After Exhaustive Testing- The Pio 640 is Still King..

I've been joking about my Pio-neerperfect 640 for awhile now, but maybe it is!?

Thanks for all your testing and your refreshing lack of bias. I know many people who can't decide on brands really appreciate your tests since they are a comparison of products you have and use, not just comments on one brand of equipment a person happens to own (like mine)...makes your tests especially helpful.

It lacks one of my two favorite features on the 520: The chapter mark button on the remote.

I'm very satisfied with my 633...once I found how to disable the EPG.

I have not pursued Pioneer to upgrade me to a 640, but I am wondering what features on the 633 I would lose if I did. I know about the extra features on the 640 but what 633 features other than the EPG were removed with the 640?

Can you point me to another post?

I think only the DV input is also gone, and some remote buttons. (I like the 640's remote, others don't!)

One thing I've noticed in comparing my 531 w/the 640 is the better PQ I seem to get at ALL rec modes. I never used LP on the 531 since it looked like my old SLP VHS recordings, and the lower-quality modes were progressively worse than that.

So, to me anyway, it seems that the 640's improved LP mode might have been extended somewhat to the other modes as well? (Analog cable, 51" proj. TV.)

Beware: disabling the 633's TVGOS using Eureka is not permanent, and when "EPG" returns you can miss recordings.

Upgrading from the 633 to the 640 you lose:

- TVGOS EPG (Hurray!)
- DV-IN
- Optical digital audio out (replaced by digital coax audio output)
- The ability to adjust audio levels on inputs.
- Gamma & Detail video adjustments are only available for playback, not for recording. (I'm not sure, but I think they were there for recording adjustments too on the 633...if they even applied.)
- Remote buttons: Open/Close, TV controls, and many buttons hidden by sliding door. Commercial Skip on the 640 Remote does not work for finalized recordings, but using the 633 remote on the 640 it does! (If you exchange, keep your 633 remote...Pioneer let me do that.)
- XP+ recording mode
- No IR blaster

You gain:

- +R/+RW +R DL & RAM compatibility (-R is still best...more FF/RW speeds)
- Slightly improved PQ overall and higher 720x480 resolution up to LP mode.
- Easy Timer (Select start/stop times for timers using a grid.)
- VCRPlus
- Music Jukebox
- USB ports for importing/playing/printing music and photos
- Much more accurate clock
- Very quiet even when recording and high-speed copying...silent when off
- Fast startup...about 8 seconds
- Divx support (limited)
- Autorecord mode on L1 (If you have a sat/cable tuner that doesn't output a signal when in standby...most do which renders Autorecord useless.)
- When entering titles, defaults to CAPS on
- Reliability! (I've never missed a timer recording. Can't say that for the 633.)

Did I miss anything?

As the founder of Eureka I can assure you it is permanent...I have not had any reoccurance of EPG since I first posted.. but perhaps it is because I always have a timer recording scheduled (seems to me that someone pointed this out early on)...so perhaps the instructions should include setting a timer up to record 1 minute in 2022!

Thanks for the great summary of 633 vs 640...Too bad about the door.. but I'll keep my 633 remote if I upgrade.

I hope I'm not bursting a bubble, but I had the 633 and used Eureka WITH a permanent timer recording set in the distant future and it did indeed disable TVGOS data searching, but as others have also reported after about a month or sometimes after just a week or two "EPG" would return to the front panel display and the searching would begin again. When this happened, often timer events would not fire.

To be clear, I used Canadian Postal Code A0A0A0, with no cable or antenna to completely disable TVGOS, which resulted in much slower (about 45 seconds) startup time but the 633 was silent when off until EPG returned.

I know others have reported some partial success where EPG would return but without the HDD thrashing etc, and others just either leave the unit on 24/7 or never use timers so it doesn't matter to them, but not so for me. I use satellite and don't get any OTA channels that carry TVGOS data, so I needed a complete disable.

I tried all the different permutations with/without cable/cable box/antenna always including a permanent timer event and always "EPG" would return after a while. You are the first person I've heard from that said they had EPG permanently (over a month or so) disabled, assuming I don't misunderstand you. Are you perhaps one of those that just allows "EPG" to remain displayed while in standby, or maybe you just leave the unit on all the time, or don't use timer events? IF not, then you are lucky because it was only a temporary solution for the rest of us. Obviously Pioneer agreed because I told Pioneer Canada about Eureka, but when it failed they eventually offered us an exchange at no extra charge.

In my case, AFIAK the only way to be certain the EPG would remain disabled was to exchange it for a 640 and I am very happy I did! (Thanks again Pioneer.)

That is weird...my EPG went away and never came back...yes it now takes 45 sec to start(boot) the box because it is totally off when EPG does not display...I have no idea why others have not had the same experience..glad you are happy with your 640.

Not trying to be sarcastic here. Just trying to learn. How can the Pioneer be "King" when you can not record on a DVD-R in 16:9 format? The Toshiba RD-XS55 lets you record on to DVD-R in 16:9 aspect ratio. with the Pioneer you can't record all the new 16:9 HD (downconverted) content to a DVD-R. The Toshiba can. Would that make the Toshiba the Most "Feature Rich" machine on the market. I have Sonys that will do this but you can't divide a title. you can with the Toshiba. Why doesn't anyone like toshiba...
Just trying to learn guys. Please don't take offense.

I agree that the Toshiba is a "feature rich" dvd recorder, in fact it is the only one that will let you make chapter menus...

However.... The Toshiba RD-X35 that I had for a few days had several show stopping issues for me. It incorrectly showed "copy protected" material on MOST of the channels from my TWC cable box. The hard disk had fragmentation issues after only two days of minor hard disk editing and I actually "lost" some test material on the HDD. This has never happened in two years of using the Pioneer HDD models. Finally, I was not able to control recording on the Toshiba from the IR-blaster that comes with my SA3250HD cable box, works fine on my Pioneers.

I use the great Pioneer P531H (900+ DVD recordings) and the newer P640H (I have tried nearly all the major brand DVD recorders except Cyberhome and Samsung). The Pioneer menu options are not as good as the Toshiba hdd recorders, but they are solid machines and have many other easy to use features.

Hey, I wanted the Toshiba to work for me as I'm always looking for the best tool for the job.

I picked up two of the Toshiba RD-KX50's cheap on e-slay (average price of around $55 per unit). I wanted one because they are able to set the 16x9 flag when recording. Plus I have a couple of the Toshiba KR2's that were going to be hard to replace because of all of the features they offer (but no HDD). Based on how the auctions were going at the time I wound up with two. Only problem was that they did not come with remotes but the remotes from the KR2's work fine with the KX50's. I did order one remote though which added to the cost.

The KX50's were essentially new. Still packed like they are when new. It looked like somebody opened them and removed the remotes. All cables were wrapped as new. Even the HDMI cables that were included. I'm gloating a bit - sorry!

The KX50's have the same operating menu structure as the KR2's. The features are the same.

With the KX50's I get everything I like about the KR2's with the added benfit of a HDD (only 80GB but still nice to have). Plus the KX50 has HDMI with upconverting. I get full wide screen recording when feeding the Toshiba with a Polaroid recorder that has component inputs. Setting the wide screen flag for me is the key. Something the 640 cannot do.

As a result my 640 is back in the box . When I used it I thought it was great but I can't find a spot for it. It would be easy for me to give up the 640. The Toshiba's would be hard to replace. But this is just because of my usage patterns. The KX50 and the Pio 640 are both great machines.

And the PQ on both is excellent.

Toshiba definitely rules on customizing your recording. I have the Toshiba D-R1 and D-R2 and they let you set a thumbnail for your chapters...and name each chapter if you choose. But I think it's PQ that makes Pioneer the "HoustonGuy proclaimed" King.

I have the Pioneer 640 too and this thread is the first time I actually have seen someone say that the 4-Hour LP mode on the Pioneer is better than the critically acclaimed Panasonic in LP mode. That actually makes me feel good as I have always wondered how much better Panasonic must actually look if it's really better than the quality with Pioneer, but I am starting to think now that it may not be better.

As a test...now that they are running a lot of Christmas Specials on TV...I recorded a 10 hour marathon (11 specials) edited out the commercials on all of them and put them on a DVD+R DL disc in the LP mode which yields 7 hours and 27 minutes using a DL disc. However, despite obtaining more time, it will still record programming at the same quality level that you would receive using a single layered disc at the LP mode, so it was basically an LP mode test. The result...all the specials came out great, and now I have 11 of them on one DVD.

One thing, which we've dialogued about: upgrading to the 640 from the 633 you take a significant degradation in readability of generated text. Titles are much harder to read (e.g. i and l are about the same) and you have to be very careful in programming channels because 6 and 8 look the same.

I may have a second one; I'm not sure. As you know, when real-time copying MN21 on HDD to MN14 on DVD-RW, chapter marks were retained. You expressed some surprise, and I was surprised too, because I'm pretty sure the 633's documentation said they'd be lost. Either that's a change from 633 to 640, or it was an error in documentation.

If you're talking about the 633, I did have that experience. I was still willing to put up with the delay for the sake of getting rid of that stupid misfeature.

By the way, I've seen several complicated schemes for turning off EPG on the 633, but Pioneer gave me a much simpler one that works:

1. In TV Guide setup, enter 00000 for zip code. This by itself is not enough, and EPG will return. You must also...

2. Always make sure that there's at least one timer recording pending. I just set a one-minute recording 364 days in the future, and of course as that date got close I would have changed it -- if I still had the 633.

I ran that way for two or three months, and EPG never came back.

My 633 was quite unreliable, and I see from AC's checklist that others had the same experience. I had lots of freezeups in recorded program, and about one recording in ten just never happened. So far the 640 has been rock-solid, *and* the clock is accurate. If only the on-screen menus and programming text were readable and if only you could enter a permanent title when setting up a recording.

If Pioneer would address the software bug in the MN settings, the 640 would be top of the list.

JeffWld:

What is the software bug in the Manual settings?

suplex

Great list! Thanks!

I wonder if the text/font issue you have is specific to your equipment because again, I have 2 640s and don't have a problem. The one using component cables to 32" LCD is very clear on menus, so much so I would say no one could possibly complain or confuse a 6 for an 8 etc. The other 640 is connected using composite cable to an old 20" Sony CRT and although it isn't as clear, I can't say it is nearly as bad as you describe. (I sit about 6ft - 8ft from the TV.) I wouldn't consider it a drop in readability from the 633, in fact certainly for the timer setup screen on the 640 is much better than the tiny portion of the screen you use with the 2005 models.

Regarding the chapter marks/manual, yes I was surprised because I thought they were lost during real-time re-encodes, but it wouldn't be the only error in the manual especially regarding copies.

If I remember correctly (?) JeffWld reported his 640 was occasionally recording at the wrong bitrate...other than what was programmed in a timer event. I have been watching for this since reading about it a few months ago, (including watching file sizes,) but haven't had it happen. So far so good.

Is this what you mean JeffWld, and if so how often does it happen and under what circumstances/intended bitrates?

1. Why are they making people LOSE features on newer models? I have the 510-H and someone in here said that this model, which is years removed from my 510... would not even let me make chapter marks????

2. Can you think of any other improvements that would be added to the list of gained features when comparing with the 510? I havent followed what has changed the past couple years.

3. Does Sony still have the best PQ, but not as many features?

4. Does anyone happen to know why it is hard to find any Sony dvd recorder with a hard drive anymore??? It's like they stopped selling them almost everywhere. Something wrong?

5. I thought even the 510-H would set a flag for 16:9! I never have really needed it yet, but I sure thought it did. But it would make no sense to then take that away in a newer model, so who knows...

6. Do any Sony models set the flag?

7. Is it worth even buying one now since at some point blu-ray recorders would be released here? Only reason i really am looking to buy one is my parents said I should give them my 510 for Christmas and get me a new one and I cant think of anything to get them. lol If they decided it wasn't good enough for them (which it would be since they rarely even record anything to begin with) it's not like I would find anything else they want.

If i do buy a new one I have to clear off an entire HD on the 510 though and I wonder how much "bnetter" the 640 will be.

My Sony HX-900 can set the flag and I think other models (300, 715?) can as well. The PQ on the HX-900 is awesome. Hard to imagine anything better - recorded material frequently looks *better* than the source (IMHO). Easy to edit out commercials, and lots of PQ related features, but not much on the editing side other than basic A-B edits. A solid machine though, EPG works good for me, and it makes excellent quality DVD's at hi-speed. Very reliable.

Not sure why it's hard to find the HD models. Maybe Sony isn't feeding the channels?

I dont know. I have liked my older Pioneer and havent really had problems. I had a Sony for a few days once and I "think" the PQ was better with the Sony than my Pioneer I currently own. But the no HD and bad editing options was why I chose the Pioneer back then. I dont use divide often, but indeed that can be important.

Sony and Pioneer are all I would even consider. I usually ONLY buy Sony, except for video games I buy Nintendo. lol

Here's some info. on the Sony HX900 re: its lack of a Divide function, as well as its inability to "optimize" a recording or allow incremental manual quality settings like the Pio 640 (32 settings in 5- and 10-min. increments).

From a Crutchfield Advisor review, by Amanda Moore:

"One drawback to the 'HX900 is that it can't optimize DVD recordings. Some recorders can squeeze or stretch a program by adjusting the recording quality to make sure it fits perfectly on a DVD. Say you wanted to record a 2.5 hour movie to DVD using the 'HX900. SP can only fit 2 hours onto a DVD not enough space for your 2.5 hour movie. LP can fit 3 hours on a disc plenty of space for your movie, but that extra 30 minutes of space is wasted.

If quality is a priority, another option is to divide the recording into two or more sections and record each to separate DVDs, at the highest possible quality. The 'HX900 doesn't make it particularly easy to do this. I found that the simplest solution was to use the timer to set two or more consecutive recordings in one of the higher quality recording modes, and then copy those separately to DVD. Using the example above, if the movie aired from 7:00-9:30, you could set one recording for 7-8:30, and the next for 8:30-9:30. Then, instead of LP (which fits 3 hours on a disc), you could use HSP (which only fits 1.5 hours) for much better picture quality."

BUt, which is the bigger flaw... Not being able to record 16:9 with the flag? Or the title divide thing. Unless you are into sports, the title divide thing doesn;t even come into play. I agree I wish my Sony's had it but, I still think there is alot more work getting a flagged 16:9 recording to a DVD-R with my Pannys.

I agree I had a pioneer 531 for a few weeks (then returned to Walmart) My SOny surely had Superior PQ and the 16:9 Flag was a deal breaker for me.