Looking for Digital Natural Motion or something like that

I don't know if you have already heard about the revolutionary deinterlaced system called TrimensionDNM. It was implemented by Philips and used for the first time in WinDVD 6, a few years ago. Today the tecnology has a new name: TrimensionDNM Advanced. It appeared in WinDVD 7 and now in the last version of WinDVD, the 8 version.

How it works? It's simple. Philips explain it: 'Usually, the refresh rate of the PC is higher than the frame rate of the video source. Consequently, each input frame is shown multiple times by the monitor. This repetiition of the input frames introduces an unnatural, jerky motion, wich is called motion judder in the literature. TrimensionDNM solves this fundamental problem by calculating new frames between the originals'. So, that is: you come from 24 frames per second and go with real 60 frames per second. Oh, yeah, baby! Pretty amazing, I know.

Bellow we can see an image the shows the commom problem that we have with the repetition of the pictures that seems to double the image, tremble it and decrease its definition (at left). And the solution by Philips TrimensionDNM tecnology (at right):



Believe me, the algorithm is amazing, and really works. The position of the objects of the entire scene is calculed in real-time, and you can't find any problem, even in high speed scenes (like the scene where Neo fights Morpheus, in 'The Matrix'). The most exciting thing is that all the movimentation becomes smoother and enjoyable to see. The pans (horizontal moviments of the camera) are the most beautiful thing, now with TrimensionDNM. Despite the fact that you can only use it with MPEG1 and 2 (i.e. DVDs), I can tell: if you like high FPS games you'll never want anything else; TrimensionDNM is the answer.

Here you can download a simple and small demo (579 kb) that can show the tecnology in action: http://www.trimensiontech.info/bin/T...ionDNMdemo.exe

You can also download the original video to compare with your favorite player (WMP, VLC, MPC, BsPlayer, etc.): http://www.trimension.philips.com/in...demo_room.html

Or download the new WinDVD 8 Platinum trial version and test it in real world (i.e. with your favorite DVD). To enable the TrimensionDNM you must enter in the Video Center and then enable it manually, because it came disable by default. The only problem is that the new version that is available (8.0.6.101) maybe can't allow you to enable the TrimensionDNM. But if it occours, tell me and I'll upload another version to my server. Here is the direct link from Intervideo: http://www.intervideo.com/WinDVD/WinDVD_Download.jsp

Well, to conclude, I want to say that the tecnology isn't perfect in some specific situations. I think that WinDVD is really a great player, with unique features, but I have to tell that Intervideo is lauching unstable versions, and, worse, changing week after week the build and never tell to the users. Its website also doesn't have a forum. So, what really brings me here is that I found a strange problem with overlay videos running with TrimensionDNM. If someone has 'Contact' movie, can notice that TrimensionDNM blinks the image when the little girl, at a radio, says 'I need a bigger antenna', and then a morph to Jodie Foster looking at a bigger antenna. 'Lethal Weapon 2' has the same problem in a few scenes. I've already tried to send e-mails to Intervideo talking about this problem, but they are stupid and ask for my register number - that I don't have, of course. Hey! I'm trying to help them and they don't even listen to me because I don't have bought their product. I didn't buy it, and I'll never buy until they fix it. And what really drives me crazy is that the WinDVD 6 version doesn't have this problem. However, this version has others weird behaviours with TrimensionDNM, specially when you play dark videos, that tends to be shrinked constantly.

So, if someone could test the program deeply or know something about this little problem, I would love to talk about it.

Oh! I almost forgot to say that recently I discover a player that can do similar 'motion compensate' function. The name is Crystal. It promisses to do the same thing that TrimensionDNM, BUT with any kind of video! The name of this tecnology is 'Motion Morphing'. I've already tested, but I noticed a few artefacts in some scenes. What you think, guys?

Thanks for your attention, and best regards.


P.S.: sorry for my english; my official language is portuguese.

Hmmm... The situation should be really bad, because I know that I made a lot of mistakes. But, if it make you more comfortable, I must say that here, in Brazil, the situation isn't different. It seems that the youngers don't care about anything.

Changing the subject, I'll wait for some information about the tecnology.

Thanks anyway.

Yeah! I saw it. The people that say that TrimensionDNM ruins videos (movies indeed) don't know what they're talking about. The jerky motion of the commom deinterlaced systems really sucks and don't have anything to do with the reality. I believe that what happens with these kind of people is that they don't understand how the eye works and how reality looks like. I can't believe that a inteligent and sensible guy preffer less frames than more frames. Doesn't make any sense, unless they're a very conservative people, what show that maybe they aren't very smart.

And I can't find anyone talking about these little problem that I said before. And Crystal Player seems to be a invisible ghost, hehehe.

You're saying nothing with nothing. I'm talking about the DNM tecnology, and looking for more information about it. I also said something about other program - Crystal, and I'm using arguments to prove that more FPS is obviously better than less. And if I'm a Intervideo employee, man, my marketing need to be improved really fast, because how can I sell a product that I'm criticizing?

So, what's wrong? Take it easy.

Well, you know that you can't say that looking only to my new register here, in AVS Forum.


Of course 24 FPS isn't enough, but is obvious that deinterlacing can change a lot. You can see it watching a movie in a PC and then in a TV. You won't teach me how TrimensionDNM works, I can guarantee.


No, wrong. It seems that you didn't study cinema. I did. I'm a graduate, and I can tell you that the people that make movies don't care about FPS. Most of this people (I'm still talking about the guys that make movies) even don't know what's this, and the relationship with the human eyes. Movie makers want to do a lot of things, so they change the colors of the film, the sound, physics and other things. But desire a specific FPS (i.e. 24...) I can tell you: no. Excepts for a little little strange guys, 24 FPS is good because is cheaper, because everyone do in this way (since the begining of the cinema) and because no one reclaim about it because this people can't even notice any difference, including movie makers. But there's a 'tecnology diretors' that are telling amazing things, like James Cameron, that seems to want more than 100 FPS!


I want widescreen, of course. If I don't have it, so I want the two little black targes, so they keep the original data. Ironically, you're talking about same thing, but with two different approachs. You're talking about lose data, so I am! Think about it. And, please, don't repeat that skeeping record 'looks like this because it was desired', because you can't prove it and you didn't study cinema.


Thanks for your feedback. I really want to see the new WinDVD with full working TrimensionDNM. Even better: Crystal Player without artefacts!

[]'s!

Sorry if I can't make it clear. I was talking about watching a movie in PC or TV. You can notice a big difference in pams, don't you?


Yep. DNM solves two problems: deinterlacing and 24 not enough FPS.



Ok. I respect your opinion. But, please, don't tell me that movie makers choose 24 FPS because they think about it and want it, and if they want more FPS they will do it. It's a ingenuous thought.


I think that DNM is amazing bacause it solves the problems with film costs, lighting, exposure, transport, etc. and, further, brings more proximity to the reality.


Hmmmm... Maybe my poor english dificults the comprehension. Sorry. What I mean is this: you ask me 'do you prefer more of your screen filled or less?', so I thought that you asked it because you thought that I would say 'more'. But I understood that your point is: the director filmed in 16:9 because he wanted it. So, full screen will loose data. But I think that 24 FPS loose data too, because, besides reality doesn't have FPS, it's obvious that 60 FPS are more closer to the reality than 24 FPS. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Yeah. You're right. I already know it. Sorry if I can't make myself clear. You know my 'little' problem writing in english.

But what I think about DNM is that it doesn't make mistakes in motion estimation. Well, I haven't see it until now (except for the WinDVD bugs, I mean, hehehe).


I think that movie theaters still have problems. One is the already talked 24 not enough FPS. The second is that you have to close the shutter too many times to avoid the seeing of each frame transition, and this process causes some flicker.


Well, I think that we all know that deinterlacing has nothing to do with the FPS of a movie. What I'm saying is that TrimensionDNM solves two problems (in my point of view): increase the FPS (with real new FPS, created by motion estimation) and avoid the jerky motion that occurs when the TV/monitor has a refresh rate higher than the framerate (because DNM sets the FPS to be equal to the refresh rate).

I think you aren't completely right. What I know is that repeat a frame causes jerky motion. And, wow, a CRT display that run at 24 Hz will blind everyone.


See what I said to knutinh.


Cool.


Hmmmm... DNM only increases the FPS through the motion estimation tecnology. Everything else is only a matter of subjective interpretation, no? I can't see DNM changing exposure or lighting. Do you?


Yeah. You're right. But now you know that this isn't the main reason why a movie is filmed at 24 FPS.



Lose data when compared to the reality. You can say the same thing about sound. Imagine a film that can't record nothing below 1 KHz and nothing above 15 KHz. It'll be a piece of s... Let's be honest and agree that 24 FPS isn't really a choice. If common people could perceive 60 FPS, and the increase of the frame rate wouldn't so difficult (expensive), it'll be done in almost all movies.

Hehehehe. Yeah. I studied Cinema for almost four years, and, believe me, I never saw a single discussion about the actual frame rate. Not even a teacher or a text saying something about it. I also met a few directors and talk about this issue, but they haven't enough information to tell something solid.

BTW, maybe you wanted to say 'for all we know, he didn't lament', no?

Man, I promisse that I'll get the 'Saving Private Ryan' in DVD to test with TrimensionDNM. After that I'll come here to tell my impressions (maybe with some samples). Thanks for you patience.

[]'s!

Thanks, man. I don't think that we're fighting here, but I'll do that search, for sure.


Well, besides the fact that the 24 FPS are the standard model for so many years, we have to remember that the Cinema already increased the FPS. In the first begining of this science, 12 FPS was the highest framerate possible, then 16-18 FPS, and so 24 FPS, that we have today. Maybe one day it'll change, I agree. But we have to remember that the actual framerate are very close to what the common people can perceive. Have you tried to show the difference between 30 and 60 FPS to common people (that are not familiar with games, overclocks, video tecnology, army planes, etc.)? Well, I tried, and the result was very frustrating, because most of these people swear to me that there's no difference. IMO, this fact is the main reason why TrimensionDNM and similar tecnologies don't make a incredible sucess. The other reason is that not everyone like it, even knowing and seeing it (as we can see here).


Hmmmm... I don't think that the problem has anything to do with my CPU, because I have a Sempron 3000+ overclocked to real 2.6 Ghz. TrimensionDNM never uses more than 50% of this processor. And I already tested with other machines. So, my vote goes to the layer problem.


I can write the problems that I see in TrimensionDNM, but I think that I already do it in the first post. But, anyway, I'll write a PM to you just to make it really clear.

[]'s!