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1080p-720p shoot-out in Athens! - Page 2

post #31 of 643
IMHO, its virtually impossible to tell the difference with an 800x533 picture (half that vertically for each sub-image) - you'd really have to be there to judge for yourself. Interesting test and discussion nonetheless.
post #32 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

Take image 1 for example, better detail is noticed in the leaves of the trees.

I have my face to my monitor and the only better detail I can see is shadow detail. If you pick out individual leaves that you can see on both images, I can't see any more detail in either one. It's the darkness of the top image in the shadows that's making them look different IMHO.
post #33 of 643
Great test!

But I suspect you would have saved a lot of time just reading this:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hit...esolution.html
http://www.carltonbale.com/blog/2006...p-does-matter/
post #34 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

IMHO, its virtually impossible to tell the difference with an 800x533 picture (half that vertically for each sub-image) - you'd really have to be there to judge for yourself. Interesting test and discussion nonetheless.

Very much agree. I think the most important part of this thread is what takisot reported from the folks who were actually there. And they had a hard time telling them apart.
post #35 of 643
I'm sure they did.

There was only one 1080 clip played.
post #36 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I think the most important part of this thread is what takisot reported from the folks who were actually there. And they had a hard time telling them apart.

Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by funlvr1965 View Post

getting pretty excited Alan, the projector is due to arrive tomorrow however im doing work in california at the moment, my wife will pick it up from our local ups on friday and I will be home on saturday morning

Its got to be killing you not being able to be there when it arrives. This begs the question as soon as you arrive home will you spend some time with your wife or run to power up the Marantz. Maybe you you should not answer this, it may get you in trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

Definitely agree, but 13 feet from a 130" screen (that is correct, isn't it?) is much closer than most of us would sit, isn't it? What's the viewing distance ratio on that?

13 feet would indeed be less then 1.5 but this looks like a formal meet & I bet most people walked around the room and ck out the view from the back of the room. I am sure many saw pixels from the first row but the point was to compare the resolving detail between both machines.
post #37 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

I'm sure they did.

There was only one 1080 clip played.

Are you saying the clips quoted as "1080", with just one unnamed exception, were really of less resolution and, therefore, scaled up?
post #38 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

I'm sure they did.

There was only one 1080 clip played.

Isn't this what he wrote:
Quote:


As reference clips, the following were used:
HD VIDEO: BenQ demo, Epson Demo, Shakira Tortura mtv video clip, Samsung Demo, (all at 1920Χ1080i)
HD FILM: Starship Troopers (1920Χ1080i)
post #39 of 643
[quote=Alan Gouger]Agreed.




Its got to be killing you not being able to be there when it arrives. This begs the question as soon as you arrive home will you spend some time with your wife or run to power up the Marantz. Maybe you you should not answer this, it may get you in trouble



Alan you and I have had some great conversations in the past and as you know my wife is extremely supportive even accompanying me to a recent meet, she is just as exciting as I am about the new addition to our theater, with that said its a machine, I dont get into trouble im the boss but I never make my wife feel unimportant, we have a great a balance, too often on the forum I hear the opposite is true
in the picture she is in the back row in the black shirt and standing behind her in the red shirt
LL
post #40 of 643
The lens on the PJ to the right appears to be aimed slightly lower than the one on the left. That should be the tell tale sign for those that know the facade of the 720p and 1080p units.
post #41 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

We even had 3-4 people who in fact thought that the 720 projector was the 1080 one! Some thought that the 1080 had better depth, but all agreed that if you have a very good 720 projector and you are not planning to sit very close to the screen or to project more than 130', then the upgrade to 1080 is not necessary.
Both projectors threw a glorious image, in HD and in SD and did match perfectly with the HTPC as source.

Interesting, although everyone was looking at resolution it appears that for most people at the meet the contrast difference (4500:1 vs 6500:1) was either insignificant or non-existent?
post #42 of 643
Excellent and very interesting thread. One of the main reasons why I went with a better quality and brightest 720p until we see perhaps a better crop of more affordable and brighter 1080p's in the next round.

Thanks for posting this .
Joe
post #43 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

IMHO, its virtually impossible to tell the difference with an 800x533 picture (half that vertically for each sub-image) - you'd really have to be there to judge for yourself. Interesting test and discussion nonetheless.

Not to mention the pictures were taken of active displays (not paused) which will give a 'smoother' effect because the aperture stays open while the picture is in motion.... and these pics were taken at what distance??? Of course you're not going to be able to see a resolution difference!



Interesting though...
post #44 of 643
[quote=funlvr1965]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post



Alan you and I have had some great conversations in the past and as you know my wife is extremely supportive even accompanying me to a recent meet, she is just as exciting as I am about the new addition to our theater, with that said its a machine, I dont get into trouble im the boss but I never make my wife feel unimportant, we have a great a balance, too often on the forum I hear the opposite is true
in the picture she is in the back row in the black shirt and standing behind her in the red shirt

I meant no disrespect to your wife. As you pointed out I am well aware you and your wife are a team. Shes great. Thats how it should be. Please say hi.
And now you have a new addition to the family
post #45 of 643
Based on these shots the background and foreground detail seems a lot better better with the bottom picture. That should be the 1080p image.
post #46 of 643
[quote=Alan Gouger]
Quote:
Originally Posted by funlvr1965 View Post


I meant no disrespect to your wife. As you pointed out I am well aware you and your wife are a team. Shes great. Thats how it should be. Please say hi.
And now you have a new addition to the family


youre a class act Alan no need for apologies we have had great business and friendly interactions through the years, I never felt slighted not one bit
post #47 of 643
All things being the same in the technique of capturing the scene, the bottom definitely is better. Look at the leaves (close) and buildings (far) and it is sharper on the bottom (color aside). Motion makes a big difference...but all the same, the bottom is better.
post #48 of 643
Alright, we seem to keep going back and forth between folks who can't see any difference or say there should be no way to see any difference on these shots, and people who say there's "definitely more detail" in the lower shot.

I personally can't see any difference in resolution. I see a difference in shadow detail, but if you look at objects that are clearly lit, there's no increased resolution that I can see (and some say shouldn't be able to see).

Now, since screenshots are not accurate representations of what was there, the most important thing is what the actual observers on site thought--which is that there was little to insignificant improvement at 4 meters from a 130" screen.

That being said, let's talk about this discrepancy between those who think they can see a difference and those who can't. And it would be nice if at some point they are actually revealed to us.
post #49 of 643
OK I give up. . . .which one is the 1080p??
post #50 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by krholmberg View Post

The lens on the PJ to the right appears to be aimed slightly lower than the one on the left. That should be the tell tale sign for those that know the facade of the 720p and 1080p units.

Now if only I knew which is which

I am not sure why so many people complain about the screenshot.
Screenshots are NEVER a true comparison. But you can clearly see that there is a different presentation here.
Of course you can find lots of factors which could cause this.

But I do think you could tell differences in sharpness and color from the shots.
post #51 of 643
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

I'm sure they did.

There was only one 1080 clip played.

Actually, as I said in the first post ALL Hd clip played were 1920X1080.

Thank you all very much for your kind words. We tried to make this shoot out as objective as possible. Although screenshots are fun, I agree that we should not make any conclusion based on them. In real life, through my average eyes, I could not resolve more detail from the 1080 projector from the 4 meters I was standing. Both projectors looked very sharp though.
I believe that it is time to reveal that the projector on the bottom is the 720p and the one on top the 1080!

Glad you had fun!
post #52 of 643
Quote:


bottom is the 720p and the one on top the 1080!

Honestly, I do not believe you.

I would like this verified by someone......
post #53 of 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

I believe that it is time to reveal that the projector on the bottom is the 720p and the one on top the 1080!

That's absolutely perfect. I love it.
post #54 of 643
I think resolving the difference would depend alot on eyesight. I sit at 14' from a 101" diagonal screen and I can occasionally see screen door on bright white material on my Optoma H78. That's approximatelyt 1.7-1.8 ratio. I'm sure I could tell the diffence between a 720 and 1080 at 1.5 ratio on the basis of screen door alone.
post #55 of 643
Why not have tested this with HD DVD or BR with an actual movie, would be better than Tech Demo using HTPC imho..
post #56 of 643
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee View Post

Honestly, I do not believe you.

I would like this verified by someone......

Well, unless somebody else confirms this from the Greek guys, I guess you will have to take my word on it..

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdputnam View Post

Interesting, although everyone was looking at resolution it appears that for most people at the meet the contrast difference (4500:1 vs 6500:1) was either insignificant or non-existent?

The contrast of the 1080 unit was better to my eyes, but there was not a very big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krholmberg View Post

The lens on the PJ to the right appears to be aimed slightly lower than the one on the left. That should be the tell tale sign for those that know the facade of the 720p and 1080p units.

Ok, this is how it was setup. Notice that we covered half of the lens of each unit (top & bottom) and we used the zoom & lens shift of each pj in order to make them project together at the same frame & inches.We even put a tape on the 1080 front logos in order to keep everyone present in the dark on its wereabouts !
post #57 of 643
I'm glad to see someone post the results here from an instructive session like this. At CEDIA Expo 2006, Digital Projection's theatre had a similar setup (larger, with even more projectors) all on sectors on the same giant screen with the same 1080p source (they were showing movies). At "normal" viewing distances, the 720p projector and the 1080p projector looked virtually identical. (these were 3-chippers, too!) The other "lesser" projector's images were clearly inferior.

The Digital Projection guys said that the "Moral of the Story" is that it's more important to have a great video source than to have a higher resolution projector.

Eric
post #58 of 643
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoohki View Post

Why not have tested this with HD DVD or BR with an actual movie, would be better than Tech Demo using HTPC imho..

We would love to do it, but we could only find one pre-production BR player available (I cant say which was it) and no HD-DVD here yet...
post #59 of 643
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by egcarter View Post

I'm glad to see someone post the results here from an instructive session like this. At CEDIA Expo 2006, Digital Projection's theatre had a similar setup (larger, with even more projectors) all on sectors on the same giant screen with the same 1080p source (they were showing movies). At "normal" viewing distances, the 720p projector and the 1080p projector looked virtually identical. (these were 3-chippers, too!) The other "lesser" projector's images were clearly inferior.

The Digital Projection guys said that the "Moral of the Story" is that it's more important to have a great video source than to have a higher resolution projector.
Eric

Thats exactly how we felt!
post #60 of 643
Interesting... most people couldn't tell the difference from about 4 meters on the 130" screen? That's a 113" wide screen, viewed from 157", meaning a 1.38 viewing ratio - smaller than what most people view from. That means most people couldn't tell the difference between 17.5 pixels per degree and 26 pixels per degree? Considering the human resolving capability is 60 pixels per degree (probably around 40 PPD unless you have a resolution pattern), I have a hard time believing the human eye can't tell the difference between 17.5 pixels per degree and 26 pixels per degree, even for normal movie images.

This reminds me of the extensive testing performed on camcorderinfo.com which often shows that just because you have pixel resolution, doesn't mean the camera can give you enough detail - the Canon HV10 gives you 691 vertical lines of resolving capability, despite it's 1080 vertical pixel capability.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this? Is this showing the problems in camera or projector optics, or is it the compression removing detail (a source issue)? The math and science just doesn't seem to be right...
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