Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 21  

No, I want you to explain precisely how you would go about handling these tests.

The floor is yours. Please, elaborate.

sjmarcy - I think people are getting a little agitated because the majority of your questions have been answered before, ad nauseum, nearly every time Craigsub either posts about a sub or scratches his ass. It starts to look like casting doubt for the sake of it.

Personally, I think Craig takes many more steps than 90% of this population to make a quality subjective assessment of a product and to back up that assessment by examining objective data. He's human so errors can occur, but if you want him to control his room so the pressure altitude and temperature is the same for every millisecond of his testing, then I think you're asking a little much.....

Also - why are you hesitant to start another thread for "Sub Testing Methodology." I think it would be more productive there - by discussing the nitnoid details of the test there, we can focus on the products and the evaluations here. I don't see why that's a big deal...

And regarding that 15-18dB difference - instead of scoffing at that, why not ask craig to investigate that further? Data like that definitely needs to be amplified. Actually - speaking of that - Hey Craig , do those measurements match up with your listening impressions? Do you have any thoughts to share on that difference in peak spl? That's a very large apparent difference in output capability, and amazing if true.

Edit - sjmarcy, please do share what you would do differently.

Dynamic vs. static testing can show quite a few different results. For example, let's look at the PB12-NSD vs. the VTF-2.3 ...

VTF 2.3:



PB12-NSD:



Note how close they are in performance, even at the 45 Hz.

While doing these tests, the area being observed was the 15 to 30 Hz area, for maximum output, and the subwoofers were being increased 3 dB at a time, with about 120 seconds between tests, until compression set in. It is likely that the limiters were causing some of the differences we are seeing in that 40-45 Hz area.

I would not be surprised to see the PB12-NSD to have a higher SPL ability @ 45 Hz when not pushing the subwoofer quite so hard. I will run some graphs again tomorrow, and see what happens.

You are self admitedly "not a sub reviewer", but raise questions about his methodology. You keep saying his test methods have shortcomings. What is your expertise that you know his methods are wanting?

This could be an opportunity for all of us to learn something, yet you refuse to take the very easy step of starting a new thread. Even if you don't know all there is to know about testing, if we pool the considerable knowledge base of those who visit this forum regularly (go through and look for yourself, several are designers from the industry) into a separate thread, we could see these "shortcomings", and Craigsub would be "exposed"!

I am going to do the entire forum a favor ... you are now in my ignore list.

If sjmarcy decides to actually post something meaningful, would someone please drop me a line ?

All you said was "impossible" and "OOOHHHHKAAAAYYYY." If you had specific questions about a specific test and the specific results that you don't understand, why not ask them rather than scoff?

I believe you missed bri's facetiousness.

I give!

First person I've ever put on my "ignore" list.

sjmarcy, what you are failing to see is that nobody is saying that the VTF-3 MK3 has 18dB higher output capability than the PB12. In fact if you were to do a max output test using test tones, the PB12 would probably measure much closer to the VTF-3 MK3.

The reason why there is such huge difference in the graphs is due to something else other than max output. Frequency response is one possibility. Peak output is another. Perhaps if you actually looked at the graphs you would understand. The PB12 has nearly as good output around 20-30hz. It's at 45hz where you see a bigger difference.

Also RossandWendy is not saying that he believes the VTF-3 MK3 is better because of Craig's graphs. He already knows that based on what he heard with his own ears. The graphs merely support what he already knew.

Is there anything decent between $199 and $899? How about $400 and under?

how would my SVS cylinder SVS PC-ultra compare to the VTF-3 HO Subwoofer with Turbocharger?

sjmarcy, you conveniently forgot to disclose that you & SVS co-founder Tom Vodhanel are old buddys from way back and you know him well "from behind the scenes" (your own phrase), and Tom V. even remarks that he owes his subwoofer beginnings to you:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...92#post3054092

As I said all along, you definitely came here with a [not so hidden] agenda...

Ditto.

So Tom sent in the troops?

If you look further, you will also see that the VTF 2.3 is about 10 dB lower than the VTF-3.3 @ 45 Hz. Most of the times, when we see SPL #'s for subwoofers on movies, all we see is the total SPL during a particular scene.

For example, when Ed Mullen tested the PB12-Plus, he saw the following total SPL levels during movies scenes:


Here, Ed tells us the total SPL being delivered during the scene. What we DON'T know is the effect of the limiters, limits of the drivers, and amp, during dynamic scenes on different frequencies.

Let's take out the PB12-NSD, and merely look at the Hsu 2.3 and 3.3 - in static tests, will the 3.3 out SPL the 2.3 by 10 dB @ 45 Hz ?

No, it will not ...

But when it is being driven into compression, or close to it, in a dynamic situation like the MC battle scene, it does.

There are a LOT of decent subs in this price range ... look at these in the under $400 range

Onix X-sub ... $199
Hsu STF-1 ... $249... STF-2 ... $319 ... VTF-1 ... $379

SVS and Hsu have several selections from $400 to $899 ... in fact, Hsu's TOP subwoofer is $899 (w/o turbo) plus 3 others, and SVS has 8 powered subs in this range.

If this is true its another unfortunate coincidence which now explains an obvious agenda and does not look good on both the poster and the manufactuer. These aggressive guerrilla marketing tactics get old fast.

From all the SVS subs I have heard that characteristic midbass rolloff is pretty standard for TV's designs. So that chart for the pb12 looked fairly typical with its less than impress linearity. I've seen and measured similar decreases in response with SVS subs in that frequency range. Its the achilles heel of those subs and one of the reasons why SVS sound quality doesn't stand up in a side by side comparison with the Hsu subs. The different response profiles are audible when comparing the pbnsd12 to a more linear sub like the 3.3. The worst performer in the line-up is the pb12-/2 because of this problem.

Nevertheless, the differential is quite large which is likely attributable to room acoustics relative to the different driver and port configurations in those subs. I know Craig has checked his equipment often and it has been used in hundreds of tests with dozens of subs.

Stan I suggest you get a hold of these two subs, state your methodology, run measurements and post results here if you have a problem. One of the few things which have any merit in your comments is that this is indeed an open forum, however its time to back up your insinuations with some concrete data. I'm sure your friend can supply a sub or two.

Craig, out of curiousity, what is the first sub in that last pic with what looks like a gloss black top and bottom (kind of looks like the Mirage BPS-400)?

I'll be watching this thread closely from here on out...

sjmarcy, tread VERY carefully.

grabbing my popcorn...


my only beef with SVS is that their product descriptions (on their site) put them on par with being the Messiah of subs!

OH MY! Isn't that interesting! Whadayaknow! I think we now know exactly who those alleged "readers/lurkers/posters" are.

I think we need to realize that we are talking about subs that are NOT the most expensive here. They will ALL have a weakness or two.

I will keep stressing this to everyone. If you buy an SVS or HSU sub you ARE going to be happy. We have CLEAR proof they are both HIGH quality subs and they will def. be an improvement over a lot of subs on the market.

SbWillie......every subwoofer, car company, and POP maker (coke and pepsi) try to sell their product stating it is the best.....

It is up to no one but US to decide which car drives and looks the best to US, and which subwoofer sounds the best to US.

Of course SVS is going to say their product is the best.........just like if you ask HSU people if they have the best product, they will say yes. That is just the nature of the marketing and selling game.

..........and in a nutshell, this is why Craigsub's testing is very important to us...........

Craigsub, keep up the good work. We (except for the occassional manufacturer's troll whose product won't rank well. lol) appreciate all that you're doing for us.

All,
If I may chime in. I am relative new but not green

Let's not forget that Craig is not being paid for this. My main concern for him is that he has some balance in =his life between work and his home life. I, for one, an grateful for his hard work and unbiased results. I have a HSU 2.3 in my 1320^3' HT/office and I can barely stand the volume with the knob at or right past the first mark on the dial. (very clean and accurate) I love listening to the scene in Superman returns when the crystal makes the sound after it hit the water.

I looked at the subs from both companies and it appeared to me that the HSU presented a better overall value when looking at the specs. I am not one to pay an extra 200 bucks for a extra thump or boom here and there. But that's just my view of the world.

We should all be grateful that someone is taking the time to do what none of have done, are willing to do or are able to do. Once again, he did it for free so if you don't like it don't use it. Most of you, from what I've seen, who disagree with him are not performing similar tests or disagreeing for the sake of helping others. You are just doing it to cause discord and confusion. Grow up!..

Marcy,
I do not know you and am not criticizing you but if what I am reading is true, you may not be but you should be ashamed of yourself. All of us do not have resources to have "special room and special equipment" so the we have to make the best decisions that we can. That is why we come to places like this so we can "help" each other.

Also, if it is true, I bet you can even really enjoy all your "stuff" because you have probably run out of people to show it off to and you probably get bored listening by yourself. It's hard to be the big dog when nobody cares about what you are barking about. Sometimes, we get so caught up in specs, specifics and details that we lose focus on relationships which is what the forums are all about.

Since you are here, grab a seat and enjoy like everyone else. IMHO, you are still welcome. Just behave next time and learn to leave things alone especially if you are not contributing. Just remember that you are not better or smarter than anyone just because you appear to have more resources.


Craig,

Thanks you again and please continue to do what you do because regular ol' Joes are being helped to make good decisions to the point that they can actually explain this "must have to their wives(if applicable).


Sorry about the sermon and thanks to each of you for helpng me pick a great sub.

THANK YOU!

I don't think you can assign any of this the SVS without more information. sjmarcy is whoever he is and has expressed his own opinions so far.

Without more facts, I don't think we should assume SVS has anything to do with this.

Splotto

Well said. I echo your thanks to Craig for all his hard work. It certainly is very helpful to novices like me.

Thanks,
Splotto