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Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 299

post #8941 of 9374
I'm a huge fan of three towers or 3 matching speakers up front. I do realize must people can't do it but I hate seeing awesome towers behind a screen with a sideways speaker as a center channel.

To tell you the truth I did not care about the different color as they are all behind the screen, I just loved the fact that you got a single tower to use as your center.

Bravo!!! biggrin.gif
post #8942 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by supercop View Post

Hi Guys,

How to 100% avoid clipping for original Submersive 1000w.

I do have 2 of them and about to finish my room soon.

How do we set up volume knop/ pre-pro gain or crossover on my 2 SubM original so that clipping does not happend at all?

Please do suggest and educate me,

Thank you

Of course thats a whole different ballgame with a mini dsp unit in the signal chain. I have both of my 2.4's set just above halfway...
post #8943 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Do report back. BTW, congrats on joining the SubM Club!  This is one AV purchase you will enjoy for years and years and years... upgradeitis is a thing of the past when you have a SubM. Of course, you can always add one or two more.... smile.gif

So I thought I would report back. No official measurements yet, i just finally got my XT32 tests done, leveled my crossover settings to 80, and brought up the sub gain to 0. ( I think the actual physical volume knob only made it two ticks from the off setting ) I was going to wait until the demo below to determine if I should up the volume knob any more.... I didn't need to...

I posted this in my build thread
Quote:
First demo of course was War of the Worlds. For some reason, the last time I listened to this, I thought all of the bass was at the beginning of the pod scene.... I WAS SO WRONG!!!! Of course the deep rumble let me know it was time for the fub to begin, but when the pod actually emerged and "Put its foot down"... I thought my chair moved. I giggled a little... this is exactly what I wanted!

I only ran the one scene as a demo before shutting down, but I will have a lot more time to play this weekend!
post #8944 of 9374
Had no idea how good IPA's are. Turns out they are pretty good.

BTW, my most recent sub "moment" was from the movie World War Z...later in the movie. Funniest thing about it was just before this "moment" the wife said, "is the subwoofer on?" After this "moment", which was literally less than 60 seconds after she said that, I said, "Uh, does that answer your question?"

Also a few years ago when my brother was like 20 years old, he made some music with his pc. He's a good musician and can play about any instrument, but this music was mostly digital stuff with lots of bass. But he never really got to fully experience the bass he had produced until he comes over to my house, where I have a single Submersive HP. He likes when I crank it for him. I do too.
Edited by mphfrom77 - 1/16/14 at 10:35pm
post #8945 of 9374
Hey guys,

Was playing around with Bass I love you with my Submersive, 1000watt.

Started noticing that the sub was distorting when the song goes really low.

Volume on receiver is -10db (lowest i can go)

Volume on the submersive amp is -26.

Volume on my SMS-1 Velodyne sub eq is 25. Max is 100.


Given these figures, do you think the submersive should be distorting? Also, I've noticed distortion when playing a 50hz sine wave at a fairly high volume.

It sounds like a beating noise. As if the drivers are hitting something during excursion. And, it's worth noting, I never see an orange LED come up on the amp when this is happening.


Thanks!
post #8946 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

Hey guys,

Was playing around with Bass I love you with my Submersive, 1000watt.

Started noticing that the sub was distorting when the song goes really low.

Volume on receiver is -10db (lowest i can go)

Volume on the submersive amp is -26.

Volume on my SMS-1 Velodyne sub eq is 25. Max is 100.


Given these figures, do you think the submersive should be distorting? Also, I've noticed distortion when playing a 50hz sine wave at a fairly high volume.

It sounds like a beating noise. As if the drivers are hitting something during excursion. And, it's worth noting, I never see an orange LED come up on the amp when this is happening.


Thanks!

Unity gain on your SMS -1 is 15. Try removing the SMS-1 from the signal chain and try it again.
post #8947 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by nb67 View Post

Unity gain on your SMS -1 is 15. Try removing the SMS-1 from the signal chain and try it again.
Or turn the SMS-1 down to 15 and raise the gain on the SubM 10 dB.

Craig
post #8948 of 9374
Right thanks Craig John and nb67 for the help.

I understand now, I'm adding 10db more then I should. I'll call 15db the "safe zone"

smile.gif
post #8949 of 9374
I play "Bass I Love You" with +5 over reference with 4dbs on my Submersives hot and never heard a bad sound come from them smile.gif

Edit - Cool, you found the issue! smile.gif
post #8950 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post

I play "Bass I Love You" with +5 over reference with 4dbs on my Submersives hot and never heard a bad sound come from them smile.gif

Edit - Cool, you found the issue! smile.gif

You sound like you really are submersed tongue.gif
post #8951 of 9374
Cool Mark's delivering mine are coming in about a couple weeks.
post #8952 of 9374
I had the excellent good fortune to have Mark Seaton stop by my place yesterday after the NE speaker GTG. He surprised me at the last minute and accompanied several other members, (Archaea, carp, Ironhead and Ben, who's username I didn't get), for a quick visit. We had a great time, and excellent conversation and camaraderie, as well as spending some time checking out the SubM's, the Triad Platinum speakers and the rest of my system.

We started with a classical BluRay selection that has incredible picture quality, fantastic sound quality and is just some beautiful music:



If you like classical music, and you don't have this in your collection, you need to add it: http://www.amazon.com/Lucerne-Festival-Beethoven-Rimsky-Korsakov/dp/B007N0SX2W/ref=pd_bxgy_mov_img_y

Next we watched the "Brontosaurus Stampede" and the "T-Rex Battle" scenes from King Kong. That movie has incredible surround sound and lots of strong, deep bass, (although it's not a "bottom dweller" like some other flicks.) Nonetheless, it's just an excellent demo disc. It's about 2 hours too long, but some of the CGI is absolutely the best. It nicely showed the image quality of the JVC RS-55, while the soundtrack let the SubM's and the Triads stretch their legs. We watched it at full Reference Level.

Next we watched the scene from Terminator: Salvation where the gas station blows up and the motorcycles chase the guys in the truck. This track was recorded MUCH louder than King Kong. We watched at -3 on the MVC, and that still seemed a litle too loud. Nonetheless there are some prolonged bass effects and the SubM's reproduced those without strain or compression.

We spent the rest of the day listening to music... Steely Dan, Dire Straits, Nora Jones, Nils Lofgren, Fairfield Four, Bozz Scaggs, as well as a few others.

Mark had a suggestion for my setup. He showed me how a simple 3" forward movement of my head could improve an upper bass "wooliness." I plan to move my seating forward 3" in the near future, based on this suggestion. I remember a few years back when audioguy had Mark at his place and Mark moved one of his speakers a couple of inches and Chuck said the imaging shifted into perfect place. I was skeptical at the time that such a small change could have a significant impact, but it convinced me to play around with the placement of my speakers, improving them in the process. This little tweak from Mark yesterday falls into the same category. Thanks Mark!

Afterwards we went to DMark1's place and listened to his sets of Legacy speakers. Hopefully there'll be some posts by the guys in attendance in the Legacy thread as well as this one.

Thanks again guys for coming over. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And having you bring Mark along was the icing on the cake!!!

Craig
Edited by craig john - 1/20/14 at 4:29pm
post #8953 of 9374
Craig, what did you use for treatments in your room and do you have any pics?
post #8954 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Craig, what did you use for treatments in your room and do you have any pics?
Thanks for asking. smile.gif There are some pics in the link in my signature.

I have the entire front wall covered in 2" of acoustic cotton. The side walls to 4' from the front wall are also covered in acoustic cotton, 4" thick. In the front corners, I have an additional 8" of acoustic cotton. Over top of all that, I have triple thickness burgundy velvet curtains made by my wife. These cover the acoustic treatments PLUS they make the entire front of the room a "black hole" for light.



The entire ceiling is a big bass trap. I have 1" thick acoustic ceiling tiles in a dropped ceiling. These are *real" acoustic tiles: http://www.certainteed.com/products/ceilings/index/314118 with an NRC of 0.95. The tiles are installed 4" below the joists.
Above the ceiling, the overhead 2x8 joists are stuffed with fluffy fiberglass. So the entire ceiling is 12.5" of absorption, (1" + 4" + 7.5" = 12.5") The finish on the ceiling is the "Black Nubby" finish with a Light Reflectance of 0.03. IOW, the entire ceiling is a "black hole" for both light and sound.

I have 1.5" thick fiberglass panels at the 1st reflection points for the side walls and at various places around the room, (rear wall, side walls behind the LP, etc.) Here's a pic of one grouping of the panels:



The floor is carpeted over the heaviest pad in the front half of the room for absorption, but has linoleum in the rear half to increase reflectivity.

The measured noise floor in my room is 35 to 38 dB. To me, this is a key component to good acoustic treatment. You need to have a silent room. I have built a soffit around the AC ducts and I sound insulated them to reduce AC noise into the room.

Craig
post #8955 of 9374
Craig's room is seriously well done. I had the pleasure of visiting a while back to hear the Triads and certainly he has done an excellent job! Those speakers sound amazing in his room and detail is striking.

However, my room is bright, no treatments, open floor plan.... As much as I wanted the Triads, I just thought I'd be wasting my money to put them in this room. Moreover, I walked away with the feeling they were just not going to get to the concert levels I really wanted on the occasion that I felt I needed them. So...I went another route.

Having listening to the JTRs and Seaton Cats in addition to the Triads, I ended up buying the Cat 12s. mhrischuk was selling them, I went to his place and listened, they seemed to fall right between the JTRs and Triads, and I wouldn't have to be worried with external amplification. So, I picked them up. So far, so good...but there are a few little things I need to work out.

Anyway, here's my latest Omnimic measurements with the new Cat 12s and dual SubM HPs:

This one is 1/6 smoothing, with Audyssey set to flat and dynamic EQ off (because at these lower volumes it was boosting the bass to compensate, and I didn't want to turn it up much louder and annoy my wife, lol):



Here's an unsmoothed graph of the left/right/and mono-pair:



So far, pretty happy. I'm sure there are things I could do to better it, I'm hoping the above graph may give some members insight and maybe they can suggest some stuff....

Anyway, the only major issues that I'm having are probably related to my situation -- I'm hoping Mark can help me fix them, but it seems like electrical noise. I bought a Panamax AC unit thinking it may help, it didn't eliminate the problem, though it did slightly reduce it. But, these issues affected my old Parasound amplifier and now the Seaton amplifiers. So, it has to be something in my electrical system/house....no idea what...really miffed!
post #8956 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I had the excellent good fortune to have Mark Seaton stop by my place yesterday after the NE speaker GTG. He surprised me at the last minute and accompanied several other members, (Archaea, carp, Ironhead and Ben, who's username I didn't get), for a quick visit. We had a great time, and excellent conversation and camaraderie, as well as spending some time checking out the SubM's, the Triad Platinum speakers and the rest of my system.

We started with a classical BluRay selection that has incredible picture quality, fantastic sound quality and is just some beautiful music:



If you like classical music, and you don't have this in your collection, you need to add it: http://www.amazon.com/Lucerne-Festival-Beethoven-Rimsky-Korsakov/dp/B007N0SX2W/ref=pd_bxgy_mov_img_y

Next we watched the "Brontosaurus Stampede" and the "T-Rex Battle" scenes from King Kong. That movie has incredible surround sound and lots of strong, deep bass, (although it's not a "bottom dweller" like some other flicks.) Nonetheless, it's just an excellent demo disc. It's about 2 hours too long, but some of the CGI is absolutely the best. It nicely showed the image quality of the JVC RS-55, while the soundtrack let the SubM's and the Triads stretch their legs. We watched it at full Reference Level.

Next we watched the scene from Terminator: Salvation where the gas station blows up and the motorcycles chase the guys in the truck. This track was recorded MUCH louder than King Kong. We watched at -3 on the MVC, and that still seemed a litle too loud. Nonetheless there are some prolonged bass effects and the SubM's reproduced those without strain or compression.

We spent the rest of the day listening to music... Steely Dan, Dire Straits, Nora Jones, Nils Lofgren, Fairfield Four, Bozz Scaggs, as well as a few others.

Mark had a suggestion for my setup. He showed me how a simple 3" forward movement of my head could improve an upper bass "wooliness." I plan to move my seating forward 3" in the near future, based on this suggestion. I remember a few years back when audioguy had Mark at his place and Mark moved one of his speakers a couple of inches and Chuck said the imaging shifted into perfect place. I was skeptical at the time that such a small change could have a significant impact, but it convinced me to play around with the placement of my speakers, improving them in the process. This little tweak from Mark yesterday falls into the same category. Thanks Mark!

Afterwards we went to DMark1's place and listened to his sets of Legacy speakers. Hopefully there'll be some posts by the guys in attendance in the Legacy thread as well as this one.

Thanks again guys for coming over. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And having you bring Mark along was the icing on the cake!!!

Craig


Craig since you have your system dialed in so perfect and when you mention you had it at full Reference level 0db. If you were to use av test tones would your speakers be at 85db. Just trying to learn these terms when setting up levels for speakers. When setting up speaker levels Reference of 75db seems be standard. And some people have said there Reference level on mv is at a different position than 0db. So when some one says full Reference level do i assume there just using 0db has a Reference point or an actual db level Reference point ?
post #8957 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by akbash View Post

Craig since you have your system dialed in so perfect and when you mention you had it at full Reference level 0db. If you were to use av test tones would your speakers be at 85db. Just trying to learn these terms when setting up levels for speakers. When setting up speaker levels Reference of 75db seems be standard. And some people have said there Reference level on mv is at a different position than 0db. So when some one says full Reference level do i assume there just using 0db has a Reference point or an actual db level Reference point ?

The best explanation I've ever seen of "Reference Level" was written by forum member JHaz. I bookmarked it for easy reference. Here it is:
Quote:
Reference level is a calibration not an spl for any particular content. To repeat, reference level is a calibration. It is used for mixing movies so that every sound in the final sound track is at a specific SPL level when played back at reference.

Here's how it works. In the digital age, the max encodable level is called 0dBFS(full scale). Everything that is not at full scale can be described as - some number of dB from full scale. Movie mixing rooms (and movie theaters, at least theoretically), are calibrated so that pink noise encoded at -20dBFS plays back at 85 dB in each speaker (surrounds are actually 82 but there are always multiples on a movie mixing stage and home calibration equal to the mains is appropriate).

It was discovered by AVR manufacturers that their customers found 85 dB too blinking loud to listen to a test noise, so they started using a different way to achieve the same thing. Using a pink noise signal encoded at -30 dBFS, home speakers are calibrated at 75 dB. It should be apparent upon reflection that these result in exactly the same calibration. A sound encoded at -40 dBFS will sound at 65 dB at reference level under either calibration approach. A sound encoded at 0dBFS would be 105 dB in the room. It's a bit confusing but you can't confuse sound pressure in a room - - dB SPL - - with the encoding levels of movies or other media.

I tend to listen to movies well below reference. If I set my master volume at -20 dB, that means that a sound encoded at -20 dBFS on disk will sound 65 dB loud in my room, versus the 85 it would be if I were at reference.

Now the last twist important for consideration of sub specs is that the LFE channel (the .1 in 7.1) actually can play louder than all the others. What happens is that after reading the digital data off the disk, the system turns it up 10 dB (so the whole LFE channel is encoded differently from the rest of the channels). Thus the LFE channel max, at reference, is 115 dB, and at my -20 dBFS master volume level, the LFE channel will max out at 95 dB.

There are "rules" for movies as to calibration so that playback can be consistent with artistic intent of the film's makers, in the calibration described above. There are no rules whatsoever that say how loud anything must be in a movie. Silent passages will be encoded as all zeroes digitally, and will be silent whether you play at reference or far below. I've seen it said that dialog runs typically somewhere around the 85 dB SPL range, but that's far far from a hard and fast rule and some movies have it significantly lower. V for Vendetta is an example of a movie with much lower than normal dialog levels.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1426079/understanding-sub-test-results#post_22340519

Craig
post #8958 of 9374
Thanks Craig . Nice write up,easy to understand just what i was looking for in answering my question about Reference level.
post #8959 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Cool Mark's delivering mine are coming in about a couple weeks.
That's nice for you, us Ozzie guys have been waiting since September, with a shipment to leave in December that never eventuated and now no update of why or when it shipping, looks like our stocks helping meet us demand
post #8960 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


We started with a classical BluRay selection that has incredible picture quality, fantastic sound quality and is just some beautiful music:



If you like classical music, and you don't have this in your collection, you need to add it: http://www.amazon.com/Lucerne-Festival-Beethoven-Rimsky-Korsakov/dp/B007N0SX2W/ref=pd_bxgy_mov_img_y

Craig

Causing me to spend more money wink.gif - and l'm loving every minute of it. I just ordered from Amazon. Thanks.
post #8961 of 9374
Is it okay to mix a single Sub F2 with dual JL F113? I will have a hard time selling my subs (Dubai), so im thinking to mix the two brands, seaton to cover the lower freq (20hz below)

Any comments/advise is deeply appreciated. Thanks a lot.
post #8962 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Causing me to spend more money wink.gif - and l'm loving every minute of it. I just ordered from Amazon. Thanks.
This disc is the classical music equivalent of The Art of Flight in terms of picture and sound quality. The bass is good but not at the level or extension of AoF. Still, for classical music, the percussion and cellos are really well recorded and balanced with rest of the soundtrack. You're gonna love it.

Craig
Edited by craig john - 1/23/14 at 11:39am
post #8963 of 9374
My SubM is on truck and out for delivery today!!

That is all.
post #8964 of 9374
FedEx says the Eagle has Landed!
Wife immediately calls to say "What the bleep have you done??!!!!"

Next challenge is how do I get it up the stairs?

Any recommendations from SubM owners with theirs on 2nd floors or down in basements?
post #8965 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinoy ako View Post

Is it okay to mix a single Sub F2 with dual JL F113? I will have a hard time selling my subs (Dubai), so im thinking to mix the two brands, seaton to cover the lower freq (20hz below)

Any comments/advise is deeply appreciated. Thanks a lot.
To integrate dual F113's with a single F2, I suggest you utilize the Geddes/Mehlau technique: http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/ You'll need measurement equipment, but you should be able to achieve a good result.

If that is more than you want to take on, I suggest you stack/co-locate the JL's and then run them as one sub, and the F2 as a 2nd sub. What receiver or pre/pro do you have?

Craig
post #8966 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdfein View Post

FedEx says the Eagle has Landed!
Wife immediately calls to say "What the bleep have you done??!!!!"

Next challenge is how do I get it up the stairs?

Any recommendations from SubM owners with theirs on 2nd floors or down in basements?

 

LOL!!  Difficult to sneak a SubM past a wife isn’t it? :)

 

You can 'roll' it upstairs in its original packing and then 'walk' it into the HT room. IIRC this is Mark's advice and how he does it.

post #8967 of 9374
Congrats and welcome to the club! I have two and my friend has two we have started a Seaton delivery and support group! Lol enjoy
post #8968 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

To integrate dual F113's with a single F2, I suggest you utilize the Geddes/Mehlau technique: http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/ You'll need measurement equipment, but you should be able to achieve a good result.

If that is more than you want to take on, I suggest you stack/co-locate the JL's and then run them as one sub, and the F2 as a 2nd sub. What receiver or pre/pro do you have?

Craig

I have Anthem D2V3D pre/pro and Antimode 8033S-II Sub EQ. I have Dayton UMM-6 Cal Mic for measurement.

Run JL as one sub, you mean I have to use the master/slave option?

Will there be no problem in the long run if I stack the subs? (considering the weight)

Thanks a lot Craig.
post #8969 of 9374
Kbarnes was spot on. "Rolling" this large box up the stairs was a manageable 1-man job. Making the 180* turn at the halfway landing was "fun" but I got the box up to the media room.

Since the wiring and cutting is still not done, I'm going to leave it boxed for protection until we get closer.

My contractor is promising the room will be ready for the game Sunday.
post #8970 of 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I had the excellent good fortune to have Mark Seaton stop by my place yesterday after the NE speaker GTG. He surprised me at the last minute and accompanied several other members, (Archaea, carp, Ironhead and Ben, who's username I didn't get), for a quick visit. We had a great time, and excellent conversation and camaraderie, as well as spending some time checking out the SubM's, the Triad Platinum speakers and the rest of my system.

We started with a classical BluRay selection that has incredible picture quality, fantastic sound quality and is just some beautiful music:



If you like classical music, and you don't have this in your collection, you need to add it: http://www.amazon.com/Lucerne-Festival-Beethoven-Rimsky-Korsakov/dp/B007N0SX2W/ref=pd_bxgy_mov_img_y

Next we watched the "Brontosaurus Stampede" and the "T-Rex Battle" scenes from King Kong. That movie has incredible surround sound and lots of strong, deep bass, (although it's not a "bottom dweller" like some other flicks.) Nonetheless, it's just an excellent demo disc. It's about 2 hours too long, but some of the CGI is absolutely the best. It nicely showed the image quality of the JVC RS-55, while the soundtrack let the SubM's and the Triads stretch their legs. We watched it at full Reference Level.

Next we watched the scene from Terminator: Salvation where the gas station blows up and the motorcycles chase the guys in the truck. This track was recorded MUCH louder than King Kong. We watched at -3 on the MVC, and that still seemed a litle too loud. Nonetheless there are some prolonged bass effects and the SubM's reproduced those without strain or compression.

We spent the rest of the day listening to music... Steely Dan, Dire Straits, Nora Jones, Nils Lofgren, Fairfield Four, Bozz Scaggs, as well as a few others.

Mark had a suggestion for my setup. He showed me how a simple 3" forward movement of my head could improve an upper bass "wooliness." I plan to move my seating forward 3" in the near future, based on this suggestion. I remember a few years back when audioguy had Mark at his place and Mark moved one of his speakers a couple of inches and Chuck said the imaging shifted into perfect place. I was skeptical at the time that such a small change could have a significant impact, but it convinced me to play around with the placement of my speakers, improving them in the process. This little tweak from Mark yesterday falls into the same category. Thanks Mark!

Afterwards we went to DMark1's place and listened to his sets of Legacy speakers. Hopefully there'll be some posts by the guys in attendance in the Legacy thread as well as this one.

Thanks again guys for coming over. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And having you bring Mark along was the icing on the cake!!!

Craig


I posted the following in the Triad's owners thread. I want to add that of course the Submersives were outstanding. I have heard a TON of subs, and owned quite a few including dual Submersives and to this day I haven't heard a Subwoofer that sounds better than the Submersive, especially for music.


Myself and a few other AVS guys were lucky enough to get a demo in Craig John's (he owns Triad Platinum's) room this last weekend. My good friend Jonathon (goes by Archaea) and I had flown out to the Philly area for a speaker GTG and were able to setup a time on Sunday to come over to Craig's house along with some other AVS friends - Mike (ironhead1230) and Ben (rush2049) and also Mark Seaton was able to make it (he was showing off his awesome Catalyst 12 speakers at the speaker GTG).

As soon as we met Craig I knew it was going to be a nice time. Very nice guy, friendly and very humble. smile.gif

His room sounded great without anything playing - I could tell right away it was treated very well. It wasn't too dead either, just right IMO.

So, he starts off playing a blu-ray concert of some classical music. Unreal!! My immediate impression was that the image on the screen was the clearest I have ever seen. The movement of the musicians looked so real and the blacks! Wow, the blacks! Beautiful contrasts. Now, full disclosure, I'm not really a videophile guy, I'm much more into audio BUT I have been in a LOT of HT rooms and I've never seen a picture so life like. Wow!

Now, on to the sound. The concert blu-ray sounded great (understatement) but I hadn't heard that before so I couldn't really compare to past experiences. Next we watched some movie clips starting with King Kong. I noticed he had the volume set to 0 so I was expecting it to be VERY loud. It was not. I've heard movie clips at and above reference many times and I can never take that volume for very long. I have VERY sensitive speakers capable of incredible dynamics in my room but still going to reference is not something I do very often because it sounds so loud. In Craig's room reference sounded perfect for King Kong. Now, later we watched scenes from Terminator Salvation at -3 and this is a much louder movie IMO but still -3 in Craig's room reminded me of more like -10 in my own.

The surround effect was equal to the best I've ever heard (Randy Bessinger's room here in Kansas City, he has Trinnov) and the dialogue crystal clear and very life like.

Now about the bass.... I have a bit of an addiction to bass. I'm currently in therapy tongue.gif for the condition but it's not going away any time soon. Did I miss the crazy bass that I have in my room during the movie demo's? Well, yes and no. Having the bass more level matched had some benefits that's for sure. It made the movie clips seem more realistic and I got lost in the movies more than I do with boosted low bass in my own room. I really liked that!

Now on to music. I listen to music A LOT in my room. I love sitting in the sweet spot and listening to stereo music and enjoying the soundstage from that spot and have spent a lot of time tweaking the exact settings of my speakers, postition of my main LP, toe in of the speakers, treatments on the walls for first reflections of each speaker as well as the ceiling half way between me and my mains, etc not to mention the constant upgrades in speakers for the past 3 years or so - oh yeah, and also eqing the subs to have just the right frequency curve that I like. I am now at the point where I like how music sounds in my room better than any room I've been in. I am not saying that I have the best speakers or my room has the best treatments or anything like that, it's just that I am used to the sound so it's what I prefer to anything I've heard - until now.

2 channel music in Craig's room is now my all time favorite. We did hear some songs I've familiar with so I can say that for sure. Why do I like it better? Here is where I fall short. I'm terrible at describing what I like about one setup over another.... all I know is the feeling I get while listening to music on a system and Craig's system does it for me.

My one regret is not bringing some heavier music over to sample. I do listen to all kinds of music now that I have some great speakers but I am a metal-head though and through. Most of it isn't recorded well, but a lot is. I would have loved to have heard any heavy bands like Metallica, Opeth, Dream Theater, Tool, Slayer, Black Sabbath etc. just to see how it compared to my room but I didn't have any of that with me.

What a cool afternoon though, Mark Seaton was spewing out advice left and right both in Craig's room and on our drive back to the airport - I think I can speak for Craig that it was so cool to have him along for the demo!

Later in the day Craig had a friend of his come over (Dennis - goes by DMark1 also a very nice guy!!) and then we went back to his place to get a demo of his Legacy Whispers. That was great too! The room wasn't as well treated but I did love a lot of the music I heard from the Whispers. I would say that the singer was more defined in the soundstage with the Whispers than I have ever experienced. It's hard to explain what I mean. The voice was more distinct from the other instruments. Another thing I noticed was that the singer was higher up than I have heard before. I'm used to the singer being right in the center right in front of me. With the Whispers it seemed the singer was not only right in front of me but also higher up. I'm not sure if I preferred this or not, but if you think about it that's pretty cool because if the singer was in the room they would be standing, and it sounded like that's where the voice was. Now, maybe I'm nuts because I asked Jonathan if he noticed this and he did not so maybe it was just me.

I also liked the bass from the Whispers. They were run full range and no subs and the bass was very good. From what I have learned about bass frequencies and the many measurements I have taken in my own room I know that the chances of the frequency response being smooth at our LP was very low, but the bass still sounded great IMO.

I did get to hear Black Sabbath's Black Sabbath and NIB and thought it sounded fantastic. I like more bass (shocker:D) but I could have listened all day. I prefer how Sabbath sounds in my room, but not by much and i was loving it! I did think that Journey sounded thin but I blame this on Audyssey - I think we had Audyssey on for Don't Stop Believing (hmmm were we listening to the Whispers at that point or the other Legacy speakers?)

Oh yeah, the Submersives in both rooms sounded fantastic. I've owned dual Submersives and heard a ton of subs and IMO it's the best sounding sub you can buy.

One more thing. My ears should have been pretty fried from all the music I heard the day before at the all day GTG and then the day before that movie and music at another AVS friends house in DC. However, I had no fatigue at all listening to either system which says a lot IMO.

Jonathan will come along and post a much better/detailed review of both rooms than mine (including videos I believe), he's much better at that than I am, but I wanted to at least put in my 2 cents.


Thanks again Craig and Dennis!
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