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Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 23  

post #661 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose View Post

I'll be watching this thread closely from here on out...

sjmarcy, tread VERY carefully.

Moderator Kysersose, thank you for keeping an eye on things. You can see from this entire thread's history (up until the introduction of sjmarcy) that everyone has been incredibly well-behaved and civil to each other, regardless of which subwoofer brand they own, and there has been much constructive exchange of information that can only help many different sub companies (SVS, HSU, and others have all received very positive comments) and help many readers to make purchase decisions tailored to their needs. This thread, and especially the work of Craigsub, is an example of what makes AVS a great forum!
post #662 of 6764
Craig, you have done so much work already I am hesitant to ask for this, but if you find the time to run the same M & C scene with the VTF3.3 in max extension mode with one port plugged (no turbo) it would be really helpful for many who are contemplating whether or not they should purchase the Turbo with their 3.3.

Thanks again for helping make this a great informative discussion!
post #663 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The scene in question is the battle scene at the beginning of Master and Commander. It starts when Russell Crowe yells "Down, EVERYBODY DOWN when the French ship fires at them, and ends when the English escape into the fog.

I will post the actual time stamps later.

The TrueRTA is left in a peak hold position, in order to capture what is occuring in the subs.

If you want to verify the repeatability of this test, look no further than here :





As the turbo allows deeper bass, with less output in the 22-25 Hz range, while the driver alone handles most of the 30 Hz bass and up, we would expect the response curve from 30-50 Hz to be pretty close.

Dr. Hsu has stated there is 4db more headroom in max output mode compared to max extension, and your tests on the M & C scene have proved that quite accurately.
post #664 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

Craig, you have done so much work already I am hesitant to ask for this, but if you find the time to run the same M & C scene with the VTF3.3 in max extension mode with one port plugged (no turbo) it would be really helpful for many who are contemplating whether or not they should purchase the Turbo with their 3.3.

Thanks again for helping make this a great informative discussion!

I had plans on doing that last night ... then my wife explained that the 4th grader was going to bed, and that reasonable quiet must be kept.

Women just plain have skewed priorities ...

It will be either Thursday night or Sunday before testing resumes.
post #665 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I had plans on doing that last night ... then my wife explained that the 4th grader was going to bed, and that reasonable quiet must be kept.

Women just plain have skewed priorities ...

It will be either Thursday night or Sunday before testing resumes.

Women and audio, there's just no hope of reconciling the two

Awesome Craig, that will be very intriguing to see how the 3.3 does in one-port extenson mode.
post #666 of 6764
Hey Craigsub!

I used to live in Erie back in the late 1990's. I worked for Erie Insurance on State Street until I moved south to NC. I would have loved to stop by when I lived there! Anyway, I have an HO w/Turbo on order (in maple) but I keep mentally flip flopping whether a Mk III would be just as good. I guess it's a Win-Win situation either way.

There used to be a place named Dean Smith's House of Records right down the street on 26th Street where I lived. I imagine that place is long gone. Custom Audio on 26th Street is where I fell in love with Klipsch Fortes. After all these years I now own a pair. Keep up the great work on the sub comparisons!
post #667 of 6764
If the MKIII is any improvement over the MKII, then it truly is an excellent product. The MKII was one of the very few ported subwoofers I have ever ranked as being high in SQ, very balanced over all, great size/performance ratio and in rosewood/piano black, a good looking sub.

Great to see you're still kickin', Craig. Not postin' much, but followin' along, as usual. Hope all are well up there in snow country

Bosso
post #668 of 6764
Bosso .. Nice of you to stop by ... always a pleasure.

And ... for an update ... because my day finished earlier than I thought it would ... here is a graph of the PB12-NSD before hitting compression. Note the better performance in the 35-50 Hz range. It was the limiter ... if I tried 3 dB higher, the graph collapsed as before.

Granted, it lost a couple dB @ 20 Hz .... but the overall performance is darn good.



And ... the VTF-3.3 with one port plugged and no Turbo

post #669 of 6764
damn..........the 3.3 seems to pull out a slight edge with 1 port plugged and no turbo over the PB-12NSD....

Props to HSU for building a really impressive sub!!!!



CRAIG........could you do an overlay of those graphs to compare them really really easy?????????? Thanks
post #670 of 6764
Does the "Input Level" in the upper left hand corner mean anything? Were these level matched? Or just graphs showing the max SPL before limiters, etc. kicked in? I'm assuming the latter, but I just want to be clear.
post #671 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Does the "Input Level" in the upper left hand corner mean anything? Were these level matched? Or just graphs showing the max SPL before limiters, etc. kicked in? I'm assuming the latter, but I just want to be clear.

If I'm correct, the graphs are a running depiction of the max spl at every freq displayed. The SPL in the upper left corner is the current overall spl when the graph was paused or the image taken. Something like that.

In other words, it's meaningless.
post #672 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

damn..........the 3.3 seems to pull out a slight edge with 1 port plugged and no turbo over the PB-12NSD....

Props to HSU for building a really impressive sub!!!!



CRAIG........could you do an overlay of those graphs to compare them really really easy?????????? Thanks

You know .. I need to remember to start doing that. Once the graphs are done, no. I need to leave the TrueRTA window open, and save each graph.
post #673 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

You know .. I need to remember to start doing that. Once the graphs are done, no. I need to leave the TrueRTA window open, and save each graph.


Cool.....I really like looking when they are together and just different colors. that really gives a much easier picture to look at for comparision purposes.

I mean, we all can compare it the way you are doing, but together is just easier

Figured it couldn't hurt to ask, and I'd only ask if it was something really easy for you to do, otherwise the work you are doing is enough and we all cannot thank you enough!!
post #674 of 6764
Craig, I am sorry if I missed it, but did you have a chance to run the HO w/ and w/out turbo (1 port plugged) with the same scene?
post #675 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

VERY VERY well written and very informative. I had a feeling someone would comment on the cyclinder design and how it is against the boxed design....

For me I'd just stack the PB-12NSD's so placement and looks are no issue at all.

Both Craig and Ed Mullen have said that 2 PB-12NSD's would be equal to, if not better than, 1 PB-12/+2. Ed stated "most people would have a very hard time telling the difference between 2 stacked PB-12's and 1 PB-12/+2). PLUS the front firing design is a newer supposedly better design now. AND as far as money is concerned the Dual PB-12's is a Better option for me.

The turbo's would be harder to use colocated because of the side firing woofer. If I wanted the RIGHT next to each other 1 sub would be firing right against the other....probably not a good idea. (Cant stack the Turbo's because of the TURBO Unit).

So NOWWWWWWW that leaves me to contemplate this

Dual stacked PB-12NSDs (I already own 1 PB-12)
vs
Dual Stacked VTF-3.3s w/o turbo
vs
1 single VTF-3.3 with turbo
vs
1 single VTF-HO with turbo

So which is going to give me what I'm so desiring.....the best LOW RESPONSE along with the best mid/high response..

(Disclaimer--I do not care about MUSIC at all........99% HT use for the subs)

Going the HSU route will force me to sell my PB-12, possible lose out on some money, and actually have to spend at least an extra $200 in shipipng for the HSU product. SVS shipping is free because I live so close I can just pick up the subs)


Thoughts, comments, opinions.....(craig knows I'd love to hear from him since he is "the man")

ps.............I love this forum and all of the members here are the best around!!!!

Bgilly, was just rereading some of these posts, and I think if I were you I would sell your sub and just go with a single HO with Turbo. The new Ultra 13.5" will be better, but the price shipped may be a little too much (unless you're loaded of course ) I'm not a big fan of the Turbo look, but for the money and output added, how can you beat it? The new Ultra will set you back much, much more money, and if you want the best, you'll probably be disappointed when the Ultra/2 debuts at the end of the year. (so many decisions - you could always just built a 12 driver 15" IB)
post #676 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Craig, I am sorry if I missed it, but did you have a chance to run the HO w/ and w/out turbo (1 port plugged) with the same scene?

Not yet .... it takes longer than one might think to chart this scene .. the bass spectaculars are over about a 5 minute period, and you need about 8-10 runs, with cool down time, to chart a single subwoofer. This Sunday I am hoping to do the PB12-Plus/2, the Ultra, and the HO ... do the math, and there are 9 more tests here.
post #677 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Not yet .... it takes longer than one might think to chart this scene .. the bass spectaculars are over about a 5 minute period, and you need about 8-10 runs, with cool down time, to chart a single subwoofer. This Sunday I am hoping to do the PB12-Plus/2, the Ultra, and the HO ... do the math, and there are 9 more tests here.

Thank you Craig, not trying to put any additional pressure or work on you just wanted to make sure that if you had done the tests and listed them that I hadn't missed them.
post #678 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

As for SVS being involved with getting someone to do what has happened here, I don't think that is what happened. Ron and Tom are genuinely good guys who are proud of their product line, and deservedly so. I just don't think they are the type to pursue a path as suggested here - so please, let's stop that speculation.

Thanks Craig. Sorry I'm late to the party; yesterday a few people asked me to check on this thread and provide comment on same.

Stan's comments and opinions are his own. No one at SVS knows Stan, except TV. SVS didn't ask Stan to post here to throw a wrench in Craig's thread.

I'm not throwing him under the bus either; by many accounts he's a legend in the DIY subwoofer community and has past associations with Deon B., Paul Scarpelli, Tom Nousaine, John Janowitz, etc. and was also one of the first to pioneer subwoofer measurements, experimenting with S/T Spectra, using the RS meter with correction factors, etc. It's a shame he got off to a bad start with you guys, because he probably has a lot to offer if we could all figure out how to peacefully co-exist.

Regardless, if I took real exception to anything Craig was doing, I'd post here myself. Aside from peak SPL monitoring on bassy scenes (something anyone at home can try) and FR at the listening position, I've long since eschewed any sort of indoor testing for various reasons.

If anyone really wants to compare the overall output capabilities of two subwoofers, I would suggest testing outdoors groundplane at 2 meters for any/all of the following tests:

1) Reverse sine sweeps at progressively higher levels to the onset of output compression.

2) Distortion-limited SPL at discrete frequencies using the CEA 2010 weighted harmonic distortion cap limits.

3) Max output (without respect to distortion) using a combination of sine waves (a favorite of JJ's over at Secrets) - maybe 25, 32, 40, 50, 63.

4) Max output (without respect to distortion) using broad-band pink noise (a favorite of Seaton's and Wiggins').

5) Peak SPL (without respect to distortion) at discrete frequencies using a 5-cycle shaped tone burst (aka "boinkers"), per Yates in the WDD shoot-out.

True max output limits not withstanding, the indoor FR at the listening position can (obviously) account for relative differences in output over any given portion of the pass band and that is more than likely what people are responding to when comparing two given subwoofers and forming subjective opinions of same.

I would encourage Craig to use the TrueRTA QuickSweep function to plot the level-matched FR of each subwoofer from 10-100 Hz on the same graph at the listening position, with each sub in the same test location. There may indeed be differences of 3-5-8 dB (or w/e) at various points over the pass band, and these will definitely affect the acoustic signature of the competing subwoofers.

At that point the subs can be ranked on the sound quality with their "native" FR. With the availability of PEQs like the BFD, SMS-1, DEQ2496, DSP-30, etc. owners/reviewers then have the option (or not) of re-shaping the FR for a flatter in-room response and then re-evaluating the subs again.
post #679 of 6764
Ed ... Good to see you here ...

I wish we had the weather to be doing some of the outdoor tests, for sure. To get everyone up to date on what each subwoofer is doing with the Master Commander Scene BEFORE compression sets in ... let's review them.

Properly done, each sub should have similar looking curves, with the stronger subs having higher SPL levels, especially @ lower frequencies.

The first graph on the PB12-NSD was with the SVS being severely over driven. I played with overdriving the PB12 some more last night - and like its little brother, you just CANNOT make it make a bad noise ... it just limits itself ... which was shown in the lower SPL in the 30-50 Hz range.

Here are the final, "non-overloaded" scenes.

PB12-NSD



VTF-3.3 With One Port, No Turbo



VTF-3.3 Both Ports open, No Turbo



VTF-3.3 Both ports Open, One Port setting on the Amp, with Turbo



VTF-2.3 With Turbo



VTF-2.3 One port open, no Turbo



It is easy to see that the VTF-2.3 was getting into some compression when run without the Turbo ... back off the volume a bit, and you will see similar SPL level in the 30-50 Hz region as the turbo'ed VTF-2.3.
post #680 of 6764
Thread Starter 
do you have a final score on the 2.3 yet???
post #681 of 6764
The VTF-2.3 scores an 86. It basically sounds exactly as the little brother to the VTF-3.3 should. It is deep and tactile ... though the PB12-NSD gives a better "room shake". The VTF-2.3 bests the PB12-NSD in the mid bass ... but both are excellent subs, with small differences which may sway a potential owner to pick one over the other.

For overall performance, a Turbo Equipped VTF 2.3 would get an 88, but I have a hard time recommending the turbo option. One small nudge, and the turbo seal is lost ... I would constantly be concerned that the turbo seal would open, and damage would occur during a high level bass scene.

The basic VTF-2.3, however, is an astonishing bargain @ $469/$499.
post #682 of 6764
Seems like every time anyone posts a few graphs the little chickens run around screaming that the sky is falling.

They are peak hold graphs of an entire movie scene.

One can question if the subs are level matched and FR matched, but that's the case no matter what the venue or methodology may be.

And, with due respect to Edward, it's not bloody likely that most enthusiasts are so enthusiastic that they'll drag all of the necessary gear out into a big field for accuracy's sake.

The big controversy that seems to have arisen here could have a root cause as simple as the scene snapshot being cut off shorter by a second or two, missing one effect that is centered at the frequency in question.

Testing with any methodology can attract it's detractors. Heck, TV has told Ilkka that Ilk's gear and methodology for measuring maximum output before compression is off by 8dB!

I say kick the offending graph to the curb and everyone relax and enjoy the ride , which is a great ride, IMHO.

Testing indoors has it's perils, but it isn't all that difficult to set up to, and hear the differences a variety of subs offer, especially when you've done as many as Craig has. TN is a guy who's made a career out of it, and I never see anyone screaming that he had the mic in a slightly different position or someone bumped his favorite chair before the test of 'X' subwoofer.

Much ado about nothing.

SJMarcy, I definitely respect where you're coming from, history-wise. That in and of itself buys you a lot of respect up front in my book. That aside, it's a different game than you're used to. There's no public health epidemic starting here. Just enjoy the show or state your dissatisfaction and move on down the road.

No one likes a bloodhound with a cause in their thread, and it's a cinch you aren't here because you're undecided as to which of the two subwoofers to buy.

As was probably suggested already, buy the two subs. Set up what you believe to be the proper test with what you believe to be the proper gear and prove your point in a thread that you start, as a public service, which seems to be your angle of attack here.

Bosso
post #683 of 6764
Just a quick thanks to you Craig for all your doing. A big job indeed but I think there are very many here who do appreciate what you are doing! I know I sure do and enjoy the thread very much.
Mike L
post #684 of 6764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

Aside from peak SPL monitoring on bassy scenes (something anyone at home can try) and FR at the listening position, I've long since eschewed any sort of indoor testing for various reasons.

If anyone really wants to compare the overall output capabilities of two subwoofers, I would suggest testing outdoors groundplane at 2 meters for any/all of the following tests:

1) Reverse sine sweeps at progressively higher levels to the onset of output compression.

2) Distortion-limited SPL at discrete frequencies using the CEA 2010 weighted harmonic distortion cap limits.

3) Max output (without respect to distortion) using a combination of sine waves (a favorite of JJ's over at Secrets) - maybe 25, 32, 40, 50, 63.

4) Max output (without respect to distortion) using broad-band pink noise (a favorite of Seaton's and Wiggins').

5) Peak SPL (without respect to distortion) at discrete frequencies using a 5-cycle shaped tone burst (aka "boinkers"), per Yates in the WDD shoot-out.

True max output limits not withstanding, the indoor FR at the listening position can (obviously) account for relative differences in output over any given portion of the pass band and that is more than likely what people are responding to when comparing two given subwoofers and forming subjective opinions of same.

These are of course the proper scientific way to conduct a measurement comparison and I agree its important for readers to keep in mind when agonizing over the last one or two point differences. Outdoors these graphs would indeed look different. While I know how careful Craig has been about replicating placement of the sub and mic, room acoustics will exaggerate the subs response depending on each subs anechoic behaviour.

Of the items mentioned above, #2 is my overall favourite for a one concise look at a sub because it presents output based on average distortion or compression weighted SPL. Comparing the subs using this criteria would give a "truer" relative measure of performance even in an indoor environment. Still that criteria alone does not show the whole picture but it is a better guage of performance than what is being presented graphically here.

I've always preferred the idea of weighting SPL measurement based on the advent of compression or a frequency dependent step thresholds as per the CEA guidlines. Those average SPL numbers even taken indoors would be a better guideline compared to these TrueTRA graphs. The data here is still very useful but like all data presentations its important to keep in mind how representative it is of overall performance which is the thrust of Ed's remarks.
post #685 of 6764
Is there a particular page or link where you have summarized ALL of the findings and rankings so far? A graph with findings overlayed would be a big help to me, too.

Thanks for the great work and follow-ups!
post #686 of 6764
The first post has a summary of the rankings. To find more info, you can search all of craigsub's posts within this thread.
post #687 of 6764
Hey guys just out of curiosity what happened to sjmarcy? All his post have been removed. Sorry for the off topic.
post #688 of 6764
Craig, how does the vtf 3.3 w/turbo rank. I purchased w/o, but was wondering if it was worth the added cost over not having it. Would that 91 go to 93 or 94?
post #689 of 6764
Hey Craig,

There are many of us who recently (or not too recently) bought a VTF3-MK2 and now are probably kicking ourselves for not waiting for the 3.3.
I am not looking for anything scientific here but from memory, does the 3.3 spank the 3.2 in low bass and overall sound or is it just a small incremental increase in performance?

<<getting my steel tip boots ready to kick myself in case the answer is not what I am hoping for>>

BTW,
Great job on the reviews. How do you find the time? I barely have time to listen to the 'one' sub I have.

Thanks in advance!
post #690 of 6764
Thread Starter 
I wouldn't beat up yourself too much, I don't check the HSU site that often but it seems
as if they kind of sprung the 2.3 and 3.3 out of nowhere
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