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Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 145  

post #4321 of 6764
11/27/07 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrittonJohnson View Post

Alright, I just got done reading through almost all of the pages here and what Craig has offered. Thanks so much Craig.....excellent work! It has really helped narrow down my decision. Subwoofers currently on my short list are:

1. Epik Conquest
2. Epik Tower
3. Elemental Designs A7-450
4. Two Elemental Designs A5-350's
5. Possibly one or two of the smaller Epiks

Just prior to reading this thread my top picks would have been:

1. SVS PB13 Ultra
2. Velodyne DD15 or DD18 (used)
3. Fathom F113 (although this was out of my price range and there are no used ones available since it is a relatively new product).

In my mind, in the near $1000 best bang for the buck it would seem logical that the soon to be released (can someone tell me if any of these have made it to actual homes yet?) Elemental Designs A7-450 will be top dog. This is based on the amazing performance of its $600 smaller brother (A5-350) and Craigs overall top pick A7-900. Obviously the guys at ED know what they are doing and I have no reason to believe the A7-450 wont rank above the SVS PB13U and rank at or above that of the Epik Conquest on Craigs chart. Ive been wrong before though One question, when will anybody get their hands on an A7-450 (Craig, are you anywhere near getting one of these for a test out of curiosity) and is there any way to give it a more upscale finish? Thanks in advance for hearing one of my first posts in a long time.

PS- Am I to understand the A7-450 will cost $1300 with shipping included as stated on the blog below? If this is the case, it will come in, shipped for roughly $350 less than the SVS and $450 less than the Epik Conquest. If it peforms on par or better then why would anybody order anything different? Its got a good five year warranty to boot. The SVS has a three year warranty, while the Epik has a seven year on driver and two year on electronics.

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=190

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=191

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=183

http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=182

Britton,
I can confirm that the A7-450 is $1300 shipped within the continental U.S. as I ordered mine last Wednesday. It is not posted on their website as they are being made on a custom basis right now. Give them a call if you decide to go that direction as its roughly a 4 week wait right now. *UPDATE* eD confirmed this morning that ALL HT subs need to be ordered by today to receive by X-Mas. I researched for roughly two weeks before deciding on the eD sub. My max to spend was $1300, which put me with an Epik Tower, SVS PB12-plus/2, or HSU VTF-3 with turbo. It was a difficult decision, but I ended up going with my gut, which told me the A7-450 was close to, if not the best sub next to the A7-900.
post #4322 of 6764
11/27/07 at 8:31am
I'm sure that A7-450 is going to be a lot sub for the money. I'm curious how it will compare with the Conquest.
post #4323 of 6764
11/27/07 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmlowz View Post

Hello,


Quote:Highly recommended on all counts to try this with a Conquest.

I have my Conquest horizontal also, front wall centered under the screen. It works great in that position.

rmlowz

rmlowz, if I recall correctly from some weeks ago, aren't you the guy that had the Def Tech Trinity, Danley 20, DD18, Fathom 113, dual THX Ultra Klipsh, among others?

If so, I've been waiting to hear your feedback on how the Conquest compares in your room with the aforementioned subs.....can I assume it is a keeper?
post #4324 of 6764
11/27/07 at 9:39am
Hello,



Yes I posted my opinion in the Epik thread. It is a Keeper for sure!

rmlowz
post #4325 of 6764
11/27/07 at 10:38am
does anyone know the weight of the conquest? couldnt find it on their web site. thx.
post #4326 of 6764
11/27/07 at 10:41am
Chad has said its around 250 pounds.. Its like 366 pounds shipped though because it comes in a huge crate.
post #4327 of 6764
11/27/07 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobester View Post

Can you get a fork lift through the door?

i hope so, i will need it to remove my 6 old def techs

i have double doors going into the foyer but i'm not sure about the height clearance for the fork-lift
post #4328 of 6764
11/27/07 at 11:23am
I stumbled on this very imformative thread and wanted to thank everyone for their input and especially Craig for his efforts. Seeing the size of some of these beasts and that some folks have multiples of them, size is obviously not a big consideration for some. The WAF has been mentioned and size obviously plays a large part in that. As such, I took the list and looked up dimensions specs and calculated displacement. Note these volumes are not the internal enclosure volumes but the external volumes, most including feet and grills, for comparing the sub sizes...

Elemental Designs A7-900: 19.54ft^3
Epik Conquest: 13.75ft^3
SVS PB13-Ultra: 7.05ft^3
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): unknown
JL Audio Fathom 113: 3.63ft^3
Velodyne DD-18: 5.44ft^3
Def Tech Trinity: 5.95ft^3
ACI Maestro: 5.81ft^3 (amp not included)
eD A5-350: 6.83ft^3
JL Audio Fathom 112: 2.86ft^3

It's obvious that the $ for some of the JL products buys you this caliber performance in 1/2 - 1/4 the volume of the other subs listed. Almost shocking how small the F113 is compared to the top 3 subs. I thought the SVS PB-13 Ultra was a bit smaller than the eD A5-350 but the opposite is true... tossup for the most part. There's been some PB13-Ultra vs Conquest discussion and it's amazing that for the $ and size that this is even a comparison.

Just thought this might give some insight into sizes for those of us that size plays a major factor in a sub purchase. It's looking like for a combination of performance, size, price, and aesthetics, I'm leaning towards the SVS PB13-Ultra.

Matt
post #4329 of 6764
11/27/07 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

Velodyne has something like that at their site but it will only recommend their own subs of course:

http://www.velodyne.com/wproduct/whp...x?sid=471t690w

Interesting link OTK, and Thanks. But my first choices turned out to be their own 1812 or the dd18 lol But it's a beginning
post #4330 of 6764
11/27/07 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by txmatt View Post

I stumbled on this very imformative thread and wanted to thank everyone for their input and especially Craig for his efforts. Seeing the size of some of these beasts and that some folks have multiples of them, size is obviously not a big consideration for some. The WAF has been mentioned and size obviously plays a large part in that. As such, I took the list and looked up dimensions specs and calculated displacement. Note these volumes are not the internal enclosure volumes but the external volumes, most including feet and grills, for comparing the sub sizes...

Elemental Designs A7-900: 19.54ft^3
Epik Conquest: 13.75ft^3
SVS PB13-Ultra: 7.05ft^3
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): unknown
JL Audio Fathom 113: 3.63ft^3
Velodyne DD-18: 5.44ft^3
Def Tech Trinity: 5.95ft^3
ACI Maestro: 5.81ft^3 (amp not included)
eD A5-350: 6.83ft^3
JL Audio Fathom 112: 2.86ft^3

It's obvious that the $ for some of the JL products buys you this caliber performance in 1/2 - 1/4 the volume of the other subs listed. Almost shocking how small the F113 is compared to the top 3 subs. I thought the SVS PB-13 Ultra was a bit smaller than the eD A5-350 but the opposite is true... tossup for the most part. There's been some PB13-Ultra vs Conquest discussion and it's amazing that for the $ and size that this is even a comparison.

Just thought this might give some insight into sizes for those of us that size plays a major factor in a sub purchase. It's looking like for a combination of performance, size, price, and aesthetics, I'm leaning towards the SVS PB13-Ultra.

Matt

That's cool info, Matt.

I'm really surprised at the small displacement of the Trinity. It looks huge.
post #4331 of 6764
11/27/07 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Couldn't they just be placed right next to each other and still have the stacked effect?

And wouldn't this depend on what FRQ point one is looking at?

Don't 20hz sound waves travel 18 feet or so? ( just a guess) but say you had 2 subs within that distance (lets less than 18 feet) then the bass would be boosted (doubled) +6db's at that Frq point....

I thought thats how I understood it but am probably wrong.....

Speed of sound is roughly 340m/s (temperature dependent) Length of 1 cycle (wavelength) at 20hz is thus (340m/s) / (20/s)= 17m. A "perfect" superposition (doubling) of waves would thus be about quarter of that or 4.25m (or 14ft). That also assumes you are exactly between the two speakers.

I'd suggest bass boosts would definitely be frequency and spatially dependant. Course room effects would not be insignificant and can't be easily calculated. Hence trial an error on speaker positioning.

I haven't really added anything new here, but I hope I've helped to explain the bass boost by frequency 'theory' calc. re: wave superposition
post #4332 of 6764
11/27/07 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by veris View Post

Speed of sound is roughly 340m/s (temperature dependent) Length of 1 cycle (wavelength) at 20hz is thus (340m/s) / (20/s)= 17m. A "perfect" superposition (doubling) of waves would thus be about quarter of that or 4.25m (or 14ft). That also assumes you are exactly between the two speakers.

I'd suggest bass boosts would definitely be frequency and spatially dependant. Course room effects would not be insignificant and can't be easily calculated. Hence trial an error on speaker positioning.

I haven't really added anything new here, but I hope I've helped to explain the bass boost by frequency 'theory' calc. re: wave superposition

Interesting, so in other words, if 2 subs were located apart, you could theoretically get the "bass boost" but it would depend on specific Frq's and actual distance apart as well as any room reflections etc etc......

I guess thats why the easiest way to run 2 subs is to co-locate them or stack them, keep them next to each other etc etc.....

Am I making any sense.....
post #4333 of 6764
11/27/07 at 12:34pm
Craig,

what are you using these days to eq your subs? the sms or true rta with a beheringer?
post #4334 of 6764
11/27/07 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I'm sure that A7-450 is going to be a lot sub for the money. I'm curious how it will compare with the Conquest.

My money is on the eD sub. They just seem to make one heck of a product. It will be interesting to see how the two compare. I just wish eD would come up with a more pleasing finish.
post #4335 of 6764
11/27/07 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Interesting, so in other words, if 2 subs were located apart, you could theoretically get the "bass boost" but it would depend on specific Frq's and actual distance apart as well as any room reflections etc etc......

I guess this is way the easiest way to run 2 subs is to co-locate them or stack them, keep them next to each other etc etc.....

Am I making any sense.....


Yes, and in the same sense you could get an area of no base; destructive interference. Same theory is used for noise cancelling and Ed's DECA.

Stacked works good as the two sources are effectively equal distant so are almost perfectly constructive.
post #4336 of 6764
11/27/07 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Rone View Post

My money is on the eD sub. They just seem to make one heck of a product. It will be interesting to see how the two compare. I just wish eD would come up with a more pleasing finish.

would you mind sharing on why you think your "money is on the eD"? just curious ...
do you have either? do you know anything in particular about them other than craig's comments thus far that makes you think this? again, just curious.
post #4337 of 6764
11/27/07 at 2:10pm
It would be very difficult to know which sub would perform better, but if we assumed performance to be similar, the eD would present a better bargain at a cost of $300 less plus the price includes shipping.

Again, this is all based on performance assumptions.
post #4338 of 6764
11/27/07 at 2:12pm
I'd suggest it is too early to make guesses on the ED vs Conquest. We haven't seen scores from the smaller Epic subwoofers.

If a castle or tower scores similar to the ED A5-350 then I'd expect the A7-450 to be similar to the Conquest in performance. Similar as in 1-3 points and being hard to differentiate without side by side comparison.

The ED A7-900 isn't a good comparison vs the conquest. We can't assume much as one has twice as many drivers and appears to be amplifier restricted.

In any case I think the average audiophile would be very happy with any comparable subwoofer from SVS, AXIOM, HSU, EPIC, JL, or ED. If you are a bass junkie then you are likely to never be satisfied.
post #4339 of 6764
11/27/07 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

would you mind sharing on why you think your "money is on the eD"? just curious ...
do you have either? do you know anything in particular about them other than craig's comments thus far that makes you think this? again, just curious.

It's my money I can put it wherever I want. I have heard neither sub but from what I have read in this thread and others I think eD makes a solid product and if what they can do with a $600 sub with a 15" driver an 18" driver and larger amplifier and cabinet I think eD will do quit nicely. It should be fun to see how it will perform.
post #4340 of 6764
11/27/07 at 3:56pm
Hey Craig,

Just wondering if you plan on testing the Seaton Sound SubMersive1 ?
post #4341 of 6764
11/27/07 at 4:38pm
http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=183

The second sub shown in this pick is my custom A7S-450. The first A7S-450 out the door. I am very happy with the output and clean bass from this sub. I am using it in an enclosed 11,000 + CF room. Lots of bass output. I am running it set at the 1:00 setting on the sub and -8 db on my AVR. Put on the Hulk in Dolby Digital Plus for my son and I to watch. We sit 9-11 feet from the sub and the impact from the explosions made you feel like you were there. I have great sound and excellent picture, but thinking of adding a projector to the system.
post #4342 of 6764
11/27/07 at 6:06pm
mjg100 -

DO you plan on adding a second sealed ED sub in the near future?

I know you have everything tucked neatly away in your entertainment center. But, if WAF and $$$ were not issues... would two A7s-450's be; a) better, or b) too much?
post #4343 of 6764
11/27/07 at 6:58pm
FIXED

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlesore View Post


But, if WAF and $$$ were not issues... we would live in a perfect world
post #4344 of 6764
11/27/07 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlesore View Post

mjg100 -

DO you plan on adding a second sealed ED sub in the near future?

I know you have everything tucked neatly away in your entertainment center. But, if WAF and $$$ were not issues... would two A7s-450's be; a) better, or b) too much?

Second sub, no. I am getting plenty of bass out of this one sub.
post #4345 of 6764
11/27/07 at 9:22pm
I'd consider a second sub, just to even out bass in the room.
post #4346 of 6764
11/28/07 at 11:20am
I just got back from my weekly biz trip ... After putting some thought into this, I have three guys coming over Sunday to do some more side by side on the Conquest in the horizontal position, to see if the scores change with blind tests.

Jono, I am using the Behringer now.

This will move back getting results from the Castle and Valor, but making sure the Conquest gets every opportunity to perform at its best is "fair".

Veris ... Excellent posts. Thanks !
post #4347 of 6764
11/28/07 at 11:38am
Can you actually hear that much of a significant difference when its on its side to go through another testing round?
post #4348 of 6764
11/28/07 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by veris View Post

Speed of sound is roughly 340m/s (temperature dependent) Length of 1 cycle (wavelength) at 20hz is thus (340m/s) / (20/s)= 17m. A "perfect" superposition (doubling) of waves would thus be about quarter of that or 4.25m (or 14ft). That also assumes you are exactly between the two speakers.

I'd suggest bass boosts would definitely be frequency and spatially dependant. Course room effects would not be insignificant and can't be easily calculated. Hence trial an error on speaker positioning.

I haven't really added anything new here, but I hope I've helped to explain the bass boost by frequency 'theory' calc. re: wave superposition

I'm glad you said that. If we were talking about one sound source then the equation works well. With two sources, it breaks down somewhat because of cancellation and the possibility of double standing waves. To get the full effect of tw subs, a whole lot of moving around and phase adjustment will probably have to take place before he reaches optimum performance. Between the two, it's hard to say which one is the most impaortant because it's so dependent on the room configuration. Good call though.
post #4349 of 6764
11/28/07 at 11:51am
craig isn't the first person to notice that it sounds better on its side. I noticed the same thing and so have at least 1 other owner who ended up placing it on its side permanently i believe.
I can't leave it on its side because i just don't have the room.

So yeah i think it would be fair to place it on its side and see how it does. I wouldn't count on more than 1 or 2 points but you never know.
post #4350 of 6764
11/28/07 at 12:04pm
It shouldn't be too surprising that turning the sub on it's side might change the sound somewhat. Upright due to it's tall height, the woofer sits about two feet off the floor. On it's side, it's closer to the floor by about a foot. It would be similar to moving the sub a foot closer or futher from a wall. This can certainly change the in-room response somewhat.
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