured the gain in the SubMersive to reach maximum in the upper end of the range with about 2Vp-p if I'm recalling correctly. This is with the gain at 0dB. This allows the occasional 2ch system or older preamp to not work to hard, and there's no issue in turning the gain down as it really sucks if you don't have enough gain.

We went over a similar question here on our forum. With the higher Voltage output/balanced version of the MiniDSP you will be fine so long as you check the output levels of the miniDSP and adjust as needed since the receivers or preamp can often over-drive the MiniDSP input.
post #8624 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

You mean that song? I went into my AVR sub levels and jacked it up a lot just to she what the babies have wink.gif

Yeah that makes sense. I just found a song with some pretty hefty bass. Got a pretty fast drum kick, nice to test the submersives speed. It hits very hard. Called "happiness (troubled faces)"- by Pretty Lights. Its available for free download from the artists website too.

http://prettylightsmusic.com/index2.html#/downloads
post #8625 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Long ago I configured the gain in the SubMersive to reach maximum in the upper end of the range with about 2Vp-p if I'm recalling correctly. This is with the gain at 0dB. This allows the occasional 2ch system or older preamp to not work to hard, and there's no issue in turning the gain down as it really sucks if you don't have enough gain.

We went over a similar question here on our forum. With the higher Voltage output/balanced version of the MiniDSP you will be fine so long as you check the output levels of the miniDSP and adjust as needed since the receivers or preamp can often over-drive the MiniDSP input.

Ok so it's safe to say this is the model one would want to use with the submersive?
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-balanced-2x4

And do you think contacting Denon would be the best way to find out the output on the sub out on my 3313?
I'll check over on its forum too
post #8626 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Yeah that makes sense. I just found a song with some pretty hefty bass. Got a pretty fast drum kick, nice to test the submersives speed. It hits very hard. Called "happiness (troubled faces)"- by Pretty Lights. Its available for free download from the artists website too.

http://prettylightsmusic.com/index2.html#/downloads

I'm gonna check this out Ashi when I get home!
post #8627 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

It's a good mic, but it's calibration is not known and can't be loaded into REW. Also, it's not a USB mic, so you need an external sound card to use it.

I can't remember... have you ever posted a pic of your SMS-1 response?

Craig


Right, I've read that it is uncalibrated. Not being able to load it into REW is clearly going to be a problem for me.

I made a post a couple of weeks ago on this thread as regards my problem. I can upload the pictures again. smile.gif
post #8628 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So last night I was playing the song, "Sail" by Awolnation. I turned up the Submersives hot and freaking wow! The kick drum was MASSIVE! Said 112 db on my rat shack meter which I know is like 10 db short on bass so like 122 db then? I don't know for sure but it was awesome. I asked my fiancé how she likes the new subs compared to my last single HSU VTF 15H. She said she likes it a lot more because she said the quality and sound of the bass she said is so beautiful, much more detailed and pronounced. That means a lot because usually she just laughs and nods her head if I explain anything to do with my system. Anyway I know they have much more because I have them both on a 15 amp breaker and didn't trip it. Cool stuff guys!

 

Fiancé or fiancée?  Just sayin'...... LOL!

post #8629 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's a result of using REW, measuring the room, seeing where the problems lay and then using treatments and EQ to try to combat them. I have no special background or anything in this subject - all I have learned has been from AVS threads, in particular (in this context) the REW HDMI/USB thread which is aimed at REW newcomers and novices.  Maybe you should take a look at the thread and see if we could help you get your response flatter?  A lot can be done just with speaker and sub placement - after that it's going to be down to treatments and how you use EQ. It is a very worthwhile goal to get the frequency response brought into line, and - just as, or even more, important, to get ringing under control and bad reflections minimised. REW can help with all that. REW is free and the only other cost is about $100 for a calibrated mic. For the potential benefits to your SQ, it will be the best $100 you ever spend in this hobby, I guarantee.  Just a thought...

Thanks for the insight kbarnes.

I have been considering REW, up until now 've just stuck to the graphs that I get from the SMS-1. This is because the on-board sound card in my desktop is not that great. Its fairly old. And my laptop has beats audio.... Quite possibly the worst experience I have had with sound EVER. I could use every swear word known to man to describe how terrible the beats EQ is.

I can use the Mic that comes with the SMS-1. I've heard that its a very very good mic.

 

You can use that mic to get a feel for how REW works, but you can't use it for serious measuring because for that you need a calibrated mic with a calibration you can load into REW.

 

Also, as Craig says, if it's not a USB mic the thread I mentioned is going to be of no use for you.

post #8630 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Fiancé or fiancée?  Just sayin'...... LOL!

It's the damn iPhone auto correct! A guy at my work actually says finance!
post #8631 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Fiancé or fiancée?  Just sayin'...... LOL!

It's the damn iPhone auto correct! A guy at my work actually says finance!

 

He may have a point ;)

post #8632 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

He may have a point wink.gif

Clever, good one wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You can use that mic to get a feel for how REW works, but you can't use it for serious measuring because for that you need a calibrated mic with a calibration you can load into REW.

Also, as Craig says, if it's not a USB mic the thread I mentioned is going to be of no use for you.

Alright that makes sense. I'll have to see how much those types of mics are here. Behringer isn't very big here in NZ. That's the brand I should be going for right?
post #8633 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Clever, good one wink.gif
Alright that makes sense. I'll have to see how much those types of mics are here. Behringer isn't very big here in NZ. That's the brand I should be going for right?

You can try the Umik-1 i cant give much advice on how well it works yet as i just ordered one but it seems to be rated well with REW.

http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
post #8634 of 9398
Or cross spectrum labs UMM-6 USB mic is what I have, Keith has one too
post #8635 of 9398
I have a mini dsp mic I never used. $50 plus shipping!
post #8636 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I have a mini dsp mic I never used. $50 plus shipping!

Edit, I just read mic. My bad, thought you wrote just mini dsp. Ashi there you go! Good deal!
post #8637 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

He may have a point wink.gif

Clever, good one wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You can use that mic to get a feel for how REW works, but you can't use it for serious measuring because for that you need a calibrated mic with a calibration you can load into REW.

Also, as Craig says, if it's not a USB mic the thread I mentioned is going to be of no use for you.

Alright that makes sense. I'll have to see how much those types of mics are here. Behringer isn't very big here in NZ. That's the brand I should be going for right?

 

I bought mine from Cross Spectrum Labs, fully calibrated for $100 plus shipping.  Herb ships all over the world so this might be the best route for you too. It's hopeless trying to find this stuff in the UK. I 

didn’t realise you were a Kiwi (or I’d forgotten more like).

post #8638 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

Is the new room being designed or doing it yourself -

See

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1477222/home-theater-number-four
post #8639 of 9398
Cheers for the input on the mics guys.

I'll be looking in to buying one towards the end of the year. Shipping would cost a lot if I were to get it from you Audioguy, since you live in USA.


And here are some pics illustrating my room response.

This is the response with the mic at the seating position. Untreated.


Response with mic inside the gap which is causing the problems. You can see how the mid range takes a huge gain.


This is a picture of the gap- its pretty much a cabinet built in to the wall. The doors and all are glass. The position that the red stool thing is in, is the seating position.
post #8640 of 9398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Cheers for the input on the mics guys.

I'll be looking in to buying one towards the end of the year. Shipping would cost a lot if I were to get it from you Audioguy, since you live in USA.


And here are some pics illustrating my room response.

This is the response with the mic at the seating position. Untreated.

Ashi, you're not using the EQ in your SMS-1 at all. Why not? Your response is not that bad and is certainly correctable with the SMS-1 EQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Response with mic inside the gap which is causing the problems. You can see how the mid range takes a huge gain.

Does anyone listen from that alcove? If not, don't bother measuring there. Measure the listening positions. And if you see a response that pegs against the top of the chart like that, you have the SMS-1's Volume too high. Turn it down. You have the Volume set to 40. Unity Gain on the SMS-1 is 15. Turn it down. Follow the instructions in the SMS-1 manual for setting the SMS-1 Volume: http://velodyne.com/pdf/sms-1/sms-1_manual_english.pdf See Page 20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

This is a picture of the gap- its pretty much a cabinet built in to the wall. The doors and all are glass. The position that the red stool thing is in, is the seating position.

Unless the glass is rattling during bass-heavy scenes, the glass will impact the upper midrange and treble a lot more than it will the bass. If the glass is rattling while you're running the SMS-1 sweeps, open the doors slightly and they should stop rattling. Either that or secure them so they don't rattle.

Craig
Edited by craig john - 10/3/13 at 5:30am
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