When are the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD receivers coming?

We'll know more from CES in about a month. Until then, it's just guessing.

Though I hate to buy anothe reciever, I want one that will decode the new formats as well and allow microphone calibration. So, I'm with you on wanting to hear some news.

And what will actually output to them? I gather pretty much no HD DVDs will allow bitstream export - what about Blu-ray?

For sure?

Nope.

I'm sure there will be more to come.........

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=4
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November 30, 2006
HDMI 1.3 comes to 1080p audio products in 2007
By Dennis P. Barker

This week I spent some time at D&M Holdings (Umbrella Company of Denon and Marantz among other companies) headquarters in NJ as they gave select journalists a pre-CES 2007 preview. Much like the Ghost of Christmas Future in Dickens' A Christmas Carol. OK. You ask what does this have to do with Digital TV? Well, they realize that to fully appreciate 1080p and HDTV, you need good audio. And, not just good audio, but audio and that also includes video processing and scaling.

Denon currently holds the number 2 share in Receivers/Amps/Tuners (at 19.1-percent for 2006 up from 17.1-percent in 2005) behind Sony. Denon's vision of the future of the Connect Home is that the AV Receiver is the central device that controls and processes all signals coming into the home. In, a sense, it's a true A/V media server. The first message that Denon wanted to impart was the fact that all of its AV Receivers in 2007, which are scheduled for mid-year introduction will include HDMI version 1.3. As well, these receivers will support 36-bit Deep Color, and 1080p pass-thru. Depending on the specific receiver model, select devices will include video processing by Silicon Optix, Faroudja, and Analog Devices. And, high-end models include DolbyTrue HD, and DTS Master HD surround sound decoding. Several models will include Dolby Digital Plus processing.
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Presentation about HDMI v1.3:
http://www.hdmi.org/download/press_k...ppt#544,1,HDMI 1.3 Preview the Future of HD

Does it matter?

If my understanding is correct, the players will do the decoding to PCM, and our receivers can do bass management, 7.1 surround processing, EQ, etc.

The only reason the similar situation w/DD and DTS being decoded in DVD players wasn't good was that they didn't have all the functionality and put out analog with perhaps not so good DAC's.

Neither the new Sony BD nor the Pioneer BD players decode the Dolby True HD or DTS HD to PCM!

Since both of these companies make AVR's, I'm sure they will be very happy when you must upgrade your AVR to get these HD audio codecs...

First, understand that the new lossless codecs are simply ways to pack the high res LPCM audio streams into smaller space on the disc. The "normal", unpacked LPCM audio track on the disc is identical in quality to the TrueHD version that results from packing that same bandwidth of LPCM. You are trading the cost of extra processing power (the encoder in the studio and the decoder in the home) against the cost of chewing up more space on the disc.

This is DIFFERENT from the lossy encoding used in standard DVDs where the choices made in the codec design, and how the studios use them, can make for difference in quality. I.e., where the codecs themselves color the audio.

What TrueHD and the others do allow for is a HIGHER quality LPCM to be packed into the SAME space that would be taken up by a lower quality unpacked LPCM. But this is only relevant if the LPCM packed into the TrueHD audio track is ACTUALLY higher bandwidth to begin with! I.e., if the studio made a separate, higher quality audio track prior to packing it.

Again: There is nothing magical about the new lossless codecs that insures higher quality on any given disc compared to the unpacked LPCM audio track. All that matters is whether the studio made a separate, higher quality track to be packed up that way.

Second, understand that these new format players enable something called the "advanced content" feature set. Disc makers have the choice of authoring their discs for advanced content or not. The advanced content feature set includes various forms of audio overlay such as menu sound effects, comment tracks, and language switching that only involves swapping out the center channel.

MOST commercial discs today are authored in the "advanced content" mode and that is likely to continue into the future.

Now here's the kicker: Discs authored in the "advanced content" mode *MUST* have their audio codecs decoded INSIDE THE PLAYER regardless of what type of HDMI link is used or what the receiver might also be able to do in terms of decoding. The audio has to be decoded inside the player so that the player can implement the "advanced" audio features. This is true whether or not the user is actually using any of those features at the moment.

Thus you have Pioneer, for example, saying that it will do a firmware update early next year to add the missing codecs to its Blue Ray player. They don't need them right now because the number of discs with packed audio tracks that are actually of higher quality than the "normal" unpacked LPCM track is minimal and leaving the codecs out right now meant they could ship the player sooner. However they will need the codecs *IN THE PLAYER* next year when studios start releasing higher quality packed tracks as a matter of course.

Meanwhile, manufacturers will indeed be adding decoders to their new (HDMI V1.3 or higher) receivers as well. Why? Simple. Any time there is a new feature, the manufacturers try to find ways to get you to pay for it multiple times even if there is no real, added advantage to the user. That's why you will pay for video de-interlacing, for example, in your TV *AND* in your progressive DVD player *AND* in you cable TV set top box *AND* in your scaling receiver. If the TV's de-interlacer was built right you wouldn't need any of the others. Ka-ching!

There will be cases where people can actually take advantage of such audio decoders in their new receiver. But for most people playing most commercial discs, to get to the (possibly) higher quality audio packed in say a TrueHD track, you will need A PLAYER that can decode that track.
--Bob

Excellent discussion of these HD codecs Bob....
"The "normal", unpacked LPCM audio track on the disc is identical in quality to the TrueHD version that results from packing that same bandwidth of LPCM."

Is this the case for HD DVD also? I was not aware of the fact that is already exists in an unpacked format and that the HD is simply a packed version...until the studios start adding a higher bandwidth HD that would make it more valuable.

So, Pioneer is going to be adding this ability to decode HD? How about Sony? I have not read anything from either that supports that but seems likely. But if not, the new HDMI 1.3 AVR will do the HD codecs, correct?

Like you say, probably both the players and the AVRs will have the ability to do that with HDMI 1.3.

Again, thanks for the comments...appreciate your sharing your knowledge. Being a J6P guy it helps the understanding and purchasing decisions.

I believe only Blue Ray is currently including the unpacked LPCM as the "normal" option, but frankly I haven't been following that part of it that closely.

For HD-DVD that means the player needs to have at least one decoder.

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The latest info I have is that the Pioneer player is supposed to get missing codecs in an April firmware release. I don't know how firm that date is, but it makes sense.

I would expect the Sony player to follow suit.

Again you aren't missing anything until studios start packing higher bandwidth LPCM into, say TrueHD tracks than is currently already shipped on Blue Ray discs as LPCM now.

The Samsung player, on the other hand, will, as I understand it, be "retired". I don't think anyone expects the codecs to show up in new software for that player -- only in a new player. And yes that means folks who bought that player get the shaft.

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The HDMI V1.3 AVRs will only be able to decode codec tracks shipped on discs that are *NOT* authored in the "advanced content" mode.

As I said, it seems highly likely that the vast majority of all commercial discs will be authored as "advanced content" discs.
--Bob

"Neither the new Sony BD nor the Pioneer BD players decode the Dolby True HD or DTS HD to PCM!"

Do the Toshiba HD-DVD players ahve the decoders?

Thanks

For TrueHD it does

The Toshiba HD-DVD players include decoding for Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD. They don't do DTS-HD MA yet, but that capability is coming to the HD-A2 and HD-XA2 in a firmware update. No word yet on whether that capability is also coming to the A1.

The Sony PS3 is the only Blu-ray player with Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD decoding. It too is slated to receive DTS-HD MA decoding with a software update next year. Panasonic has also promised this functionality with a software update coming next year. The Sony and Pioneer BD players do not offer decoding for these formats, nor have they promised to add that functionality with a software update.

So how long is it before we get a disc with both TrueHD and HD-MA soundtracks, and people start arguing about which sounds better?

With all the clamoring for HDMI 1.3 and format decoding in the receiver, the above fact can't be repeated often enough. Unless something changes dramatically from the current pattern of authoring, things like format recognition and decoding look like they're going to be done in the player for the near future.

Sanjay

I would note that no current Blu-ray titles are considered "advanced content" disks. Current Blu-ray titles are authored in basic HDMV and will output their codecs over HDMI 1.3 -- they don't have any advanced content (such as pip or video commentary) that requires mixing in the player. This lack of said titles is due primarily to the fact that interactive authoring tools on Blu-ray still lack maturity, especially compared to their HD-DVD counterparts.

You will see the first "advanced" Blu-ray titles that require in-player audio mixing in 2007.

2-3 years.

Don't many Blu-ray titles have linear PCM soundtracks, which can be transmitted via HDMI 1.1?
Once Blu-ray goes interactive, as you say in 2007, what do you think the norm will be: decoding in the player or receiver?

Sanjay

Sony and Disney use LPCM tracks on many of their titles, yes. You get that audio through both HDMI and 5.1/7.1 analog output today.

FOX uses 24/48 DTS-HD MA on its titles, and because they are authored with HDMV basic, future BD players with HDMI 1.3 can output that audio to a future HDMI 1.3 receiver for decoding.


I don't expect to see more than a handful of these titles before late 2007. It's too early to predict how common these titles will become. However, the existence of these titles will require CE manufacturers to offer decoding in their players. In other words, HDMI 1.3 doesn't eliminate the need for manufacturers to include decoders in their players.

The only reason I really want the hdmi 1.3 is for tv. I have seen a couple of manufacturers talking about dolby digital plus for broadcast tv. It packs smaller and sounds better. The tv stations can use it and send a smaller signal that (maybe but not likely) improves the picture and anyone with out digital plus still gets a nice DD sound.

Then what's the point of being able to send it to a receiver via HDMI 1.3 for decoding? Seems redundant.

Some of the BD player manufacturers have promised firmware upgrades for DTS-HD MA decoding, which will probably occur before receivers are available with that same decoding.
Most (if not all?) HD DVDs have been authored in Advanced mode, for interactivity. For titles that will be available in both formats, BD is going to develop a reputation of being like HD DVD with the interactivity stripped out. Once they get the technology up and running, those interactive titles should be just as common as their HD DVD counterparts. Wonder what the hold-up is?

Sanjay

The BD-Java implementations in certain players are less than complete. In other players, the implementation may be complete, but not sufficiently robust to provide a good experience for the customer. The Sony BDP-S1, for example, is waiting on a firmware update to add/improve its BD-Java support.

FOX was originally slated to release From Hell this month, its first disk with some BD-Java interactivity. It was postponed indefinitely (i.e. mid-2007) due to the fact that the disk wouldn't function reliably -- or at all-- on shipping Blu-ray players.

All these hi-def players, from the first HD DVD model to the latest BD player, look like they escaped from the lab early. Not a single one seems complete.

Sanjay

The new format players are classic examples of "early adopter" products. They work fine at the current state of the new technology, and although expensive, they can produce a satisfying customer experience for folks who can't bear to wait.

HOWEVER, each and every one of them will be supplanted by MUCH IMPROVED products in as little as a year. Indeed these new products will likely be even less expensive as well. Being an early adopter has a cost. You pay too much and you have to replace what you buy too soon.

Here's my test: No HD-DVD or Blue Ray player is ready for prime time until it *ALSO* includes a first rate solution for playing standard def DVDs and music discs. None do today -- not by a long shot. The upcoming Pioneer Blue Ray is rumored to be targeting this, but I'm skeptical.

The point is not that standard DVD technology is necessary for a good HD-DVD or Blue Ray experience. The point is that the HD-DVD and Blue Ray technology will be starting to show signs of settling down only when the manufacturers have the time and inclination to worry about secondary characteristics of the player.

But even when we start getting players that meet that test, if the format competition is still tooth and nail, it will be difficult to buy into any of these products without fear of being whipsawed by some sudden change of competitive tactics.

Meanwhile the receiver guys are utterly desperate to cash in on the buying frenzy for the players. All of this HDMI V1.3 hype comes from that. Product marketing over the next year is going to be about as close to unethical as this industry has seen in many decades.

Caveat emptor.
--Bob

Bob,

"No HD-DVD or Blue Ray player is ready for prime time until it *ALSO* includes a first rate solution for playing standard def DVDs and music discs."

Most people are saying that both 1st and 2nd gen Toshiba players do a very good job of upconverting SD DVD's.

What do you think is lacking?

Thanks

Start with 480i over HDMI, and make sure it doesn't clip Blacker than Black or Peak White data nor demonstrate any Y/C delay problems nor have ANY MPEG decoder problems. This is fundamental.

If the player is going to be used for de-interlacing or scaling of the standard DVDs then those need to be up to the standard of first tier, modern DVD players as well. In addition, the user experience (menu access, speed of interaction, layer change processing, etc.) must also be up to the level of the better DVD players.

In other words, don't just toss out standard DVD playing as an afterthought or marketing checkoff item.

It aint done right until buyers feel perfectly comfortable retiring their Oppo 970's or Pioneer Elite DV-59avis or -79avis, or Denon 3910s. (I'm not expecting something at the level of a Denon 5910.)
--Bob