Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 13  

Good morning guys! And yes, very interested too.

Jeff if the 3.3 with Turbo is THAT much better than our PB-12NSD. And close to, if not better than, the performance of the SVS PB-12Plus2, then...I think we might have to at least consider a switch...

Especially considering the price is 799 plus 100 shipping, so $899. Compare that to 1 PB-12Plus2 for $1200 plus 100 for shipping=1300. Or even our idea of Dual PB-12NSDs that would cost us about $1200 as well.

I watched WOTW the Lightning and Pod emerging scene last night and the lightning scene left me wanting more.....i wanted those strikes to really shake me, but they really didnt.

The pod emerging scene on the other hand shook the hell out of my house.

This all leads me back to the fact that the lightning scene contains a substantial amount of bass under 18hz, thus probably the reason I was kind of let down.

So would the 3.3 in turbo mode really improve that area I am lacking, while in addition also improving all other areas from 18hz and up....

or would 2 PB-12nsd's put me in the bass bliss place that I so desire to be in...


oh the questions that run through my mind.......lol


ps....Craig.........when you are testing the 3.3 are you using it in both turbo and non turbo mode????? Thanks

I really have no doubt that the 3.3 with and without turbo is a better sub than the PB12 NSD. And I have heard that with turbo the low frequency bass you are desiring will be achieved. So if you do decide to upgrade, what will you do with your SVS?

I know the 3.3 is better, it costs more, but HOW MUCH BETTER is the question i need answered....

ONE 3.3 with Turbo for $900 vs TWO PB-12NSD's for about $1100.....how would that war go...

(If I make a move I'd probably list it on craigslist cleveland.
I cannot ship it....I don't have the box, nor would I want the hassle of having to lug this thing around.....
I'd have to sell it locally....but this is just a remote idea at this point until i get some CLEAR SOLID statistical data and evidence!)

Trust me I love my PB-12........

Could someone with a 3.3 take some good pics of it? Picks of the enclosure, port area, amp, and driver?

Thanks,

-Eli

See ? This is how things get started. I did not even open this thread, but who gets the abuse ?

This Sunday, I will run the Lightning scene with the Ultra, VTV-3.3 and HO (with and sans turbo), and the PB12-NSD ... this is a different room than last time, so it will be necessary to make sure all the subs get run again.

just out of curiosity, have you EQ'd your current sub, tried different placements, bass traps, etc.? if not, you might be able to squeeze more performance out of your current setup with a little or no extra $$$. that seems to make more sense to me than just throwing money at the problem, based mostly off of results posted by someone else in an entirely different room with different equipment, no? if that doesn't work, then maybe it would be time to invest more money in an extra or different subwoofer?

The lightning scene does not have nearly the room shaking behavior that the Pods emerging scene does. Done properly, you should feel a shot in your chest from some powerful 15 Hz "pulses" in the lightning scene.

One reason the VTF-3 HO did so well in that scene is it really is flat to about 13 Hz, and can deliver palpable bass in that region.

Twin VTF-3 HO's with turbo is a real experience - for $2000, they will move some serious air.

Craig, I wonder if you realize how many of us you have on the edge of our seats waiting for these results?

I have pretty much made up my mind on the HO but I am curious to see how the 3.3 compares to it.

Thank you for all of your hard work and time

We are trying to get the best performing subwoofer for the dollar and if I can get a better perfroming sub than my current SVS and pay a little more than I want to do that. I still can return my SVS for something else. Also some of the options that you suggested are not an option for me. I really don't have very many options for placement and the bass traps are out as well. Unless I can get some that look like artwork.

I will be awaiting the results of the weekends tests

For my set up the Pod emerging scene really did shake the house and couch and really everything else. When the ground is twisting around it was really like an earthquake....lol


Jeff I'm in your boat, can't do the bass traps, can't do anything with placement (although this is probably the best place)

When I get a theater room that will be a different story...

Maybe I am just expecting too much from one scene of a movie and too much from a $600 subwoofer.

Someone mentioned other factors that might be affecting response.....but in all honesty an 18hz tuned sub is going to have trouble reaching the 10-15hz pluses. They are there, just not as powerful as I'd like......

Thus my theory on getting 2 of these subs, then I'd have double the punch in that scene.

Don't forget to go to the newstand and pick up the latest issue of Sensible Sound. It has a review of the VTF-3MK3.

Remember...you guys have to give Craig time to listen. For the time being, that review should hold you over for another 30 minutes.

I have been looking everywhere for that freaking issue. All I have come across is the previous issue.

I am with you. I watched a movie last night and I also played some music and although I am still very impressed, I still find myslef wanting more.

I think it just hit the newstands in the last couple of days.

Hello everyone, I did it, as you guys say here I pulled the trigger today I ordered the HSU VTF-2.3 can't wait till I get it

I was passing by circuit city again today after I ordered the VTF-2.3 so I stopped in I finally got to listen to there subs, oh my god they sounded terrible I don't know how to explain it, it was like just one long low tone that carried from one beat to the next. I think my little Athena M225 blow them away

as far as the bookshelf speakers non of them compared to my Athena B2's not even the bose bookshelf

I think I'll be real happy with the VTF I'll let you's know

bwahahahaha

I totally laughed when i read the YOU'S line.

I was born and raised in Western PA and this just made me laugh. Are you's from the eastern part of PA???

I know in my every day talk a YINS comes out every once in a while! LOL

ya Whitehall about 4 miles north of allentown I never new that was local talk lol

i was trying to wait for craig to give his results for the vtf 3.3, but i couldn't wait any longer. i ordered it last week, and got it today. all i can say is it is incredible, especially at the price. i used to sell audio, paradigm, def tech, sunfire, klipsch, velo, etc. i can honestly say this is the best sub i've ever heard. i've only listened to a few movie scenes, and music, but it sounds really good. the only sub i ever sold that sounded nearly as good was the paradigm servo 15. however that was larger and over $2000. i have an orb setup, and was actually quite happy with the super 8 sub, but after selling so many subs i knew i was missing something. it blends well with the orbs. i originally was leaning to the SVS PB-12Plus2, but for the money i don't think the 3.3 can be beat, unless i come across some spare change for a JL f113.

You could easily fit 1-2 Tri-Traps in the corner behind the TV, one in the corner by the sub, and possibly in other corners in the room.

Cyberbri,

I've followed your posts for a while now and noticed you are a big supporter for room acoustics treatments and bass traps. I've looked at the GIK Acoustics products and those tri-traps got my attention.

Is there such thing as "too much bass traps"?

Let's say if I put a tri-trap in each corner of my room, would I be in danger of loosing some bass impact?

Would you recommend a tri-trap for each front corner, at least?

If anyone is looking to get their hands on THE HAUNTING DTS I just ordered one from Half.com for only $8.00 (that is with shipping).

I know there are a few more left....if anyone is really interested I can help you find it because you have to search a little.....

Guys ... After a blitz of listening tests, including several other listeners (My brother's lead engineer and 2 musician friends) ... here are the scores and explanation for the PB12-NSD and the VTF-3 Mark III.

PB12-NSD: 86 Points. The NSD is a fantastic bargain @ $599. Up to its limits it even sounded better to the panel than did the PB12-Plus/2. In fact, a pair of PB12-NSD's would likely score about an 89. For home theater, it is powerful and makes movies a lot more fun that a $600 subwoofer should.

It lacks a bit in articulation for music, but is still in the pretty good category. Kick drims have a slight "rounding" to the sound, and stand up bass is a bit slower in the "catch and release" than the higher rated subs.

It is highly recommended, and any specific questions are welcome.

VTF-3 Mark III: 91 points. This subwoofer is pure joy. It does so many things well that it almost tied the VTF-3 HO overall. The HO is a bit more powerful in the deepest bass, and slightly tighter in its reproduction of music. Hsu Research has mentioned that the Mark III may even best the HO in upper bass, but no one on the panel heard a superiority of the Mark III to the HO on any track.

Considering the very reasonable "long term" price of $699, It is my opinion, and the opinion of the other listeners here, that the VTF-3 Mark III is the best overall value of all the subs we have had here during this process.

This sub is the answer to the question: "What subwoofer for under $800 is excellent for both the reproduction of music and movies" ?

We will be compiling some additional objective data on all the subwoofers being tested - and will be posting some graphs of various movie and soundtrack scenes by early February.

I dont have the ability to put one in all four corners of my room due to it is not a typical room. I would only be able to put two in the front corners behind my tv. Would I notice an improvment?

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So I guess we have this now:


1. $3200 + (shipping?) JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points.
2. $4995 + (shipping?) Velodyne DD-18: 100 points.
3. $2150 + (shipping?) ACI Maestro: 97 points.
4. $2200 + (shipping?) JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points.
5. $999 + ($105 Shipping) Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. $899 + ( $80 shipping) Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. $649 + ($75 shipping) VTF-3 Mark III w/o turbo: 91 points
7. $1299 + ( $99 shipping) SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
7T. $1200 + ( $0 shipping included) Axiom EP-500: 90 points
8. $1299 + ( $99 shipping) SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.
9. $599 + ($50+ shipping) PB12-NSD: 86 Points
10. $1099 + ($100 shipping) Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
11. $199 + ($43 shipping) Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
12. $99 + (shipping?) Rocket Tyke: 60 points
Craig.......is that VTF 3.3 rating with or without Turbo?

Good question. Hopefully non turbo as I am more interested in output not extension.

And his impressions are pretty much on par with mine. Great on movies, pretty good on music but not great. Lacks a little detail and accuracy that I have heard from other subs.
I think I am returning it and picking up the HSU.

Hi Craig,
I'd love to see you sometime get a Mirage S-12 in the list, to see where you rank it aginst the others using your methods. Hopefully one of your buddies or someone near you has one...

I'm a little more concerned about the Extension in the under 18hz range....Craig, any comments with the 3.3 vs the 12NSD in the low end extension comparision......

(I'm hoping that is non turbo too.........the turbo would only increase the score.)


Dual PB-12nsds at a score of 89...

Dual VTF 3.3's would have to be 93-94 range then...

(correct me if I am assuming incorrectly.)

Bass traps - yes, yes, and more yeses.

I have 2 244 panels (GIK) in each front corner, possibly the rough equivalent of a Tri-Trap in each corner - although they stand out more than the Tri-Trap wedges. I don't have rear corners to add treatment to. But as soon as I added these to the front corners, I noticed an improvement in the clarity of the bass. It's like having a plamsa or something with a good black level, but not setting the Brightness level at first. Then you calibrate, get Black set at the correct level, and all of a sudden you can see a ton of detail in the shadows. It was like that with the bass. Ringing and boominess was gone, although I hadn't noticed any without the treatments. With treatments, it was cleaner and I knew that ringing and boominess had been there before. But I could hear the texture of the bass (VTF-3 MK2), different notes, etc.

If I had a standard room, I'd either buy or DIY the equivalent of 4 Tri-Traps in each corner - basically a solid column in each corner. If I could, I would do that in the front 2 corners of my room, to some extent. I would like to add more treatment.

But no, you can't have "too much" bass trap treatments - unless all you had were bass treatments and no walls. Basically they absorb the colliding bass waves in the corners to cancel out bad interaction. This helps smooth frequency response across more areas, can help dips in FR, and has the added bonus of getting rid of ringing and boominess caused by the bass waves bouncing all over. And because of this, it can actually give you more bass because of the improved/flatter response - with flat response, you can turn your sub up louder because more frequencies are at the same volume/level, rather than having some at 78dB, some at 71dB, and so on. The more the better, basically.

Yes, a Tri-Trap in each corner would do wonders. Stack 2 in each corner to cover the whole floor-to-ceiling corner for even better response.