Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 5  

[quote=new27]This was taken fron AV123 boards, it is GOLD imo and deserving of it's own thread. Bravo Craig!

1. JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points.
2. Velodyne DD-18: 100 points.
3. ACI Maestro: 97 points.
4. JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points.
5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
6T. Axiom EP-500: 90 points
7. SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.
8. Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
9. Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
10. Rocket Tyke: 60 points

QUOTE]

So based on the selling prices of these subs, and these numbers (keeping in mind the laws of Diminishing Returns).

How would these subs rate dollar vs. performance from 1-10?

why uh oh? I guess I used the wrong term.

Originally Posted by Schwingding
You all have cursed me. Within the past 2 months I have bought two PB12 Plus/2 s. They make me grin from ear to ear.

However, I did not need to see this thread. Please go away and leave me alone.


Do not regret your purchases. Look at the list. Your sub is in the top 7. When have
you ever owned anything that could be classified in the top 10? even 100?
Car? nope, House? nope, TV? nope, Computer? nope. We are playing in a world of inches, not miles. A sub that is capable and sounds good in your room is the best sub in the world.

We all chase the dream, or we wouldn't be reading this thread!! We all have equipment that most of my friends have never even heard of. So, you know what?
WE are the top 10! Two pb+2's are freakin' awesome!! ENJOY!

Yes I agree Swgiust and well put, the PB plus/2 is an awsome sub......, and you have two of them very nice. Your not going to find to many people who have even close to what you have. And of course trying to keep up with preverbal ''Best" his a never ending revolving door. Congratulations on your two SVS'.

When there's only 12 subs on the list, it's pretty easy to be in the top 10...

Well, Craig doesn't waste his time with just any sub -- he only looks at those he thinks will offer outstanding performance or value.

GEE HOW COME THERE ARE NO BOSE SUBS ON THIS LIST??

Because they move more air, sound better, and dig deeper than any sub on earth. It wouldn't be fair to the other 12 subs if Bose was on the list.

You guys also have to remember that Craig has a very demanding room for most subwoofers. You would probably have a hard time choosing most of the <$1500 subs in a regular sized room.

My subs SVS 16-46PCI-NSD and PB12-NSD are not even on the list. Even so I'm perfectly happy with them. I don't sweat it because someone else always has a faster car, prettier wife/girlfriend, bigger house, more money etc,etc. Happiness is not always having more, sometimes enough really is enough.

Of course, you don't tell her that.

As long as your wife isn't somebody else's girlfriend...

I am actually very seriously considering another pb12-ultra/2.
Is it old technology? yes. But is it still a great sub? yes. And
will two of them blow the doors off of almost anything on the
planet? YES!

How do you like those 2 subs paired up together.

I have a PB-12NSD right now and I'm looking to add another SVS sub in the future.

As of now I'm going to get a 2nd PB-12NSD and stack them, Ed gave me the advice stating all of the positive aspects from stacking.

But I'm interested to hear your thoughts considering the 16-46 is a MONSTER in the deep end of Bass!

I bought the 16-46PCI first and upgraded the speaker to the NSD, the PB-12ISD with upgraded NSD speaker does not play with the authority as the 16-46 BTW they are used separately on two different setups. The 16-46 is in my main HT and the PB-12 is used with my bedroom setup. I don't regret buying either sub. Even though technically my PB12 is not a NSD even with the NSD speaker added. This being due to the addtional tuning done to the cabinet after they upgraded to the NSD from the SVS factory.

I wish you had them paired up to see how they sound! but your ISD design is bottom firing and my new NSD has the front port and front firing woofer so i dont know how it would do in a comparision

Someone said it earlier...(paraphrased) centimeters not inches. Enjoy your subs. The law of diminishing returns combined with subjective judgement costs alot of money.

I love a good lock out

Chair, glass of wine...just waiting...

you love a good lock out? what does that mean?

Craig's top ten has eight serious subs,the last two and the last one is not even a real subwoofer.

A Paradigm Seismic 12 would move the two bottom subs out of the field with a knockout ,and itself would be outclassed by the Servo 15 V2. And you have a few more very competent subs(from SVS among others).

Any serious sub fanatic will not even touch the two bottom "subs" with a sten foot stick.

Soon these rankings should change,the BMF and Submersive and new Ultra should push a few out.And when the Gotham arrives,if Craig tests this beast will take first place.

Where are the Klipsch THX subs??

And it would be fun to have a BUDGET sub listing,a budget top tem.With subs below $600 reviewed and tested. You have a few very interesting prospects from HSU,SVS and company.

Maybe you guys could help me out, I am currently thinking about getting dual PB12/+2 (until I read this thread of course) but I am now considering dual VTF-3 HO w/turbo. The thing is I went to HSU's website and I couldn't find any info about the HO w/turbo so can anyone tell me what is its price, amp power, frequency response, etc? Or if you can point me to a link with that info it would be greatly appreciated.

Also, based on what I read here the HO w/turbo seems to be a better sub than the PB12/+2, again taking money and power and frequency response into the equation, which duals would be better in a 6000 cubic foot basement space?

Thanks

Guys ... This is not a "top ten" list. It is the start of catologing "x" amount of subwoofers based on the criteria already detailed.

Please keep in mind there is a 700+% difference between the Tyke and the Fathom 113. That is pretty signifigant.

In the actual review thread, I said the Tyke was not a true subwoofer. It will add a decent bottom end to some small bookshelf speakers.

And as much as I would love to give meaningful info on every possible subwoofer, that is just not possible. Over time, the list of cataloged subs will grow.

On my end, It is after 1 AM.... my son did FAR better than expected at the invitational, and it was fun reading the responses so far.

Tomorrow, I will update what happened as we were leaving last night, with the PB12-Plus/2 playing Pirates of the Caribbean II in a HUGE room.

I owned those Klipsch THX ultra 2 Subs. My PB12/plus/2 sound just like them, same power as well. I compared them side by side. Very nice build quality. That Gotham looks very nice, I know 2 fathom f113 would be about the same in performance but they won't look as good. The new single SVS ultra is supposed outperform their ultra/2. I wonder what the new ultra/2 can do. These are very exciting times.

The Gotham will be almost identical to two F113's stacked. But your right the Submersive, BMF-1, and New Ultra, it will be interesting if the F113 can hold it's current reign at the top.

It's right on the main page (bottom left): http://www.hsuresearch.com/

The VTF-3 Mk3, VTF-2 Mk3, and VTF-1 pages haven't been posted yet. For those, you've got to see the thread on their forums.

I don't have 33" under my screen (where the sub would be located) to fit the VTF-3 HO w/turbo. I guess I will be heading back to the PB12/+2, not that that is abad thing

Thanks for the info.

A lot of PB12-Plus/2 ownershave posted thoughts along the lines of: "This sub rocks my room ... "

You are right, it does, especially in its 25 Hz mode. I have the Plus/2 in our family room, which is 27x24 with vaulted ceilings going to 16 feet. It also has 2 large openings into a very large kitchen, and french doors into our living room.

ON POTC, the bass was deep, powerful and rich... And even having done all these blind tests, I will think the same things you are: "How much more does a person want than THIS?"

All the subwoofers from 85 and up are very good to outstanding performers. The 85 to 89 range performers have some obvious shortcomings to their higher ranked competitors in some areas.

For example, in the case of the UFW-12, it is extension. The Plus/2 ... music articulation.

For the subwoofers as mentioned so far, they also have different criteria in which they can work. The Plus/2 is a great choice (as are the other Plus subs) for larger rooms and primarily home theater use.

The VTF-3 HO, DD-18 and Fathom are also excellent large room subs, but can also be used for high end music reproduction, thus the higher scores.

The UFW-12 is better suited to music systems, with decent HT performance.

If anyone is interested, I have been working on a lettering system ... just to aid those looking for additional help.

It looks like this, and would be added to each sub ...as in recommended for:

M=music
HT=Home Theater
LR=Rooms over 3000^3 feet
VLR=Rooms over 4500^3 feet
SR=Rooms under 1800^3 feet (perfect for the X-sub)

Hey Craig, glad to see you back. Congrats on your sons swimming run!

Have you considered or may later test any of the eD subs? They have a dual 15" for $1600 and an upcoming dual 18"! Considering their prices, they may have an edge or outperform in the "bang for the buck" category. Only testing will tell.

My, you have alot of posts and you started at a later date.

Thanks, Vito. My son was thrilled to even qualify to attend this meet. It was held at Cleveland State University, and 73 schools attended. Out of appx. 77 swimmers in the 100 Fly, he was seeded 70th as a 10th grader. He ended up placing 19th, making the consolation finals.

We were up at 5:30 Saturday morning, at the pool by 7, and the meet started at 8, and finished at 7:30 Saturday night.

It was a very good day.

Back to subwoofers. I would welcome an eD subwoofer here - I dropped them a line about 4 weeks ago, and never heard back. They may just be to swamped to worry about involvement here. They are still welcome to be involved, of course.

Back to the way this will eventually work ... this guide is not intended to pick an exact subwoofer for anyone. Hopefully, as this develops, it will serve as something to narrow choices.

Also hopefully, people will recognize how to use this within the same company's product lines. For example, Two SVS 25-31 PC+ will at LEAST score where the PB12-Plus/2 does. So ... if you like the idea of 2 cylinders which can be hidden in a couple of corners, they are a solid choice.

By the way, the PB12-Plus/2 in its 25 Hz mode would get this as a recommendation "PB12-Plus/2 .... HT/VLR."

One look at Ilkka's graph from his test in the 25 Hz mode will show why it is a powerful HT performer.





The Hsu VTF-3 HO would get "VTF-3HO ... HT/M/VLR"

Here is the much less capable (than the VTF-3 HO) VTF-3 Mark II's graph. The VTF-3 HO outperforms the Mark II in every sense, including having a much longer throw driver, larger cabinet, more port area ... it is rather easy to see why the VTF-3 HO scores so well. One also NEEDS to hear this sub on music. It is close to the better sealed designs in articulation.



KUDOS to Ilkka for providing these charts, they so allow a nice view of objective data. Too bad he lives 5000 miles from here. It would be fun to Blind Test a sub and send him out to measure them afterwards ...

Yes bad thing sub fanatics live far away from one another.Or we would have a major GTG and I could bring most my subs.

Keep up the good work Craig.

I am picturing you at the border, explaining what the 30 subwoofers are doing in the back of your vehicle ...

Border Agent: "Let me get this straight. You are taking all these boxes called subwoofers to a house in Pennsylvania, just to listen to them. A bunch of other fanatics are meeting you at this house. Is that about right?"

The Ear: "Yes, officer, that is correct"

Border Agent: "Someone alert Homeland Security. At the very least, this group of people needs to be investigated".