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Sony Pearl arrived! But what happened to the color? (See Screenshots)

post #1 of 94
Thread Starter 
I just received my Pearl from AVS today! AVS has some of the best customer support of any company I've ever dealt with. I highly recommend them, especially Jason.

My Samsung H710AE recently died, and rather than get it repaired/replaced and risk another failure, I went with the Pearl due to Jason's recommendation. He burned it in, checked the unit, and ISF calibrated it before sending it out (for an extra fee).

As some of you might know, the Samsung had incredible color detail and perfect saturation (slightly over-saturated, but as a professional photographer this is what I prefer) out of the box, no calibration necessary. I had high hopes that a professionaly-tuned Pearl (by Jason, no less!) would perform on par or better than the Samsung.

So I set everything up, and to my utter dismay, the picture was extremely desaturated. The colors might be accurate but they're completely flat, dull, and lifeless. So I switched RCP off and tried the Dynamic and Cinema settings: the picture instantly came to life with vivid colors -- a bit too oversaturated but a significant improvement! Jason recommended pumping up the Color setting, which I tried, but this was only a marginal improvement and in some scenes caused some anomalies (too much green in flesh tones for example).

Here are some screenshots that illustrate the difference between three settings:

a) RCP: User1 / User 1 (Color setting at 67) -- This is the Jason/ISF calibrated setting.
b) RCP: User1 / User 1 (with the Color setting maxed out)
c) RCP: Off / Dynamic

I tried to be very exact in capturing the colors (my camera/monitor are appropriately calibrated) and the result is a fairly good representation of what I'm seeing with this projector.

RCP: User1 / User 1 (Color setting at 67) -- This is the Jason/ISF calibrated setting.


RCP: User1 / User 1 (with the Color setting maxed out)


RCP: Off / Dynamic


RCP: User1 / User 1 (Color setting at 67) -- This is the Jason/ISF calibrated setting.


RCP: User1 / User 1 (with the Color setting maxed out)


RCP: Off / Dynamic


RCP: User1 / User 1 (Color setting at 67) -- This is the Jason/ISF calibrated setting.


RCP: User1 / User 1 (with the Color setting maxed out)


RCP: Off / Dynamic
post #2 of 94
Thread Starter 
RCP: User1 / User 1 (Color setting at 67) -- This is the Jason/ISF calibrated setting.


RCP: User1 / User 1 (with the Color setting maxed out)


RCP: Off / Dynamic


RCP: User1 / User 1 (Color setting at 67) -- This is the Jason/ISF calibrated setting.


RCP: User1 / User 1 (with the Color setting maxed out)


RCP: Off / Dynamic


RCP: User1 / User 1 (with the Color setting maxed out)


RCP: Off / Dynamic


What do you guys think?

Technical Info: Stewart Firehawk G2, Toshiba HD-A1 (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory), Sony PS3 (Fifth Element, Kingdom of Heaven) all over HDMI
post #3 of 94
Surely as a photographer you can see that colors are glowing - the red push is obvious! Would you accept a camera that brightened up all the colors like that - unless you intentionally wanted to goose them for artistic impact?

It completely ruins the mood of the scene with her on the ledge - she is frightened and drained - yet with red push it looks like she stopped to put her lipstick and rouge on - as well as put on a radioactive wig.

While Jason may have calibrated it - he would have used a reference. If your source is not reference - then you will still have to adjust the color control using AVIA and the blue filter - either on the display or the source. Offsite calibration is best for getting the grayscale corrected on the panel - which is not affected by colorized B&W video. But the basics of brightness/contrast/color/tint are there for sources - having it adjusted to a reference source is half the battle - since now you will know if your source needs adjusted as well.

So it maybe that your reference setting is weak for your source - but it certainly should not be maxed like you have it.
post #4 of 94
I prefer the color of my IF 4805



Edit: Larger photo
post #5 of 94
Thread Starter 
Yeah, the red push was particularly nasty in Finding Nemo. But overall the saturation is much nicer than the drained calibrated setting! I have both AVIA and Video Essentials (though not the HD version that just came out). Can you be more specific about which additional adjustments I will need to make to bring the color up to par? I wish there were colorimeters for projectors (like for monitors and printers)!
post #6 of 94
smithfarmer

Where is the leeloo on the ledge gallery shootout thread - a classic! Didn't i just link it for you in PM recently?
post #7 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

I prefer the color of my IF 4805


I do, too! So far, this Pearl has not come close to matching the color of the Samsung H710AE.
post #8 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

smithfarmer

Where is the leeloo on the ledge gallery shootout thread - a classic! Didn't i just link it for you in PM recently?

I'll try and dig it up. I lost all my saved links as I recently had to do a full system restore on my pc
post #9 of 94
You do not need calibration gear to do basic video adjustments - and offsite calibration does not replace tuning these for your sources - rather than the calibrators reference sources. There indeed are inexpensive colorimeters for the HT market - but you do not need one for basic settings.

First do your contrast/brightness - it looks a bit low compared to the SP4805 pic (or it maybe exposure). You are looking for the point just before near black and near white clip on AVIA - and whiter than white and blacker than black on DVE clips.

Both AVIA and DVE came with the blue filter - the idea is color control is correct when thru the blue filter - white and blue on the standard colorbars are the same brightness. You can also do a similar check for Red/Green decoding - which you can adjust on the Sony using the RCP functions (I assume this was done during calibration) - so you probably just need adjust for blue using the basic color control. Once you have that correct - compare the Magenta and Cyan for the same level with the blue filter - as that is your tint adjustment.
post #10 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Where is the leeloo on the ledge gallery shootout thread - a classic!

ha! I remember that thread. Here are some additions from now defuct, older projectors I used to own:

Panasonic AE900


Infocus SP5000
post #11 of 94
I think I may know what happened if Jason wants to comment - but on the Sony Ruby - I assume Sony Pearl is the same way - there is a tradeoff to be made in RCP.

You can pull the color briteness way way down - and that will shrink the color gamut away from candy colors into HD spec. Or you can balance out the color briteness to spec for proper color decoder test - and be happy with the deeper candy colors. The trick with color decoder is that colors are not just balanced amongst themselves - but have to be referenced w.r.t. white. The Sony RCP does not allow both adjustments - so you have to make a tradeoff. I would go for getting color decoder correct rather than gamut correct. A glowing red is more offensive than a deeper red, and so is a dim red.

Of course with Samsung being a Joe Kane Production - they made sure it had the proper adjustments and presets for reference.

Also with new lamps (except the Xenon in Sony Ruby) - you will have inherent red push as the lamp burns in the first 100 hours. Obviously not something a reseller can do before they calibrate as you would need racks and racks of burn-in shelves!

I think both of your past LCD pics are showing a bit of red push - so read up on the blue filter AVIA/DVE colorbars adjustments - it is very easy to do! Your Panny is a bit of clipping on contrast - too much shine on her face. Still would have been near the top of the heap in that gallery shootout thread! Amazing what people think is a calibrated picture!
post #12 of 94
No luck I could only search my last 300 posts and couldn't find it.

Edit: Kras you were right. it was in my pm's.
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...d.php?t=552086
post #13 of 94
Classic thread! Glad you found it - search is useless when it comes to my posts or PMs!

I don't think DaGamePimp has his pic linked in that thread - but he was the winner IMPO
post #14 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Classic thread! Glad you found it - search is useless when it comes to my posts or PMs!

I don't think DaGamePimp has his pic linked in that thread - but he was the winner IMPO

True. Funny how guitarman was trying to trash it even though everyone knew better
post #15 of 94
I noticed a slight loss of detail in the non-calibrated pics compared to the Jason calibrated pics. The colors bleed across objects a little in the non-calibrated pics.

btw: definite difference between the 1080p Pearl and the 720p examples others have posted.
post #16 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMovies View Post

I noticed a slight loss of detail in the non-calibrated pics compared to the Jason calibrated pics. The colors bleed across objects a little in the non-calibrated pics.

btw: definite difference between the 1080p Pearl and the 720p examples others have posted.

I'm sorry, I don't see any loss of detail in any of the shots, just color differences.

And I don't see a "definite difference between the 1080p and 720p examples, either.

Can you tell me specifically what you're seeing that I'm missing?

BTW: I'm with the OP, I like a little more saturation.
post #17 of 94
Isn´t the proper procedure
1 check color decoder with blue filter
2 chose wide gamut on Pearl
3 use RCP and lower the brightness of red to your liking

Point 3 due to the incompleteness of the RCP control
post #18 of 94
To my eyes on this CRT screen, the calibrated pictures lack pop and are too cold and sterile. On the other hand, boosting the color overboosts it, and I don't like those either. So, it's either cold without punch or too much punch and overbearing.
post #19 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

No luck I could only search my last 300 posts and couldn't find it.

Edit: Kras you were right. it was in my pm's.
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...d.php?t=552086


Man who ever made this classic Thread Rocks!

LOL!
post #20 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

I think I may know what happened if Jason wants to comment - but on the Sony Ruby - I assume Sony Pearl is the same way - there is a tradeoff to be made in RCP.

You can pull the color briteness way way down - and that will shrink the color gamut away from candy colors into HD spec. Or you can balance out the color briteness to spec for proper color decoder test - and be happy with the deeper candy colors. The trick with color decoder is that colors are not just balanced amongst themselves - but have to be referenced w.r.t. white. The Sony RCP does not allow both adjustments - so you have to make a tradeoff. I would go for getting color decoder correct rather than gamut correct. A glowing red is more offensive than a deeper red, and so is a dim red.

This explains why I can never get my colors to look right on the Pearl -- and why the picture often resembles one of those old Turner TV Colorized Classics. I also think this is why Sony offers the standard color mode, to filter the brightness of red and blue and thereby make images look more natural when the Turner TV effect kicks in.

It's not a good trade off, IMHO. There is no way to get the colors right on this thing, and those calibrated screen shots (when considered in tandem with the remarks in Jason Turk's review) are further evidence of what I'm seeing on my own Pearl.

Maybe I'm just too picky (is that possible around here?), but to me this seems like a gigantic PQ problem. I now appreciate the impact of poor colorimetry as never before.

For the first several weeks that I owned this projector, I highly recommended it to other people. In fact, I loved it. Then I started to notice the color uniformity problems, which I have attempted to tweak out of existence via 3D gamma. And for the last couple of weeks, my biggest beef has been the colors. On certain content, the colors just have the ability to get out of whack unlike any other display I've ever owned. And I believe this is a feature, not a defect.
post #21 of 94
gremmy
Do you use wide color gamut and has the brightness of red slightlly reduced with RCP. This with proper grayscale should give colors that many can accept. We often react to redpush beacuse of skin tones. Blue and green a little too saturate are they not a lesser problem.
post #22 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

gremmy
Do you use wide color gamut and has the brightness of red slightlly reduced with RCP. This with proper grayscale should give colors that many can accept. We often react to redpush beacuse of skin tones. Blue and green a little too saturate are they not a lesser problem.


I've tried that. So far, I have not found a solution that is agreeable when using the AutoIris modes.

Strangely, as I mentioned in another thread, the colors on my Pearl are much easier to calibrate to acceptable levels when using the Manual Iris modes, perhaps due to the lack of dynamic gamma, perhaps not.
post #23 of 94
I agree with the original poster, where are the colors!??!!

I personally prefer picture C as it looks more vibrant and punchy but not too much.

Picture A seems to be really washed out and missing a LOT of color IMO.
post #24 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

This explains why I can never get my colors to look right on the Pearl -- and why the picture often resembles one of those old Turner TV Colorized Classics. I also think this is why Sony offers the standard color mode, to filter the brightness of red and blue and thereby make images look more natural when the Turner TV effect kicks in.


'Wide' color is not actually a color gamut change - it is a color brightness change. If you study CIE1976 LCH color space - you realize that the human eye can be fooled - it considers a 'brighter' and/or 'deeper' color to be the same measure - simply a 'stronger' color. Sony surely is aware of this principle! LCH does not measure gamut - it measures colorfulness (C) - which includes both gamut and decoding - so you have to break out the decoding (L) - are the colors 'stronger' because they are too 'bright' or too 'deep'?


Very few PJ have proper color management systems that allow to adjust color in its three dimensions of gamut and decoding - Sony despite having RCP does not qualify. Once you have seen the proper picture - it is very difficult to view these blown out colors. In the past it became very difficult to watch blown out B&W - as a result most PJ have the grayscale controls to achieve D65. The more reviewers start taking accurate objective perceptual measures of gamut and decoding - the more that PJ manufacturers will take notice and at least have the option for accurate colors.

gremmy
AutoIris abuses the color decoding - it already has a tough enough job to balance dynamic vs. static gamma which is a compromise itself - and it is not taking into account color - just it's luminance. So blues may be too brite in one scene - then too dim in the next scene. Underworld:Revolution is a great flick for dynamic iris abuse.

But until you start doing some reference viewing - you don't notice the color games that look great in a tradeshow booth or review screenshot. Popping colors sells.
post #25 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Isn´t the proper procedure
1 check color decoder with blue filter
2 chose wide gamut on Pearl
3 use RCP and lower the brightness of red to your liking

Point 3 due to the incompleteness of the RCP control

IMHO, the major problem with RCP is that it has relatively narrow yellow zone that you can't adjust. During some scenes in the movies flesh tones fall into this zone - looks pretty ugly.
post #26 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

This explains why I can never get my colors to look right on the Pearl -- and why the picture often resembles one of those old Turner TV Colorized Classics. I also think this is why Sony offers the standard color mode, to filter the brightness of red and blue and thereby make images look more natural when the Turner TV effect kicks in.

It's not a good trade off, IMHO. There is no way to get the colors right on this thing, and those calibrated screen shots (when considered in tandem with the remarks in Jason Turk's review) are further evidence of what I'm seeing on my own Pearl.

Maybe I'm just too picky (is that possible around here?), but to me this seems like a gigantic PQ problem. I now appreciate the impact of poor colorimetry as never before.

For the first several weeks that I owned this projector, I highly recommended it to other people. In fact, I loved it. Then I started to notice the color uniformity problems, which I have attempted to tweak out of existence via 3D gamma. And for the last couple of weeks, my biggest beef has been the colors. On certain content, the colors just have the ability to get out of whack unlike any other display I've ever owned. And I believe this is a feature, not a defect.

I'd stay away from Dynamic video choice, just turn off RCP and use Standard and try a higher up gamma. Those pictures look pretty bad.
post #27 of 94
Pearl owners might be interested in what Cine4home has come up with to correct the deficiencies in the color management system used in Pearl. They have posted a new tuning article on the Pearl
:
http://translate.google.com/translat...icrosoft:en-us
post #28 of 94
smithfarmer

posted comments in your new thread.

No such thing as free lunch with add-on filters - better contrast - little brightness loss - but even worse red push to deal with!
post #29 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Both AVIA and DVE came with the blue filter - the idea is color control is correct when thru the blue filter - white and blue on the standard colorbars are the same brightness.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try that tonight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Of course with Samsung being a Joe Kane Production - they made sure it had the proper adjustments and presets for reference.

I should have taken a few shots with the Samsung, as it was absolutely gorgeous. It was so perfect that I didn't feel the need to browse or even post on the forum when it was working While the colors were slightly over-saturated, their vibrancy did not bleed, as the Sony does. Any word on Joe Kane's next? Is it the Samsung H800?
post #30 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I'm sorry, I don't see any loss of detail in any of the shots, just color differences.

And I don't see a "definite difference between the 1080p and 720p examples, either.

Can you tell me specifically what you're seeing that I'm missing?

BTW: I'm with the OP, I like a little more saturation.

LoveMovies, I am also curious what difference you see between 1080p and 720p examples. I'm coming from a 720p DLP and to my eye, the projected 720p image popped out more, it was more three-dimensional. The projected 1080p image is sharp, but the extra resolution makes the overall image smoother, but less 3D.
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