Official Craigsub rankings thread - Page 24  

There is always going to be the latest and greatest coming out. Heck I still have an original VTF 2 with no plans in the near future to replace it.

Yea, I know I should not be so OCD over these things but that is the curse of anyone who has more than just a passing interest in anything.

I bought a turbo for the 3.2 recently and it does create a incremental improvement in the low bass over the 3.2 with one port plugged (measured by my ears and seat of pants test).

The only concern I have about the turbo is the possibility that the air seal between the sub and turbo may break without me knowing and cause damage to the woofer. It does seal very well and does not move from the bass vibration but a small bump or shift would cause an air gap. I am looking into how hard it would be to create a smooth walled adapter to mate the 3" port of the sub to the 4" opening of the turbo. If HSU created that and sold it for another $20-$30, I would buy it. Hint, hint Peter....

Either way, I love my sub because it is WWWWAAAAAYYYYYY better than the JBL I replaced.
Unfortunately the Hsu performs so well it has created a new hobby for me....rattle hunting in the house...

Daven.....Either choice would be a good one.....i picked SVS because I could save shipping too.

I don't think i'd worry about the breaking of the seal and damaging the woofer. I think someone said they wedged a book or something just for extra added connection security. Plus you could always find a way to permenently mount it with some sort of calking or silicon or the gread old DUCT TAPE (joke) but that could get messy with an expensive sub....

Still finishing some blind testing on the Turbo ... but unless something changes, look for a 92. The Turbo VTF 3.3 and the Non Turbo 3-HO are about a wash.

It is an improvement ... probably in between the 2 options of spanking and incremental. You still have a really good subwoofer. The VTF-3.2 would score higher than the 2.3 ... maybe by a point or 2.

Hi guys,

Great thread! It's a shame that I found it, though

I was wondering if anyone could estimate how the SB12+ would rank among the rated subs. My very kind wife gave me the SB12+ for Xmas and now I'm starting to look the gift horse in the mouth. I think she was worried I would buy a bigger SVS sub if she didn't step in and pull the trigger herself. After integrating the SB12 into our living room I'm realizing that a bigger sub could fit in rather nicely. Now I'm questioning if the WAF is balanced appropriately with the performance/price ratio. Any thoughts on upgrading to the larger subs (NSD or 3.3/3.2) in this situation? Thanks in advance.

-Mike

Folks,
This is really getting old. I came back to this forum after almost a year to learn more and to say the least, the politics here is "DISTURBING". If only, the personal attacks stop, I think all of us will learn more. I do believe that almost everyone here who spends so much time in these forums are here for a purpose. It is your passion for your hobby or to learn more. Can we just leave our petty differences behind and move on. A humble request that I hope will be considered. People do make mistakes when they post, but that does not mean we have to attack them. The day people stop attacking others personally, that day the quality here will start improving. I guarantee you, you will see more of the likes like Seaton, Danley, Ed maybe even Dr. Hsu and and several others come here more often. Let's encourage manufacturers and owners to come here and participate. Chasing people away will only make it worse. Of course, if someone is totally off the line, then it needs to be checked.
Your fellow audiophile,
-Jai

sjmarcy and anyone following this thread,

I had read some of the back and forth banter going on before you removed your posts. That is maybe why I responded to your post as if your were rolling your eyes at my excitement over my sub. You have to admit that it is not hard to take it that way after all the attacks/counter attacks on this thread. If you took what I said as an attack, I assure you it was not. I do not even know you (or Craig) for that matter.
All I know is that this is a very good forum for consumers to get info about products that can't be heard in a show room and most people can't afford to buy both and send one back. I take Craig's tests and opinions as just that, opinions with some visual graphs to look at. The room he is testing in will react with the sub very differently than my room so I can only take his results as a reference point of how different subs will react in a similar placement location in his room with some calibration.
I saw some of your posts questioning his testing methods and I can see if a magazine or lab is comparing subs, the methods need to be stated. As far as I know, Craig is just a regular guy with a few connections and a love of testing subs on his own time so I am happy at least someone is doing that so I can read about it.
I also have an impression that you are very knowledgeable about subs and the technical background to good subwoofers. It would be nice to know what your opinions are on 'What to look (listen) for when purchasing a sub.' It would have helped me when I was researching subs. The more information, the merrier.
BTW, maybe we should all lighten up a little about this thread. It is just about subwoofers you know (faint gasping heard). There are many other things to get truly agitated over. For example, the dumb ass teenagers that robbed and murdered my wifes uncle and his co-worker over god knows what little money they had in the register. Due to their stupid actions, they caused an unneeded loss in two families. The co-worker had a 7 year old daughter that will now never see her mother again.
I wonder how crazy people would get if this was a political/religious forum.

sjmarcy:

How about dialing down the histrionics and hyperbole. The reviews are mostly subjective opinions. If you disagree, fine. You are free to state your opinions and when doing so bring as much supporting data as you can. Debate the issues that concern you. So far all I've seen are "Danger Danger Will Robinson" like hand waving other dramatic comments.

It seems you have the background and experience to bring some intelligent debate to this thread, personally, I would welcome it.

If you are getting emails and PM's that concern you, alert the mods and let them deal with it. If they don't I don't know what the escalation process is, maybe someone else knows, but I would follow that path. Personal attacks are wrong and should not be tolerated.

Long-time lurker here. I appreciate it when someone takes time, effort, and money out of their own pocket to try to help us "regular folk." It's easier to criticize than to help out, and I always find it ironic when those that spend great effort trying to help receive criticism as their reward. All I would ask is that this thread stays on topic. If someone has problems with the methodology or opinions, it would seem more helpful to make a new thread teaching us why another way works better. In such a manner, we can all learn. Simply hijacking another guy's thread who is trying to help, does a great disservice to us all and reduces the probability of others coming forth in the future.

Now onto the relevant stuff: I probably missed it in the mass of pages, but are you planning on testing any of the SVS cylinder-subs?

Thanks once again for all of your work!

Welcome to the forum Fred. Now as Fred said so well let's get back on topic. Craig keep the info coming.

[quote=CHAS ZOSS]
Chas .... If you like the SQ of the SB12+, why not exchange it for a PB12-Plus of the same finish ? It should sound the same, while extending deeper, and at a higher SPL, than your current sub - plus SVS will (I think) pay for the shipping - and you just pay the difference.

NOTE TO ALL:

ALL REVIEWS TESTS, EITHER DONE BY A MANUFACTURE, MAGAZINE, OR A MEMBER OF THIS SITE ARE ALL SUBJECT FOR REVIEW. TESTING IS NOT ALWAYS DONE THE SAME EACH AND EVERY TIME BY EACH AND EVERY PARTY THAT CARES TO MAKE SUCH TESTS.

FROM WHAT AVS CAN SEE, AS IT ALWAYS IS, NO ONE IS EVERY HAPPY WHEN ANY TEST IS DONE AND THE PRODUCT THEY OWN, OR HELP TO ENDORSE, OR KNOWS THE MANUFACTURER PERSONALLY, OR HAS HELPED THE MANUFACTURER, ETC, ETC, DOES NOT TAKE TOP HONORS, THEN ALL HELL BRAKES OUT. ALWAYS.

TAKE A REVIEW AS JUST THAT, A REVIEW. NO SPEAKER WILL PERFORM IN THE SAME WAY IN EACH ENVIRONMENT. THAT INCLUDES SUBS. MOVE IT 2 FEET TO THE LEFT, GUESS WHAT, YOU MAY HAVE JUST MADE A PEEK OR A DIP AT A CERTAIN RANGE.

SO REMEMBER WHEN YOU COME TO US THAT YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE WAY YOU HAVE BEEN TREATED BY OTHERS. IT IS NOT WHAT YOU SAY, BUT HOW YOU SAY IT. TO JUST ATTACK AND NOT BE EXPECTED TO BE ATTACKED BACK IS JUST SILLY. WHY, "EVIL BEGETS EVIL", AS THE LINE GOES. SO ASK, DON'T ACCUSE.

I AM GUESSING THAT 99% OF PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD ARE ADULTS...SOME OF YOU REALLY NEED TO CONSIDER YOU MAY BE ONE. AS SUCH, CONSIDER NOT CRYING FOWL AND TAKING YOUR TOYS AND GOING HOME WHEN YOU MAY HAVE BEEN THE CAUSE OF THE ISSUE TO BEGIN WITH.

THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS ANY ONE PERSON...BUT AS A REMINDER TO ALL AS TO THE ISSUES MADE HERE AND WHY THEY MAY OCCUR.

ALL IN ALL, BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU OWN AND GO ENJOY IT.

[quote=craigsub]
Craig, do you really feel they should sound the same other than SPL and extension just because it's the same driver? The enclosures are so different that I have my doubts that they would sound all that similar.

It would make for an interesting test.

[quote=mojomike]
Mojo, it's because of the enclosure that the PB12+ will have that added extension and SPL capabilities. But at moderate levels, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two.

Even with the SB12+ being sealed and all, with proper placement, level adjustment, and phase setting, the PB12+ can be just as good with music, if not better.

David, you looked better in the previous avatar. Kidding.

They don't sound identical in back-to-back comparos; there are differences in the respective frequency responses.

The SB12-Plus is also the first subwoofer model we offer with the room gain compensation control; it allows the user to tailor the low end roll-off of the subwoofer to complement the acoustic transfer function of the listening room, thus achieving a flatter and more accurate low-end response. This control can make an audible difference in the acoustic signature of the subwoofer, particularly for critical music listening.

If you like the way the SB12-Plus sounds, and just want more oomph, then consider dual SB12-Plus.

With that said, the PB12-Plus does have better extension (and the ability to tune to 16 Hz), and it also has much higher output capability at the deepest frequencies due to its larger enclosure and bass reflex alignment.

Regardless, the two subs can indeed be made to sound very similar, but you would need an external PEQ to shape the response of the PB12-Plus to match that of the SB12-Plus, particularly if you were using the room gain control on the SB12-Plus.

Ed, that makes perfect sense to me. I do indeed have two SB12+'s for primarily music use.

Just wondering here what the thoughts are on a VTF2.2? I have a 2500 cu ft room where my primary HT will be, but it is open to an adjacent large room downstairs. Probably 60%HT- 40% music.

I live in Canada and shipping on Subs from the US is brutal, but it looks like HSU is dropping their canadian dealer. If I can get a deal from the outgoing canadian dealer while they are clearing out stock, do you think this sub is large enough? Should I be considering STF-3 instead?

I'm comparing to an Axiom EP350 in the similar price range.

Final round!

Craig,

Thanks for answering my question about the performance differences between the 2.3, 3.2 and 3.3.
Glad to know that the 3.2 will have a 1-2 point edge over the 2.3.
Since I have the turbo unit, would that qualify as a possible additional 1 point in the ranking?
I was told that the 3.2 with turbo would perform the same as a 3.3 with one port closed (no turbo).

Having directly compared them they have the exact same components/enclosure except the 2.3 has a 100w rms (400w peak) less power ....... SQ is a carbon copy with slightly more output and dynamics across the range (for the 3.2)

Ddavidson

One concern about assigning point values to this process is that we get too wrapped up in the total points a unit scores. The results here should be combined with testing done by other reviewers, and also, if possible, one should audition a product for him or herself.

I hope that our results are consistent with the results that other reviewers have gotten. Please, look at reviews done by The Perfect Vision, Stereophile, Sensible Sound, Secrets of HT, Audioholics ... etc ... and compare our results to theirs ... get ALL the opinions you can.

The points, as awarded to date, are *hopefully* a decent barometer for people looking to purchase a new subwoofer. Several people have participated in the blind tests here, and we have also gone to great lengths to find the right location for placing the subwoofers in our basement theater. If you look at the Master and Commander Graphs - you will see quite similar shapes, in regards to the output levels of each subwoofer, with some extending deeper, and/or having higher levels of SPL than others. The shapes should be similar, if the test was done properly.

The 3.2, with Turbo, should do very well overall ... and would likely have score around an 89-90 point level, IF you are comfortable with the turbo.

Thanks for your responses. I do enjoy the SQ of the SB12+. This is my first sub. On music it sounds fantastic! I nearly wet my pants after listening to Mickey Hart's "Temple Caves" the first time after getting the sub. Movies are a completely different experience, as well, but I can't listen too loud due to neighbors. I have a relatively large room with some nasty room modes (16x16x8 that opens to another 16x8 room). The improvements in SQ owe a lot to the ability to easily place the SB12 nearfield and shave off a few dBs near 75Hz with EQ.

That said, the SPLs start to roll off at ~30dB/oct at 24Hz and the idea of hearing/feeling bowel moving 16Hz notes with some of the other subs definitely piques my curiosity. I am really curious how the SB12+ would stack up against the big boys in real world listening tests. As I mentioned in my first post, it would take a lot to convince my wife to allow an increase in the physical volume of the audio equipment in our living room. This includes getting an additional SB12. So, this question might be more for academic purposes if anything else.

Cheers,
Mike

Just one guy's opinion, Mike, but given your space, placement and volume limitations, I'd suggest you relax and enjoy your SB12+ and forget about changing subs. Under your circumstances, the SB12+ will handle 99.5% of everything thrown at it, and I doubt it's worth risking upsetting your wife for the other 0.5%.

(I have and love a 16-46 PC+, but I live alone.)

One alternative way to enjoy infrasonics without a bigger box in your room might be a Buttkicker LFE kit. After installing one, I became convinced it added more to my enjoyment than the same amount spent on a "better" subwoofer. As I said, only one opinion. YMMV.

My copy of The Haunting in DTS just arrived! Cannot wait to put my PB-12NSD through this test!!!!

craig,

my budget is pretty bad after buying everything else. how would the BIC H-100 rank in your opinion. i know you dont have one in your house so i was just looking for an estimate. ive never heard it but $250 will work with my budget until i can save up enough for something much better like the HO or new ultra.

Tri73
Rocket X-Sub for only $199 + ($43 shipping)
A geat little performer for a very small price.

Or the Hsu STF-1 for $249 + $20 shipping.

Another great performer in this price range.