Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 18  

Hey Jakeman, I would, for one, be interested in how your rankings would differ on the subs you have experienced. Just for curiosity's sake and to have another data point.

Craig, having been in your fine home and watched first hand how painstakingly you worked to make sure each sub was given unbiased treatment I know how careful you were in ranking these subs. Measurements and data analysis take you only so far and your considerable experience with many subs puts you in a unique position to rank these subs. Thats what makes your ranking much more beneficial than the usual collection of graphs and glowing reviews.

Its expected that everyone would rank that many subs somewhat differently but you ask enough people and I believe the majority would come very close to your ranking. That was pretty well how it went among the panelists at your last GTG. Peoples rankings were all different but the overall pattern was consistent. With regards to ssjmarcy I don't think he is a troll, just over pompous and too much attention is being paid to him, me included.

John ... Thanks for the compliments on my wife's handiwork with the house - she did finally finish it, too. Hopefully, you will make the next GTG to see the finished product.

As Jonny suggested, it would be informative to see your ratings of the subs here ...

You know as soon as I hit the send button I thought I shouldn't have mentioned that I would rank them a bit differently because someone like Jon or Craig would ask. Ok seeing how I've been put on the spot here is my current sub assessment. I will spare everyone the usual long list of disclaimers. I will omit the subs mentioned by Craig which I have not heard and added some others. Also I am not in a position to defend a numerical weighting.

1. JL Audio 113 / Velodyne DD-18
2. JL Audio 112
3. Velodyne DD-15
4. Paradigm Servo v2
5. SVS Ultra/2
6. Axiom EP600
7. Velodyne DD-12
8. HSU VTF-3HO + Turbo
9. Axiom EP500
10. HSU VTF-3HO/SVS Ultra
11. Rocket UFW-12
12. HSU VTF-3 Mach III
13. SVS PB12 -Plus/2

This list is based on my listening and research of the above subs. Not all of them were listened in my room so the standard deviation is higher than Craig's list which has the added benefit of being from the same room.

HOLY CRAP I missed a lot of action today!!!!!

First....sjmarcy is a joke. I read his posts....laughable at best. To much attention as jakeman said.

2nd.....jakeman.....everyone is free to have their own opinions, and I value how you ranked the subs too.

3rd.....Personally I trust Craig and highly value his opinion. I could list reason upon reason why I do, but that would be boring and I really feel like going to watch Saving Private Ryan in DTS to furture my PB-12NSD testing

4th....Craig, and everyone for that matter, keep up the listening, post your thoughts and comments......try to stay away from speculation unless you have some insider information. That will keep the information that is posted more reliable because it is coming from people who have actually listened to the sub they are speaking about.

ONE more note.....my friend from Williamsport PA was up today and I ran him through a round of movie scenes to show off my PB-12NSD.

Jurrasic Park DTS---T-rex scene
master and comm---cannons
u571----depth charge
return of the king---elephants and mount doom
war of the worlds---lightning and pods

I'd say he was MOST impressed by the return of the king demo....BUT he was not like "HOLY ****"....it was more of a "that sounds pretty good".
He said I was nuts if I was really worried about 10-18hz bass and that I'm crazy if I sell this sub and buy a new ULTRA for $1300-1400.

Jeff....you are probably right, just get another pb-12nsd and then a MBM and call it a day. We cannot have EVERYTHING in this world, and Dual PB-12nsd's and a MBM, in a room that is not HUGE, would rival if not beat out MOST people's systems. I'd have frequency response that is down to 18hz and for 95-98% of movie scenes that will be more than enough. I'll also have headroom galore along with tremendous mid and high bass punch that can really slam the room.


Ok...I'm done....Saving Private Ryan DTS time.....I'll report in the morning

Then you'll be ready for Band of Brothers DTS. I'm on disc 4.

Hold the phone!! Band of Brothers is available in DTS????

Curtis, you can still get this 6 disc boxset on amazon. Very entertaining DTS subwoofer workout.

WOW I thought I was gona come home from work today and read more good post and comments and reviews on these subs, it looks like sjmarcy got most of the attention today you should of just told him "read the threads you'll find all the answers your looking for" and left it at that.

Personally after reading Craig's threads and post and his answering and responding to other peoples questions I trust and value his opinion

back to the subs I got my shipping confirmation for my VTF 2.3 today I will be receiving it on the 25th

Hey guys look since we're talking subs and the motives of sub reveiwers like Craig I thought I'd post what I just read over at Secrets. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...007-index.html
I guess we should question this reviewers motives too.

BTW Craig the time and effort you've spent reveiwing all these sub is very appreciated.

Thanks Craig, you rated the HO 1 point higher so I wasn't sure if you believed that it justified the difference in price between the HO and 3.3, but you have pretty much helped confirm what I was thinking.

Craig, do you have any plans to try the turbo on the VTF2.3? Better yet could you try the turbo on the 2.3 and let us know if it is worth it. I know that you can make it work. Thanks!

Thanks John!

For me, it was one of those shows/movies that you can't just stop watching.

OK I couldn't go to bed without a breif report about Saving PR DTS.

1. The opening battle.....just amazing. Every BOMB explosion had IMPACT and DEPTH....I could "FEEL" them blowing up in my living room. The PB-12NSD def. handeled it with flying colors.....I was so impressed. The entire system (svs speakers too) were really impressive....amazing DTS mix for this movie!!!!


2. The End battle....tanks rolling in, bombs exploding.....once again....impressive. I cannot even imagine what an HO, or ULTRA would do with a movie like this....


I really think that this puts things in perspective like I said before..."We cannot have EVERYTHING in this world, and Dual PB-12nsd's and a MBM, in a room that is not HUGE, would rival if not beat out MOST people's systems. I'd have frequency response that is down to 18hz and for 95-98% of movie scenes that will be more than enough. I'll also have headroom galore along with tremendous mid and high bass punch that can really slam the room."

bass can only go so deep....movie theaters can only reproduce movie bass that is so deep and movie makers know that......18hz as a tuning point with in room response probably pushing 15-17hz is going to do the job just fine.......especially with DUAL subs that are going to give a 6db increase in all of the frequency range......6db more at 18hz is going to shake the hell out of ANY house.....

GOD THIS IS SUCH A FUN HOBBY!! I WISH I COULD DO IT FOR A LIVING!

Goodnight Everyone

sjmarcy, I don't understand why you'd balk at revealing all the experience you claim to have. IMO a poster should not run for cover but should *welcome* this sort of thing. I don't pretend to know much about subwoofers, but I've been posting extensively on the forums for more than 3 years, am very experienced, and a bunch of alarms have gone off in regards to your posting methodology and possible agendas you may have, and I'm *quite concerned* by this.

I've read your vague and lengthy posts. A Suggestion. Why don't you document and clarify exactly who you are, the details of your vast experience, and exactly the specific concerns you have about Craig's subwoofer tests and reviews. Post a clear, considered description with lots of backup detail, photos, etc. Then, your concerns can be addressed by Craig, and by others in the future. It would increase your credibility if it all passes "peer review".

Oh, and please be sure to include any and all affiliations, business interests, relationships, etc. we should know about? Things that could bias or prejudice your point of view.

You seem to be pretty touchy on things like this for some reason. That is part of why it is very important that alliances, allegiances, affiliations, motivations, and so forth, be disclosed if credibility as a poster is considered desirable.

What is wrong with disclosure? Any poster should be willing to do this. it is NORMAL for posts to be peer reviewed. IF credibility and the pursuit of truth are considered important it is usually welcomed.






I knew there was a reason I liked you guys. You gotta watch the entire series, back to back, over a two day span. You end up feeling like you went through the whole war yourself. WOW!

This weekend's festivities will include some peak hold graphs for a few subs. We have some requests for Master & Commander ... definitely a great torture test.

Plus WOTW has gotten REALLY old ...

Return of the King-----Elephants charging into battle..........and Mount Doom........

that Mount Doom scene might be one of the most impressive scenes ever!

AND

After Watching Saving private Ryan DTS.........When that First Battle Starts, for about the next 15-20mins you are in SUBWOOFER HEAVEN!

I agree re WOTW ,

The first battle scene in Master and Commander (DTS track) is a really good one and although I am not a big fan of this type of animation, the Titan AE Ice Field scene is a really good bass tester.

Here is the infamous battle from Master and Commander through both the PB12-NSD and the VTF2.3 in its single port mode. Neither would go any louder than shown here, and the microphone was 11 feet from each sub. Both subs were placed in the identical position for this measurement. If you look at the SPL number in the upper left, this represents the SPL level during dialogue ... Dialogue was running at appx. 74-82 dB for both scenes, as run, and each sub was running 3 dB "Hot".

PB12-NSD:



VTF-2.3

That scene is great for provoking port noise. as far as I recall it was the only time I ever heard my PB10 chuff.

thanks Craig...
what were your impressions in terms of the dynamics/feel between the two subs with this scene in your room... and then compared to the vtf 3.3 and the HO?... or is that what you'll be doing this weekend?

thanks again,
Martin

Great stuff as usual Craig. These 2 appear to be neck & neck.

Any chance you could throw the turbo on (since that evens the price difference out
) so we can see the vtf2's LF potential?

Keep up the nice work and I can't freegin wait to see how Seaton's creations compare.


JR

Great user name, JR!!

PB-12nsd at about 102db at the 18hz tuning point to nearly 103db at 22hz.......impressive!

Now figure DUAL subs adding 6db more output and we are talking nearly 110db at 18hz-22hz...Even more Impressive!

The 2.3 really was right their with it for the most part, but looking at the graph it looks like a slight edge for the PB-12.. NO doubt which ever sub you have you are getting great performance.

Craig....any chance of the mount doom scene

I don't think the PB-12 would chuff like the pb-10 ManiacMiner due to the lower tuning and more headroom. ONE PB-12 is = 1.5 pb-10's....that is straight from Erik and Ron from SVs when I was first considering the PB-10 and PB-12 back in November .

I'm curious what the subjective sound differences are. Nice to see they can both push some good SPL though.

Craig, I'm dying to see how the 3.3 compares on this M & C scene!

I totally agree about the SPL for these subs. We are talking about subs that can be purchased for under $600!!! (really under $550 considering you can pick up a b-stock pb-12nsd pretty easy on the SVS site).

Then you consider the BOOST of dual subs.....6db more.....then these PAIR of $1000 subs would be pushing nearly 110db....probably even more considering the room factors that play into everything.


ps........Craig another request besides MOUNT DOOM! LOL

Can we can an overlay graph of the 2 subs you just posted. I don't know if that is something really easy and quick for you to do.....if so, I'm sure we would all love to see that!

And the VTF2.3 is $469...

I agree....$470 for the 2.3 vs $550 for the PB-12nsd (if you can get b-stock)

Both have about a $50 shipping charge.... so thats a wash (unless you can pick the sub up and saving shipping)

The PB-12NSD does give a 75watt power advantage though with 325 vs the 2.3's 250.

Dual PB-12NSD is very impressive, I really wonder how this setup compares to a single VT3 HO W/Turbo? I think they would be same in the 15-25 Hz region but dual NSD would be better above that.... What do you think guys?