Official "1080p Vs. 720p" Thread Discussion - Page 40

I think charts are great but in real world viewing contrast plays a bigger role than res up to 50" @8-10ft for perceived detail. Proven in many reviews where 768p kuro sets beat 1080p sets....quoted earlier in thread. Larger screens at the same distance require higher res.

Well wikipedia is not trust worthy, and I don't believe that the average eyesight is better than 20/20, that is obviously wrong. Considering how many need corrective lenses and how many have their eyesight deteriorate as their age, if anything common sense dictates the average to be worse than 20/20 not better. People with 20/10 vision are actually pretty rare.

Carlton Bale's plot is a good first attempt, but it's still flawed because visual acuity has a logarithmic relationship not a linear one, and the 1 arcminute rule is just a first rough step approximation and the real number depends on ambient light and other factors (that is to say that we only have 20/20 vision in well illuminated environments, not what we strive for with home theater). These things contribute to suggest that 1080p is really not worth it on displays less than 50 inches, even if you sit close to them.

It's not really an issue though, almost all tvs made today are 1080p.

For LCD TVs 32" and under, 720p (more like 768p, since most are 1366x768) is still predominant, as there's a $150 premium for a 1080p set at that size.

Given that everything isn't yet 1080p, the debate is still important, as many people have large DVD collections, and there's no definitive answer as to whether 1080p or 720p is better for SD sources. Most websites that discuss the issue - like CNET, for example - only talk about HD sources, and don't even mention DVDs.

Some people in this forum argue that 720p sets are better for DVDs, since less interpolation is required. Others claim that 1080p is better, since smaller pixels produce a smoother image. I would side with the latter argument, except that SD looks more blurry on the 1080p sets I've seen, which indicates to me that current upconversion technology works better with a smaller number of pixels.

Well I mostly watch dvds, I have both 1080p sets and 720p sets and when matched to the same field of view with similar contrast, I don't really see a difference between the two. I think that those that argue that 720p sets are better for dvd (or the other way around) are making a simplistic, naive argument about how they think a scaler would work. Scalers are far more sophisticated than they give them credit for.

Bottomline is that these are all bogus arguments. What really matter is (a) quality of scaler, (b) video processing, (c) quality of deinterlacer (more important than scaler) and (d) (most importantly) contrast, and not as much on 720p vs 1080p.

Oh yeah I stand corrected on the smaller tvs still command a premium on 1080p.

I now own a 1080p set in the same model line as my 720p set, and having compared DVDs, I agree there isn't much of a difference. However, I would give a slight edge to the 1080p set as the image on it does look a bit smoother. On the other hand, SD cable on the 1080p set looks significantly softer, especially the analog channels.

Very well said

How many years until there is no 720p?

How many years until 720p is against the law?

As soon as marketers can gain control of everyones brain it's over. We go to hi def prison for our crimes of contrast and detail.

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I assumed it would be preferable to a new thread. I've just done a couple hours reading on this subject (including most of this thread). I've found many, many visual comparisons, but most of them are indistinguishable - probably because they're postage-stamp sized jpgs.

Since I can't find a legitimate looking full size comparison (and considering how much better games look in 1080), I decided to do my own by taking screenshots, using paint.net to save the following:

1. 1080p
2. resized to 720p then back up to 1080p

The difference is astounding. However, I don't know if the relatively terrible quality of the 720p is simply due to bad scaling. If this is the case, how should I do it correctly?

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/6167/tdk1.jpg
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6112/tdk2.jpg
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/180/crysisone.jpg
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/679/crysistwo.jpg

Edit: I'm very sure the rescaler / resizing / whatever the proper terminology is is screwing with things. How do I do this properly?

+1, processor/scaler quality is more important to PQ that panel resolution. IMHO PC graphics cards do a better job than most TV's internal processors. Also keep in mind you must use 1:1 pixel mapping with a displays native input to bypass the internal scaler.

Try these two videos, scaled by the encoder. The differences are not as much as yours but close to TV reality. They depend on the size of your screen and the viewing distance.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8424544/Res-Sharpness-BBB.mp4

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8424544/Res-Sharpness-ED.mp4



Elephants Dream

hoping for this to help beginners like myself......
I am after a flat panel.... i have a PJ AE4000 for movies with retractable screen... mandatory for wifey...... but need a wallmount panel for sattellite watching ONLY....
the seating position is going to be 13ft..... now if its only satellite at 1080i (hd channels) and some SD...... not a tonne of abient light so there is some light control....
should i be looking for a larger NON 1080p panel then? like a 50 to 60" plasma being there is some light control and cheaper cost currently... and a 720p ?? looking at the seating chart it seems not allot of point going to a 1080p at that distance for satellite reception at 1080i?? does this all seem right or am i missing something?

I don't believe anyone makes a 720p set greater than 50" any more. So, if you want something bigger than that (which I'd suggest for with a 13' viewing distance) you'll get 1080p whether you want it or not.

jeff

right... but there are many current 720p at my minimum 50" , but maybe should be looking for a tv with the best 1080i display then.......... i know certain sets i have read randomly in threads do this better than others.... but i cant find a way to search for them....... any advice?

Get a Panasonic TC-P65S1, can be had very cheaply. S2 as well but the S1 is better.
Another option, 5 inches smaller, LG 60PK550, no AR filter, but very good display, also can be had cheaply.

Ok, well i burnt my self out researching tv's galore... it does get exhausting after awhile. My budget after seeing the panels recommended was 1500 CDN, which makes a big difference..... not so much in the exchange but you definitely get the better deals down there still. That being said..... worried about the glare of the PK 550, and calling LG who said they are just releasing a fix for the 950... i went with the 50pk950.... and went a bit above my budget anyways........ just couldnt go the distance for anything else larger for my budget....... but allot in my range in 50's. I hope it will be big enough. For movies i am using my PTAE4000 and 110" dalite so i can take my frustration out on it...... thanks for the help peoples! now i have to sit and wait.......

Hi,

I've read a lot of thoughts here and elsewhere, including most of this thread, and I'm still torn and looking for advice. For the last several years, I've had a 34" 720p Sony CRT HDTV. That's right, a tube - that weights a ton. I've been very happy with it - no "native" resolution to worry about, no viewing angle issues, and so on - but it's recently died.

So of course I want to buy a new set to replace it.

Based on what I've seen (looking at various sets in stores), I definitely want to go with plasma, not LCD. (If you think I should go LCD...why?) And, unfortunately, the largest TV I will be able to fit in the space is a 46" model (okay maybe 50" if I'm lucky). Still a big step up from 34", especially for a living room (and not a "home theater".)

We mostly watch network television and sports, but we also play PS3 and Wii, watch Netflix Hulu and movies from my HTPC, and we watch some BluRay movies as well.

I typically sit about 11' from the TV, though there are some seats as close as 8'. (Unfortunately, I can't really change this either, and yes, I know that it's not the "optimal" distance for that size screen.)

So (and you knew this was coming, didn't you?), should I go with 720/768p or 1080p?

Here's why I'd go with a 1080p:
a) The BluRay movies and some of the PS3 games
b) Future-proofing (i.e. assuming more 1080p content will emerge over the hopefully long life of the TV)
c) A suspicion that the 1080p models are of higher quality (in general) than the 720p models (for example, Panasonic has the 2-pane "Infinite Black" THX-certified screens in 1080p but not in 720p)
d) Honestly, though I can't afford the "best" that's out there, I want to get the best I can within my budget - unless it's truly a complete waste of money.
e) Most of the "720p" sets I've looked at are actually 768p, meaning any signal coming into the TV would get scaled (right?)

Here's why I'd go with a 720p:
a) Did I mention I was sitting 8-11' away?
b) I watch a lot of sports and other action stuff, and I want the motion to be as good as possible
c) I'm concerned that upscaling 720p signals on a 1080p set wouldn't look as good as downscaling 1080p or 1080i signals on a 720p set
d) It doesn't cost as much as a 1080p set

Aaaaaaah!

I humbly beg you for any suggestions...

Thanks,
Peter

Edited: PS - I don't care about 3D.

I bet if you look up the specifications for your now dead 34" Sony CRT. That you will find it is/was a 1080i set, and not a 720p.



Yep, everything would be converted/scaled to 768p.

As you found out, a 720p plasma, is actually 1024x768p, it will not be any better in the ways you think it might. You would be better off going with a 1080p plasma.

After further research, I only see one 46 or 50" plasma screen that's 720p, and that's the Samsung PN50C450. Samsung says it's 1280x720 native resolution. Would that eliminate the scaling issue?

It of course is the cheapest of all the models on my "list" right now.

Or should I just stick with the 1080p models?

How about the LCD vs Plasma side of things?

Thanks,
Peter

How is a 720p set going to help you if the content you want to watch is in 1080i? Not all broadcast HDTV is in 720p, there is also 1080i. No matter what you get, there will always be something that is going to need to be scaled. A 1080p set also have more pixels than a 720p, more pixels usually means better/more detail. So you may as well get 1080p and be done with it.



As for LCD, if you do any amount of off angle viewing, then you likely would not be happy with the off angle viewing of a LCD set after having that Sony HD CRT for so long.

Stick with plasma - better motion , viewing angles etc. At this point the reason to go 1080p isn't the (perceived) better picture- it's that 768p sets are now feature poor compared to 1080p. Sets like the 768p 5080 kuro ( a picture that still blows many 1080p sets out of the water) are long gone from retail.

It's not so much that the currently sold 720/768 plasma set are feature poor, as it is the 1080p sets also usually use newer and more up to date technology (some may even say better technology) all through the set. Besides when you are looking in the lower price ranges of any plasma, none of the entry level plasmas are really loaded with much in the way of having a lot of extra features. Sure 1080p is going to cost some more money to buy than a 720/768 in the same size, as it's a bit more difficult and also more expensive to make a 1080p panel than it is a 720/768p panel.

That's what I'm saying , features as in processing , screen overalys , power supplies- everything - the whole package is just a series of features from model to model. No work has been put into upgrading (in any meaningful way) 768p sets for several years.

Thanks for the good info, both of you.

On the scaling...how valid is my concern that 720p signals on a 1080p set wouldn't look as good as downscaling 1080p or 1080i signals on a 720p set? Could I notice a difference or not, or will other considerations be more of an issue anyhow?

Thanks,
Peter

I doubt that your concerns about a 1080p set scaling a 720 source poorly is even any sort of a issue let alone being a problem. It's even also possible that the 720p source may even end up looking better to you once it's been scaled by the TV up to it's 1080p native display rate.

1080p if u will be watching a lot of blu ray IMHO. it is not rocket science to display 1080 on a 1080 native display but the prowess of a processor is evident when u scale 480i, SD or even VCD.

So depends what TV or to be more precise what TV processor u buying. Obviously a pio is going to be very different from an Olevia. If u are not keen to be held hostage by the processor then 768 FPTV is worth considering, assuming u are not looking for an external scaler like DVDO. Less painful to change it 3-5 years from now when hopefully transmission will be 1080p. People tend to underestimate cost of future proofing.

So it sounds like 1080p Plasma it is...and probably 46", looking at the manu specs on WxH.

Thanks,
Peter

Actually all content on 1080p displays is ALSO scaled unless 1:1 pixel mapping is activated. It's off by default on most displays and most leave it that way.

I need a little help, I am looking to buy a new tv, I have spent hours and hours scouring this forum and still have no answers.

In short, is 5.5 feet too close to be viewing a 42 inch 720p plasma? According to the Carlton Bale charts 1080p is fully resolved at 5.5 feet. At this distance will a 720p image look sharp or pixelated?

Would a 1080p 50 Inch plasma at 5.5 feet be a better choice with the right content (1080p)? Would 720p content look okay at this size/viewing distance? I would be 1 foot closer than the fully resolved 1080p distance.

Should I break down and spend the same as I would on a 42 inch Plasma on a 32 inch LCD (which is fully resolves 720p at 5.5 feet) and give up superior contrast and colour?

The 42 inch 1080p Panasonic G25 would hit the 1080p sweet spot at 5.5 feet but floating/rising blacks aren't acceptable to me + they are super pricey here in canada


My biggest thanks to anyone who takes the time to reply.

If you enjoy the movie feel at 24fps and color fidelity then you should go plasma.

Whether your eyes see pixelization depends on your eyes and the source. At that distance you probably should go 1080 but do try out a DVD or 720p on the TV to see if the TV upscales properly to your eyes.