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Oppo Digital DV-981HD FAQ/Brain Dump - Page 83

post #2461 of 5209
2/25/07 at 4:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph MAK View Post

A while ago, I reported that there wasn't Green Push from my 981HD.

This was my experience until I put up the AVIA's Gray Bars!

First, just let me detail my set up:

I have my 981HD connected to a Mits HC3100 DLP front projector, through HDMI and S-video connections. I also have a Panny RP82 player connected to the HC3100 through Component and S-video connections. Each connection was calibrated in Colour, Brightness, Contrast, using AVIA. It turned out the calibrated settings for all the sources (981HD's HDMI, 981HD's S-video, RP82's Component, RP82's S-video) were all the same.

Colour Temperature in the HC3100 was set to 6500K for all sources. Then I examined the AVIA's Gray Bars. The result was Gray Bars from the 981HD's HDMI output looked GREENER than the other 3 outputs. Gray Bars from 981HD's S-video, RP82's Component and RP82's S-video outputs looked the same to my naked eyes. Indeed, the Grayscale output from these three sources looked closer to 6500K.

720P and 480P HDMI outputs looked the same. No differecne at all, both have Green Push.

Now, I suspect indeed there is something wrong in the HDMI connection: Either the 981HD's HDMI output has Green Push or the Mits HC3100's HDMI input exaggerates the Green. Since I don't have other DVD players with an HDMI output, I am not able to track down whether the 981HD or the HC3100 is the culprit.

I am asking other 981HD owners to compare Gray Bars output from the 981HD's HDMI and S-video connections. Do you see Green Push from the HDMI's output as compared to its own S-video output.

JM, you say "Colour Temperature in the HC3100 was set to 6500K for all sources". Rather than doing a proper grayscale calibration, adjusting RGB gains and offsets on all inputs using a colorimeter to get D65 accuracy, you are relying on an internal HC3100 "feature". This could be one problem.

When comparing the HDMI and analog outputs from other players, I see tiny hints of color in the Avia bars on ALL the players. This is mostly due to poor grayscale tracking in the display. But the 981's HDMI output can shift the tints to different bars (possibly related to macroblock-enhance). A better test, is to use the gray ramp patterns. (Unfortunately, the Avia gray ramps are pretty ugly - DVE's ramps are much cleaner). In these ramps, you can clearly see the effects of minor color banding from all of your players, and how that banding shifts around with different player outputs. The 981 does not make the gray ramp green on my displays.

Gary
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post #2462 of 5209
2/25/07 at 6:04am
I'm still dealing with a green push. I just bought another player to compare, Pioneer DV-696AV. Both connected with HDMI and calibrated with DVE. I first set the Pioneer with colorspace to component. The Oppo 981 is set to RGB. Is component the same as YCbC 4:4:4? Well, comparing the two shows that the Oppo 981 has a green push. It doesn't show white properly white. The Pioneer looked better with still pictures. I then set the colorspace to RGB with the Pioneer and calibrated it again. When I compared this time, I'm wondering if the the difference was less, but I'm not sure. But I still saw a green push with Oppo 981 that I didn't see with the Pioneer DV-696AV.

After this testing, I almost 100% sure that the green push is caused by the Oppo 981 and not my Panasonic PV600 plasma.
And another thing; if component is the same as YCbC, why does the Oppo 981 give me a major green push with component and the Pioneer looks great?

The Pioneer also has an option that's called full range RGB. Is this the same as RGB enhanced? I have not made a comparison with these.
I also swapped the movies in the players in case there were a difference with them, but I got the same result. The movies were in PAL.

I have mailed Oppo about it. I really hope they can find a solution. I wondering though why others aren't seeing the green push. Could it be a case only with PAL?
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post #2463 of 5209
2/25/07 at 6:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

I wondering though why others aren't seeing the green push. Could it be a case only with PAL?

I don't know, but I often see excessive green on European (mostly British) TV titles. These are NTSC discs, but I presume they were orignally PAL. I see the effect with both the 971 and 981. I have wondered if there is some sort of systematic error in the way PAL discs are translated to NTSC. I don't know about PAL native discs; I have only three and they are of only modest quality.

I could be the Oppos are not handling the PAL color system correctly. But: does DVE come in a PAL version? GetGray does if you need a PAL calibration disc.

-Bill
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post #2464 of 5209
2/25/07 at 6:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

I don't know, but I often see excessive green on European (mostly British) TV titles. These are NTSC discs, but I presume they were orignally PAL. I see the effect with both the 971 and 981. I have wondered if there is some sort of systematic error in the way PAL discs are translated to NTSC. I don't know about PAL native discs; I have only three and they are of only modest quality.

I could be the Oppos are not handling the PAL color system correctly. But: does DVE come in a PAL version? GetGray does if you need a PAL calibration disc.

-Bill

The discs I have used when I compared the Oppo 981 to Pioneer 696 are native PAL.
Yes, DVE comes in PAL. GetGray may be better then DVE, but it doesn't solve this. The fact is that the Oppo gives me a green push which the Pioneer doesn't. I'm so frustrated with this player.
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post #2465 of 5209
2/25/07 at 6:44am
omholt, how can you test the OPPO 981 via component, when there isn't a component out, just HDMI?
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post #2466 of 5209
2/25/07 at 7:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Butler View Post

omholt, how can you test the OPPO 981 via component, when there isn't a component out, just HDMI?

I haven't. I'm talking about setting the colorspace with the Pioneer to component. I believe component is the same as YCbCr 4:4:4.
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post #2467 of 5209
2/25/07 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSB View Post

The Faroudja FLI23xx datasheet contains block diagrams and details that clearly separate the de-interlacing from the scaling. The signal is fed from one block to the next, in the following sequence:
  1. Front End Processor - converts all inputs into 16-bit YU/V 4:2:2 format, which is the internal signal processing format for all signals.
  2. Noise Reducer and Cross Color Suppressor.
  3. Deinterlacer - 480i becomes 480p, 576i becomes 576p, etc.
  4. Frame Rate Converter - changes the vertical refresh rate of the display if required (NTSC/PAL, etc).
  5. Scaler - Vertical then Horizontal scaling processes.
  6. TrueLife Enhancer - Vertical then Horizontal enhancers.
  7. Output Back End Processor - color space converter, digital outputs, analog output DACs, and timing control (sync generation).
No detail is given about how the 1080i output is constructed, but it has received lengthy discussion and criticism in the past. One interesting spec - it has an identical output data-rate of 74.25MHz for 540p, 720p and 1080i, whereas the 1080p data-rate is 148.5MHz.

Gary

Excellent! Where did you find the datasheet? I wonder why the data rate doubles only for the 1080p. Sounds like one this for sure is that the scaling is implemented seperately from the deinterlacing. Nice find.

Thanks
Rich
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post #2468 of 5209
2/25/07 at 5:49pm
[quote=omholt] why does the Oppo 981 give me a major green push with component and the Pioneer looks great?

QUOTE]

omholt,

I have a similar issue with my 981HD. See my post at #2436 for details. I would say the Green Push in my case is slight but noticeable (after I tweaked the Grayscale), rather than "major". I would probably not noticing it without A/B comparing.

When I put up the Avia's Graybars, the 981HD HDMI's output looks Greener than its own S-video's output. Would you mind to do such a comparison and report back your finding?

JM
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post #2469 of 5209
2/25/07 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

What happens when you enable RGB as the color matrix from the DV-981HD (General Setup). Does this enhance, inhibit, or keep the green push at the same levels.

What if you alter the controls on the DVD player (contrast and brightness) a couple of clicks up and down?


Altering the contrast and brightness controls on my 981HD didn't solve the Green Push problem. I was using firmware 01227B in the test and hence haven't tried the RGB option. Will try the beta firmware, but I do not expect it could solve the problem since Green Push exists in both 480P and 720P HDMI outputs.


I came across a review on a Sony player and the reviewer has posted screen shots from the Sony's component output and HDMI output. Component output from a Pioneer player was also included in the comparison. Apparently all souces have been calibrated using THX discs.


Sony DVPNS76H review


If you follow the above link, you may notice that there was Green Push in the Sony's HDMI 720P and 1080i outputs, as compared to the Sony's component output and Pioneer's component output The extent of Green Push was very much the same as what I have experienced on my 981HD HDMI output vs its S-video output, Panny RP82's component ouput and S-video output, before I tweaked the Grayscale by eyes. After the HDMI Grayscale tweak, I managed to alleviate the Green Push by a lot.

Well, this make me feel a little better.

Any expert would like to chime in?

I urge 981HD owners to compare Graybars output from the 981HD's HDMI output and its own S-video output and report their observation.

JM
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post #2470 of 5209
2/26/07 at 12:58am
[quote=Joseph MAK]
Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

why does the Oppo 981 give me a major green push with component and the Pioneer looks great?

QUOTE]

omholt,

I have a similar issue with my 981HD. See my post at #2436 for details. I would say the Green Push in my case is slight but noticeable (after I tweaked the Grayscale), rather than "major". I would probably not noticing it without A/B comparing.

When I put up the Avia's Graybars, the 981HD HDMI's output looks Greener than its own S-video's output. Would you mind to do such a comparison and report back your finding?

JM

Upgrading to the beta firmware may solve it for you. Before I upgraded, I had a terrible green push. I did then a comparison between S-video and HDMI.

After upgrading and setting the colorspace to RGB most of the green push was gone. I still saw some but expected that to be the grayscale of my screen. Now I have compared the Oppo 981 to another HDMI player with upscaling, and it seems like the last part of green push is caused by the Oppo.
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post #2471 of 5209
2/26/07 at 7:31am
HELP !!! Am currently having problems w/Sony KDS-50A2000, Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXsi, and my new Oppo 981.
When I try to use the 1080P resolution, the t.v. screen goes to a blank "hot lavender" colored screen. I then have to cycle through the other resolutions to get back and use 1080i. Have tried sw'ing cables, diff. input, color res., even direct connect to t.v. w/no success. Tried all I read about hear that even remotely could help, but to no avail.
Just saw some updates mentioned for the Pioneer Elites, is my problem one that sounds like an issue that these updates addresses ???
Haven't actually seen any threads on "my" issue.

Why can't I enjoy my new Oppo in 1080P??
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post #2472 of 5209
2/26/07 at 10:05am
I have my 981 hooked up for a couple of days now to my Panasonic Th-50PX500U plasma TV. The picture is excellent but I had to work through a couple of issues. First off I had the green push problem. Updating the firmware to the beta release and selecting RGB color space solved it, though I still have a very very subtle, and occasional, green tint evident on dark eyebrows, dark hair in a dimly lit room and dark skin also in a dimly lit environment. What is more puzzling is having to boost contrast on the player to +13 out of a maximum 16 and increase my plasma's brightness control from +12 to +15 otherwise low lighting scenes are too dark with major detail loss. I did not have this issue with my previous Sony DVP-NS900V player at 480P into component inputs. The 1080i setting seems to work best with my set with the 720P setting looking a little too soft.
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post #2473 of 5209
2/26/07 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by willcycle View Post

I have my 981 hooked up for a couple of days now to my Panasonic Th-50PX500U plasma TV. The picture is excellent but I had to work through a couple of issues. First off I had the green push problem. Updating the firmware to the beta release and selecting RGB color space solved it, though I still have a very very subtle, and occasional, green tint evident on dark eyebrows, dark hair in a dimly lit room and dark skin also in a dimly lit environment. What is more puzzling is having to boost contrast on the player to +13 out of a maximum 16 and increase my plasma's brightness control from +12 to +15 otherwise low lighting scenes are too dark with major detail loss. I did not have this issue with my previous Sony DVP-NS900V player at 480P into component inputs. The 1080i setting seems to work best with my set with the 720P setting looking a little too soft.

Seems very similar to what I have with my Panasonic 42PV600. RGB solved much of the green push, but after comparing to two other players I noticed that there is still some green tint. I also have to use very high values of contrast and brightness.
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post #2474 of 5209
2/26/07 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

Seems very similar to what I have with my Panasonic 42PV600. RGB solved much of the green push, but after comparing to two other players I noticed that there is still some green tint. I also have to use very high values of contrast and brightness.

I have the 981 connected to my Panasonic plasma 50PH9UK and I do not see anything I would call "green push" as described here. I wonder why that is? I do not have the beta FW so I am using YCrCb colorspace with no problems at all. I connect via HDMI at 1080i.

I don't remember all my settings, but I remember the following:

Standard Mode
Color temp = WARM (very important)
picture = 17
brightness = 5
color = 0
tint = 1
sharpness = 0
black enhance off
input level = 0 (sometimes I set this to 5 to make 235 white max brightness)

W/B controls have been extensively adjusted during grayscale calibration, but this will be different for each monitor so not useful to report mine unless someone wants them for comparison. btw, these controls make a *big* difference, but you need a colorimeter and calibration software to use them right.

Gama = 2.5
Agc = off

3:2 detection = off
Noise suppression = on (IMPORTANT)

On the 981 I have just the defaults 0 for everything, Truelife on, noise suppression off, CCS off.

-Rich
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post #2475 of 5209
2/26/07 at 4:58pm
Is there anyone who recognizes any of these symptoms that I've listed up in my original post ? The resolutions of 480P, 720P, and 1080i seem to work fine. You all seem to be light years ahead of most people I've spoken to about this. Please help. I just ordered the Beta update, we'll see what that might do.
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post #2476 of 5209
2/26/07 at 5:52pm
What should I set my players RGB setting to? Also, I have begun to notice macroblocking/artifacts on the blue oppo screen. What are the ways that I can combat macro on my samsung lcd? I'm not the most technically experienced, so a more lay explanation of what to do would help a lot.

Thanks
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post #2477 of 5209
2/26/07 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamaha450 View Post

Is there anyone who recognizes any of these symptoms that I've listed up in my original post ? The resolutions of 480P, 720P, and 1080i seem to work fine. You all seem to be light years ahead of most people I've spoken to about this. Please help.

Like you, I'm no major techie like those above but even though your Sony is 1080p, it may not accept the freq/Hz of the 981 at 1080p. My Pio Elite will accept 1080p as well but also goes blank when I select 1080p on my 981..

-The Pio Elite only accepts 1080p@24Hz (all other resolutions @60Hz)

-The 981 outputs 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p @60Hz

This may be your issue as well...
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post #2478 of 5209
2/26/07 at 11:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranaing83 View Post

What should I set my players RGB setting to? Also, I have begun to notice macroblocking/artifacts on the blue oppo screen. What are the ways that I can combat macro on my samsung lcd? I'm not the most technically experienced, so a more lay explanation of what to do would help a lot.

Preferably set "RGB Range" to "Normal" (default), but if your display expects PC RGB like a computer monitor, then set it to "Enhanced".

The OPPO splash screen is highly compressed, and shows macroblocks just like a heavily compressed JPEG photo. The effect can be minimized to a large degree, but cannot be eliminated. See this post: Suppressing the Faroudja Macroblock-Enhance Bug.

Gary
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post #2479 of 5209
2/27/07 at 12:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

I have the 981 connected to my Panasonic plasma 50PH9UK and I do not see anything I would call "green push" as described here. I wonder why that is?

That's because the 981 does not suffer with "green push" as some seem to think... it is usually a problem with the display (an incorrect colorspace or a badly calibrated grayscale). Random tints of green can also be caused by macroblocking or by the DVD encoding itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

W/B controls have been extensively adjusted during grayscale calibration, but this will be different for each monitor so not useful to report mine unless someone wants them for comparison. btw, these controls make a *big* difference, but you need a colorimeter and calibration software to use them right.

There you go. A properly calibrated grayscale eliminates any color "push" and makes a world of difference to your viewing experience.

Gary
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post #2480 of 5209
2/27/07 at 12:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by willcycle View Post

I have my 981 hooked up for a couple of days now to my Panasonic Th-50PX500U plasma TV. The picture is excellent but I had to work through a couple of issues. First off I had the green push problem. Updating the firmware to the beta release and selecting RGB color space solved it, though I still have a very very subtle, and occasional, green tint evident on dark eyebrows, dark hair in a dimly lit room and dark skin also in a dimly lit environment.

Random tints of green can be caused by macroblocking or by the DVD encoding itself. See this post: Unnatural Artifacts Encoded in Many DVD's.
And this one: Suppressing the Faroudja Macroblock-Enhance Bug, and be sure to follow the link to the "Samsung DLP Calibration Crash-Course".
Quote:
Originally Posted by willcycle View Post

What is more puzzling is having to boost contrast on the player to +13 out of a maximum 16 and increase my plasma's brightness control from +12 to +15 otherwise low lighting scenes are too dark with major detail loss. I did not have this issue with my previous Sony DVP-NS900V player at 480P into component inputs. The 1080i setting seems to work best with my set with the 720P setting looking a little too soft.

Adjusting the player's Brightness and Contrast settings is a bad idea, unless you are forced to share an HDMI port, or it becomes impossible to adjust your display. If you run out of adjustment on your display, it is possible that the display is expecting PC RGB. Then, and ONLY then, should you set the RGB Range to "Enhanced". Try adjusting the display again. To get the most out of your display, it is very important to use a calibration disk to set the display settings correctly.

Remember that HDMI and component inputs are ENTIRELY different circuits on your display, and they require entirely separate calibrations.

Gary
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post #2481 of 5209
2/27/07 at 12:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamaha450 View Post

HELP !!! Am currently having problems w/Sony KDS-50A2000, Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXsi, and my new Oppo 981.
When I try to use the 1080P resolution, the t.v. screen goes to a blank "hot lavender" colored screen. I then have to cycle through the other resolutions to get back and use 1080i. Have tried sw'ing cables, diff. input, color res., even direct connect to t.v. w/no success. Tried all I read about hear that even remotely could help, but to no avail.
Just saw some updates mentioned for the Pioneer Elites, is my problem one that sounds like an issue that these updates addresses ???
Haven't actually seen any threads on "my" issue.

Why can't I enjoy my new Oppo in 1080P??

The Sony KDS-50A2000 does accept 1080p inputs. Have you loaded the latest OPPO firmware that fixed an HDMI handshake issue? Have you tried connecting the OPPO directly to the TV? Some receivers and/or switchers cause problems with HDMI equipment.

Gary
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post #2482 of 5209
2/27/07 at 1:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph MAK View Post

If you follow the above link, you may notice that there was Green Push in the Sony's HDMI 720P and 1080i outputs, as compared to the Sony's component output and Pioneer's component output The extent of Green Push was very much the same as what I have experienced on my 981HD HDMI output vs its S-video output, Panny RP82's component ouput and S-video output, before I tweaked the Grayscale by eyes. After the HDMI Grayscale tweak, I managed to alleviate the Green Push by a lot.

Well, this make me feel a little better.

Any expert would like to chime in?

I urge 981HD owners to compare Graybars output from the 981HD's HDMI output and its own S-video output and report their observation.

The gray bars on the HDMI, component and S-Video inputs on my TV's all looked different until I calibrated them to look the same! Your experience sounds much the same. You have done a grayscale calibration "by eye", which can make a huge improvement, but to get identical D65 gray for all inputs, requires a colorimeter and calibration software.

Gary
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post #2483 of 5209
2/27/07 at 1:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

I first set the Pioneer with colorspace to component. The Oppo 981 is set to RGB. Is component the same as YCbC 4:4:4? Well, comparing the two shows that the Oppo 981 has a green push. It doesn't show white properly white. The Pioneer looked better with still pictures. I then set the colorspace to RGB with the Pioneer and calibrated it again. When I compared this time, I'm wondering if the the difference was less, but I'm not sure. But I still saw a green push with Oppo 981 that I didn't see with the Pioneer DV-696AV.

omholt, component is not the same as YCbCr. You have said that you use very high values of contrast and brightness with the player. Something is not right with your calibration process. What "still pictures" are you using to compare the players? You should only be using test-patterns on a calibration disk to give you accurate and repeatable results. The OPPO's RGB mode has got you close, but that last little bit of green tint can only be removed by using a calibration disk and doing a full D65 grayscale calibration on the display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

The Pioneer also has an option that's called full range RGB. Is this the same as RGB enhanced?

Perhaps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

I wondering though why others aren't seeing the green push. Could it be a case only with PAL?

I do not have a PAL calibration disk, or PAL TV shows on DVD, but I have a few PAL movies, and I do not see "green push" in any of them.

Gary
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post #2484 of 5209
2/27/07 at 4:15am
Gary,

Why are adjusting brightness and contrast on the Oppo a bad idea? The Oppo is my only HDMI source and the picture is excellent the way I have it set now. I did use Avia but tweaked the settings to my taste.

Will
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post #2485 of 5209
2/27/07 at 5:21am
good
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post #2486 of 5209
2/27/07 at 6:27am
I just received the 981 about a week ago, hooked it up to my Sony Bravia 52 xbr3 through HDMI, and notice a little bit of a green push as well as a little bit of macroblocking. I have adjusted the settings on the display, and I still notice it. I have not calibrated my display yet, what disk would be the best for me to use?
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post #2487 of 5209
2/27/07 at 6:38am
Mine is supposed to arrive today, however as I don't have an HDTV yet I won't really be able to test if there is a little green showing.
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post #2488 of 5209
2/27/07 at 7:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSB View Post

omholt, component is not the same as YCbCr. You have said that you use very high values of contrast and brightness with the player. Something is not right with your calibration process. What "still pictures" are you using to compare the players? You should only be using test-patterns on a calibration disk to give you accurate and repeatable results. The OPPO's RGB mode has got you close, but that last little bit of green tint can only be removed by using a calibration disk and doing a full D65 grayscale calibration on the display.
Perhaps.
I do not have a PAL calibration disk, or PAL TV shows on DVD, but I have a few PAL movies, and I do not see "green push" in any of them.

Gary

With still pictures I meant pausing a movie I have. It's a native PAL movie. I believe what I'm dealing with is a combination of greyscale and the 981. I also compared the Pioneer 696 to my older Pioneer 454 which is connectes with scart/rgb. I then saw a little bit of green as well, but very subtle. The main sinner though seems to be the Oppo 981. Again, a direct comparison between Pioneer 696 and Oppo 981 showed this. It's not major, but enough that's irritating me.

A greyscale calibration may solve it for me, but I'm not sure if I want the input to be calibrated perfectly with the Oppo since it seems like the colors with the Oppo are not correct. I guess I have to live with this problem till I buy a blue-ray/HD- DVD that can replace the 981. It's not likely that I will buy a Oppo product again.
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post #2489 of 5209
2/27/07 at 7:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarki View Post

I just received the 981 about a week ago, hooked it up to my Sony Bravia 52 xbr3 through HDMI, and notice a little bit of a green push as well as a little bit of macroblocking. I have adjusted the settings on the display, and I still notice it. I have not calibrated my display yet, what disk would be the best for me to use?

Regarding green tint, there are interesting comments developing here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811724. This is from broadcast, not DVD, but they use the same mpeg-2 compression techniques.

Here is my standard advice on calibration discs for those who have never used one:

The easiest way to start is with the THX Optimzer, which can be found in the setup section of THX Certified disks (there's a logo on the disk case, or see the entire list here: http://thx.com/home/dvd/search.html). When adjusting color it is handy to have the blue filter glasses available for $2 + shipping from http://costore.com/thx/productenlarg...=87&pid=930793.

There are more advanced calibration disks. I use GetGray from http://www.calibrate.tv/. You have to download it and burn your own DVD, and you need the filter glasses mentioned above. Easy to use, no nonsense.

Avia and Digital Video Esstentials are popular. I have them, but find the navigation clumsy and have not spent much time with them yet. They are loaded with tutorial and informercial material, and are available from Amazon.

I have not seen the Monster/ISF disk, but have heard that it uses video clips instead of test patterns. It might be best for a non-technical user.

There is a calibration forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=139

-Bill
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post #2490 of 5209
2/27/07 at 7:19am
Bill, thanks for the quick reply.
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