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Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 6  

post #151 of 6764
12/17/06 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Thanks, Vito. My son was thrilled to even qualify to attend this meet. It was held at Cleveland State University, and 73 schools attended. Out of appx. 77 swimmers in the 100 Fly, he was seeded 70th as a 10th grader. He ended up placing 19th, making the consolation finals.

We were up at 5:30 Saturday morning, at the pool by 7, and the meet started at 8, and finished at 7:30 Saturday night.

It was a very good day.

Craig....congratulations to your son (you and your wife as well)......that is TRULY exciting stuff. The sense of accomplishment for the kids is a wonderful thing.

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post #152 of 6764
12/17/06 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Craig....congratulations to your son (you and your wife as well)......that is TRULY exciting stuff. The sense of accomplishment for the kids is a wonderful thing.

Thanks, Curtis. It is really gratifiying watching and helping my son get better. It has been 6 years since he was diagnosed as a type one Diabetic, and he was pushed into swimming to help keep is "hypo-glycemic" levels under control. At first, he hated it, because most kids started at age 4, and he was almost 10.

The way this now 15 year old handles himself is humbling, as he has to constantly be aware of what is going on with what is commonly called "blood sugar levels".

It certainly keeps things in perspective around our household.

On a lighter note, he does have a tendency to get cocky at times, and needs to be reeled in. I think the cockiness comes from his mom, but she actually has the audacity to say it is from me ... can you imagine that ?
post #153 of 6764
12/17/06 at 9:08am
Quote:


I am picturing you at the border, explaining what the 30 subwoofers are doing in the back of your vehicle ...

Border Agent: "Let me get this straight. You are taking all these boxes called subwoofers to a house in Pennsylvania, just to listen to them. A bunch of other fanatics are meeting you at this house. Is that about right?"

The Ear: "Yes, officer, that is correct"

Border Agent: "Someone alert Homeland Security. At the very least, this group of people needs to be investigated".

If you could somehow hook them up all at once and play a few scenes from WOTW, you might just leave a 2km crater centered on what used to be Craig's house in Pennsylvania!
post #154 of 6764
12/17/06 at 9:09am
W.r.t. the HO (without Turbo), I would have to place it right next to the rear couch and the driver would be pointing pretty much into the couch and the "main" seat.

Assuming the sub is properly calibrated, would there be any issues with localization or other with the sub so close to the listening position?

STeve
post #155 of 6764
12/17/06 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

If anyone is interested, I have been working on a lettering system ... just to aid those looking for additional help.

It looks like this, and would be added to each sub ...as in recommended for:

M=music
HT=Home Theater
LR=Rooms over 3000^3 feet
VLR=Rooms over 4500^3 feet
SR=Rooms under 1800^3 feet (perfect for the X-sub)

Suggestions

M=music this seems fine
HT=Home Theater as does this
LR=Rooms over 3000^3 feet But this makes more sense to me LRovr3TF
VLR=Rooms over 4500^3 feet But this makes more sense to me VLRovr45HF SR=Rooms under 1800^3 feet This makes more sense to me SRudr18HF


Coding means LR = rooms ovr = over 3TF = 3 Thousand Feet

SR = Rooms udr = Under 18HF = 18 Hundred Feet

You could also drop the room designation and just go with the numerical aspect for example Udr18HF and Ovr3TF The assumption being people know you are referring to space/room size with the three letters and number designation.
post #156 of 6764
12/17/06 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Thanks, Curtis. It is really gratifiying watching and helping my son get better. It has been 6 years since he was diagnosed as a type one Diabetic, and he was pushed into swimming to help keep is "hypo-glycemic" levels under control. At first, he hated it, because most kids started at age 4, and he was almost 10.

The way this now 15 year old handles himself is humbling, as he has to constantly be aware of what is going on with what is commonly called "blood sugar levels".

It certainly keeps things in perspective around our household.

On a lighter note, he does have a tendency to get cocky at times, and needs to be reeled in. I think the cockiness comes from his mom, but she actually has the audacity to say it is from me ... can you imagine that ?


A little cockiness is not a bad thing, IMO, especially if someone is around to keep it in check.

Look at what Adam Morrison has done in college basketball, and now the NBA with diabetes. The tools available now (I am no expert) are allowing people with diabetes to function quite well.
post #157 of 6764
12/17/06 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post


A little cockiness is not a bad thing, IMO, especially if someone is around to keep it in check.

Look at what Adam Morrison has done in college basketball, and now the NBA with diabetes. The tools available now (I am no expert) are allowing people with diabetes to function quite well.

I was just thinking the same thing. Technology for better glucose control (eg insulin pumps, improved medications) have improved the quality of life of many people with diabetes.

Craig, its a great thing to see your son doing so well!
post #158 of 6764
12/17/06 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by new27 View Post

This was taken fron AV123 boards, it is GOLD imo and deserving of it's own thread. Bravo Craig!

1. JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points.
2. Velodyne DD-18: 100 points.
3. ACI Maestro: 97 points.
4. JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points.
5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
6T. Axiom EP-500: 90 points
7. SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.
8. Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
9. Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
10. Rocket Tyke: 60 points


When evaluating these subs, I wanted to develop a system which would be easy to follow ... yet allow for a HUGE difference in the performance between, say, a TYKE and a Fathom 113.

In a direct linear fashion, the Tyke might look like it is 58.25% the sub the 113 is. Of course, it is not.

How the scaling works is this: each 3 points represents a 15% higher level of overall performance. It is also cumulative.

For example, The Fathom 113 is 43 points higher than the TYKE. Grab a calculator, and you will see you have 14.33 consecutive 15% improvements.

Take 1.15 x 1, and do it 14 times, and you get 7.08. Next, multiply 7.075 x 1.05, and you get 7.43.

In other words, the Fathom has 743% higher performance than does the Tyke.

The Hsu VTF-3 HO W/Turbo has 38.9% higher performance than does the SVS PB12-Plus/2 (in this case, the overall musicality added to extension wins the day).

The Fathom 113 has 46.5% higher performance than does the 112.

As an aside, to keep this from being overcomplicated, each single point outside the 3 point criteria is scored at 1.05, not according to a true scale, which would be 1.0477.

From above:

Quote:


Next, multiply 7.075 x 1.05, and you get 7.43.

Craig, I am lost as to where you got the 1.05 from. Please help

Just so everyone knows Craig is not saying that every 3 points is a 15% difference, ie, 9 points = 45%. As quoted above, 7 points = 38.9%, 8 points = 46.5%.

In the example above Craig is saying to calculate the number of 3-point units in the difference in points (43/3=14.33), multiply 1.15 (15% increase) by itself this many times (1.15 to the power of 14 = 7.075), multiply by 1.05 (don't know why), then convert to %.

Anyway I am very curious as to why this rating system was used. One really needs a chart of point differences vs. % to understand the ratings.
post #159 of 6764
12/17/06 at 4:09pm
Craig, while you are waiting for the next group of subs to arrive, would it be possible for you to present the rankings for the subs on music only? Say, performance 25Hz and above?
post #160 of 6764
12/17/06 at 4:37pm
Craig,

Funny,but I tell ya you would need a one ton pickup and pack it well.

My mad test was to connect the most capable subs and play a few scenes in LOTR and few fake movie explosions. You simply cannot stand the SPL and it feels like sitting in a car with a few JL woofers pumping. Rat Shack SPL meter maxed out.
post #161 of 6764
12/17/06 at 9:10pm
Initially I was thinking of getting dual PB12/+2 but thanks to your help Craig I think I am leaning more towards dual VTF-3 HO. My space is over 6000 cubic feet, I use my space for 95% HT and of course want the best and most for my money so if I can get a better (subjective) sub for less money, then I am very thrilled.

One thing I am surprised at is that the HSU outperformed the SVS considering the SVS has more power, do you have any idea why that is Craig?

Thank you Craig
post #162 of 6764
12/17/06 at 9:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

One thing I am surprised at is that the HSU outperformed the SVS considering the SVS has more power, do you have any idea why that is Craig?

Power is just one piece of the entire equation.
post #163 of 6764
12/18/06 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post


One thing I am surprised at is that the HSU outperformed the SVS considering the SVS has more power, do you have any idea why that is Craig?

By "Outplaying" you are referring to "playing louder". There are many facets of "power" that come into play when discussing speakers. The actual electrical delivery of watts is merely one of those aspects. The efficiency of the driver is also important. For example, if Driver "A" can deliver 90 dB @ 1 Watt, while driver "B" can deliver 87 dB, Driver "A" will deliver the same SPL @ 500 watts as will driver "B" @ 1000 watts.

The enclosure type and size also come into play, as well as the ports.

The amp's primary job is to have enough power to move the driver to its limits of excursion. For example, if, at 23 Hz, the driver hits its limits with 400 watts of input, a 1000 watt amplifier will not increase the SPL at that frequency.

When the sub is being designed, the amp needs to be powerful enough to "move" the driver to its limits across the frequency bandwidth of the intended response curve.
post #164 of 6764
12/18/06 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunnell View Post

Craig, while you are waiting for the next group of subs to arrive, would it be possible for you to present the rankings for the subs on music only? Say, performance 25Hz and above?

Please, let me kick that around for a bit. Music was considered for 1/2 of the performance as listed for each sub, but I was hoping a coding system would make sense, rather than 3 separate lists (overall, theater, and music).
post #165 of 6764
12/18/06 at 7:58am
Don't worry about it then, Craig -- I thought you might already have music ratings separated out. I would only see two numbers for each sub (and a room size notation), as I think the numbers you are presenting now are the Home Theater rankings, remembering that Home Theater includes the reproduction of musical scores as well as effects.

I appreciate you presenting what you can, especially since the next group of forthcoming subs will be of such widely varying designs. The experts who chose 80Hz as the dividing line, instead of somewhere in the 20-40Hz octave, have made the design of 'whatever you connect to the LFE out' much more difficult, and it's easy to see products racing for high SPLs at low Hz letting musical reproduction over 40Hz take a back seat. If consumers wanting high quality music reproduction using the LFE out are going to have to use a high-low sub configuration with an external crossover, it bears noting.
post #166 of 6764
12/18/06 at 9:20am
craig,

After spending more time with the MBM-12, do you feel it is a worthwhile addition to the VTF-3HO? Or would you rather put that money toward a second VTF-3HO?
post #167 of 6764
12/19/06 at 4:18am
Good job Craig

If possible could you throw out the best 3 S(Small room) subwoofers?
post #168 of 6764
12/19/06 at 4:29am
ggunell - I am going to try to separate out the music performance overall, not just from 25 Hz up .... look for it over the holidays.

bfdtv ... The MBM-12 works great, but right now I have the VTF-3 HO almost set nearfield, so the MBM is not that noticable. The next plan is to put a pair of HO's into a more waf friendly location, which happens to be across the room, in front, like most guys do. Again, look for this over the holidays.

Dan - By "small room" sub, do you mean "small room, small budget?" ... The 113 would be my choice for a 12x12x8 foot room, too. Think of the headroom !

Perhaps it would help if pricing was listed next to each sub ...
post #169 of 6764
12/19/06 at 4:40am
Thanks, Craig!
post #170 of 6764
12/19/06 at 5:32am
Quote:


The next plan is to put a pair of HO's into a more waf friendly location

Interesting. W.r.t. the HO w/turbo, my wife things a more friendly location would be in the backyard. 6 feet in the ground!!

I think I'll still get it anyhow, just to tick her off!
post #171 of 6764
12/19/06 at 5:41am
Haha, yeah that would be pretty insane.
The budget is a grey of say 400-600ish.

I am really leaning towards a new VTF though. It appears to be a cointoss of VTF-2 Mk3 vs the VTF-3 Mk3. How much of a difference in sound quality between these two subs would these pose to someone in movies, action games for my X360, and rap music? I know they should have no problem going loud enough in this room.
post #172 of 6764
12/19/06 at 9:17am
Dan ... I am sure either of those subs will work great - go for the bigger if you can swing it.
post #173 of 6764
12/19/06 at 11:16am
Anyone have thoughts as to how a VMPS Larger Subwoofer (with all of the options) would compare to the subs that Craig has looked at? I'm thinking of adding a sub, and I do have a spare Adcom GFA555II. After doing a fair amount of research, right now it's between the VMPS and the HSU VTF-3 HO.
post #174 of 6764
12/19/06 at 10:08pm
Craig, I am looking forward to reading your impressions of dual VTF-3 HO's as this is the patch I plan to take.

If I could make some requests would it be possible to compare the VTF-3 HO tuned to 16Hz compared to the VTF-3 HO w/ turbo? Also, do you have a complete breakdown on your impressions of the VTF-3 HO w/ and w/out turbo? I remember reading on AV123 that you were thinking of putting together something like that for each of the subs that you are comparing.

I hope that I am not asking for too much and look forward to hearing from you.

Also, which sub do you consider to the the dollar for dollar best out right now, as in the most value?
post #175 of 6764
12/20/06 at 4:49am
Haven't been to this forum in a while and its ironic to find once again an outstanding contribution from Mr. Chase... a well thought out comparison with a measured balance of the subjective and analytical. Nice to see him once again demonstrating why he is one of the leading sub experts.

Its a refreshing change from the arcane and often incomplete measurements people usually cite when comparing subs. Now, if someone ever publishes CEA type distortion weighted SPL metrics for comparison that also would be something new and useful . Maybe we will see those in 2007. How about a summer project Craig?
post #176 of 6764
12/20/06 at 7:45am
Would you rather have 1 PC-Ultra Cylinder or 2 PB-12nsd?

Price is right at about $1200....

So which would you rather have?

I love to spark up debates about 1 vs 2 and comparing subs. I was looking into that PC-Ultra and it is quite amazing.
post #177 of 6764
12/20/06 at 9:29am
Quote:


Also, which sub do you consider to the the dollar for dollar best out right now, as in the most value?

That's a no-brainer at this stage of the game.
post #178 of 6764
12/20/06 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Would you rather have 1 PC-Ultra Cylinder or 2 PB-12nsd?

Price is right at about $1200....

So which would you rather have?

I love to spark up debates about 1 vs 2 and comparing subs. I was looking into that PC-Ultra and it is quite amazing.

Is this an open question for anyone to answer? If so, then neither would be my preference at this point.
post #179 of 6764
12/20/06 at 9:51am
This thread is getting tired.

You would think the title said "Official GODsub rankings thread".
post #180 of 6764
12/20/06 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Would you rather have 1 PC-Ultra Cylinder or 2 PB-12nsd?

Price is right at about $1200....

So which would you rather have?

I love to spark up debates about 1 vs 2 and comparing subs. I was looking into that PC-Ultra and it is quite amazing.

Quality over quantity. Get the PC-Ultra. I have one in my TV room and still enjoy it greatly.
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