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Official "1080p Vs. 720p" Thread Discussion - Page 14

post #391 of 1467
Guys there is no contradiction there, the manuals don't touch upon NATIVE resolution.
They Only mention the 768 1366 as the specs as the website does on the higher end and lower end 768x1366 sets.
If there was a different native resolution in the manual then there would be a contradiction, but there is not.

A lot of those manuals have the same basic specs with the lower and the higher end sets and don't get into details like the official websites specs do.
They're mainly operation instructions and some manuals cover 4 different sets.

They would have to print different pages for few additional features.

That is just telling me the websites are more detailed and more specific.

If I say Bill has brown pants and blue shoes in one statement, and just say Bill has brown pants in another statement, does not mean I was contradicting the earlier statement. I just didn't touch upon the other spec.

Again I find very coincidental that the website specs lists all the higher end sets at native 720p and not the lower end ones.
post #392 of 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

Again I find very coincidental that the website specs lists all the higher end sets at native 720p and not the lower end ones.

Hmm, newer TVs have newer manuals. They might even get some marketing ideas in the intervening year. Yes, they may also put in new features.

If support for "native 720p" means they have a 1:1 pixel-mapping mode for 720p signals on HDMI, then great. If true, we've solved the mystery.

It doesn't change the fact that the panel itself is 1366x768 native resolution. For 1:1 "native 720p", it would simply only use 1280x720 of them, with black bars around the outside.

Mystery solved.

If I get some time, I am going to model both scaling, and the eye response at distance, and give some pictures of what happens to a test pattern. It should show what happens as we move our viewing position back, as well as what happens with the different scalings. It may take a few weeks -- I'll be sure to post it though.
post #393 of 1467
The text that I quoted specifically says "native resolution" of 1366x768.

Sole, can you please (without the use of random quotes) explain to me how a picture that consists of a certain number of pixels can be displayed on a display with a larger number of pixels without scaling (or having black bars)?
post #394 of 1467
They all say 1366 that way.

That is not what I am seeing when I see the detailed specs for each set.

Mystery solved... I don't think so. I could have said that yesterday when I got off the phone.

It appears that you're paying extra money for the 720p native.

It's too coincidental that all the lower models and higher end ones are consistent with the 720p native spec on the detailed link for each set.

Non native means a source from outside the monitor.

I will grant you this much, I heard 4 different stories from reps, they really don't know. The only ones who know are those who build the sets. But I did hear the same story from 2 different people there.
As far as your tests..knock yourself out. I'm sure yours will be different, I've done them too, but I go by unbiased professional tests... but that's just me.

If I come across anything else I'll let you know.
At this point, from what heard and from what I see, the better sets that say native 720p are native 720p, and interpolate non native signals to a different format and pixel structure.
I remember I looked into the CRT issue of not displaying a native 720p resolution, it would down convert it to 480p.
However what a lot of people didn't realize is the word native, it was able to display 720p from a Directv box because it was a non native source.
Look at the definition of native. It's says native 720p...
Remember what native means

"constituting the original substance or source "

When they say native 720, they're not talking about the broadcast signal, they're talking about what the set displays by itself.

The outside source like a PC is NON NATIVE and is scaling a different size pixel format by interpolation. The way you can change your monitors resolution from your control panel.

768p is the max the set can display, but it has to come from a non native source.

I know it's open for debate, but there a lot of things that are consistent across the board with specs, etc. I even came across this again from another site

Native Resolution: 720p Contrast Ratio: NA Display Resolution: 1366 x 768 Overscan:
http://www.federalstereo.com/sokd32lcdtv.html
post #395 of 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

It appears that you're paying extra money for the 720p native.

Let me ask you something, Sole.

If it is possible for a 1366x768 display to have a 720p native resolution, then is it also possible for a 1920x1080 display to have a 720p native resolution?

Why or why not?
post #396 of 1467
I thought maybe we could convince you, but I guess I am wrong and will have to move on.

But one more time 720p indicates a certain number of lines that does not match the number of lines on a 1366x768 display, thus it is impossible, literally physically impossible, to have that display show a 720p picture without either 1) scaling to fill the screen or 2) 1:1 pixel matching having black bars fill up the additional lines.

You are paying extra money for a lot of things (maybe) in the higher end set but one of them is not the ability to display a full 720p picture without scaling it or having 1:1 pixel matching. Please stop citing a reseller's description of a product as proof that the product does something that is impossible.
post #397 of 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamburgerhelper View Post

Can someone explain to me how a signal (720p) that we call agree contains a certain number of vertical and horizontal lines (ie 1280x720) can be displayed on a screen that we all agree has a larger number of lines (ie 1366x768) without either 1) showing black bars or 2) scaling?

It can't.

Anyone who suggests otherwise does not know what they are talking about.

ROTFL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamburgerhelper View Post

Sole, can you please (without the use of random quotes) explain to me ...


Ain't happening this century, mister - so stop asking
post #398 of 1467
It's more like you guys are not grasping the native display and an interpolation change of a non native source.
post #399 of 1467
Okay, I'll bite.

Please explain to me how "an interpolation change of a non native source" (which I take it means a 720p signal) is displayed on a display that has a native resolution of 1366x786.

I am guessing your explaination will be what is commonly known as "scaling". Is it just the terminology? Do you agree that there will be some alteration of the 720p source material when displaying it on a 1366x768 display?

I own a 720p LCD by the way and absolutely love it and think that 1080p is probably overkill for my particular screen size and setting. I am not even debating that stuff, just trying to get the facts right.
post #400 of 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

It's more like you guys are not grasping the native display and an interpolation change of a non native source.

Easy now everybody, lets keep this discussion clean.

I'm very curious if you have an answer to my question? I think it would help begin some dialog that might go a long way to coming to an understanding in all of this.
post #401 of 1467
I'm going with what is on the table.
I'm not going to answer a no such animal hypothetical question.

I not asking everyone to take my side, but I just can't believe you can't see my point of view.

Like I said, I been through this issue with the CRT 720 native display issue.

I believe I explained it. The way your monitor changes pixel resolution through the control panel.

Believe what you want.

HH,
please re-read my last long post... read it slow, I answered the question there.

Interpolation format change with non native sources.

The set converts over to another pixel format system with non native sources.

Unless I come up with anything new, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.
post #402 of 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

I'm not going to answer a no such animal hypothetical question.

Its an honest question, and I believe it deserves an answer. Its not hypthetical since there are 1920x1080 displays in existence. I just want to know how can I tell if those have a 720p native resolution?
post #403 of 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

The set converts over to another pixel format system with non native sources.
.

This makes some sense, but it seems like correct technical information, plus marketing information, is being mixed together and being put out as meaningless statements.

Hmmm. I wonder what this "other pixel format system" is? Scaling perhaps? Conversion to the frame rate to the panel rate as well?

Of course, colorspaces have to be converted to RGB, but that's the same for all sources, native or not.

We've already said that "native 720p" may mean the existence of a 1:1 pixel mapping mode, and a 60 Hz refresh, which will match 720p30 or 720p60 signals.

Are you imagining a new set of pixels that magically pop in front of the 768 ones?
post #404 of 1467
My friends,
I'm not locked into a certain view. I told you before I'm a realist, I go by what I see, and official demonstrative results.

I understand this is up for debate, but I can't believe that not one of you found it funny that there was a consistency in the native spec of the better models.

I can see you people saying marketing gimmicks, yes, there is a lot of BS out there, also I can see if Sony was rounding off their 768p sets to the 720p broadcast signal, I can see that.

But ...I got different answers.

Most of all it I do not see it as a coincidence that all the higher end sets were 720p and the lower ends were not. This is in the 32 inch, 40, 46 flat panel LCD sets.
If they were pulling marketing scams why not 720p native for all the 768p sets? Most people don't know what that s%&t means, or click specs.
768x1366 is a higher # resolution and has been proven to display more of 1080i cross conversion.
If they were rounding off the sets to the closest HD broadcast signal of 720p, why not do it with the lower end models as well?
I will agree that most of the reps make up answers, but for someone to come out with things like independent system for VGA input, you get the feeling the guy studied that somewhere? You just don't make s*&t up like that or have farts in your head like one person said the 768p LCD displays the 1080i signal in 1080i. How do these people get or keep their jobs?
There is reason for that 768x1366 number.
We already found that out it displays overscan. Are we positive that the extra resolution has nothing to do with that? I also found on many sites that WXGA is true 16.9 and 720p is 16.9. They do ....
Are the 720p sets performing an extra task or conversion that the 768p is not doing?

"The 1366 x 768 native resolution means that no additional scaling or conversion is needed for widescreen images, resulting in crystal-clear 16:9 images with no digital artifacts."
http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/sha...p-lc37hv6u.html

I have wrote an expert and will get an answer on that issue.

Most of all when I see native 720p, I tend it take it for what it is, literally, can it be wrong... yea, but you all seem so positive it is not.

Anyway, I wrote a very detailed letter to Sony, and explained the situation and the fact that I got 5 different answers, & I described to them every answer I received.
I said is this professional of the #1 electronics giant in the world, imagine if Dateline NBC was doing a story on electronic customer inquiry? I said that to them.
I asked for an official answer in writing, if they had to consult technicians or those that build them if necessary.

I know all the sites say all signals scale to 1366, but could Sony have created another system in the last year or so to display an independent system?

What ever the official answer is, if I get one, will be closure on it for me. I will be man and admit I shouldn't have taken the 720p native rating as literal if they say it scales everything to 768p. I'm taking the 720p statement as literal only because their seems to be a consistency in the rating of the better sets.
I even have ticket # for issue.

Can they give me the wrong answer again, yea, but I really feel they will be more careful in answering, the way I wrote it up & thinking it could be Dateline, as well as the fact that they are putting this is writing now.
I'll let you know.
I have a 720x1280, a 720x1024 & a 788x1366, and I feel the consumer has the right to know about the sets he owns or wants to buy.
post #405 of 1467
1366x768 happens to be a long-approved Wide XGA standard

1366x768 has MORE to do with LCD yields/production lines and convenience than a deep-seated insiduous attempt at tricking customers who were hoping to buy 720P Native sets

Many don't plasmas even adhere to this specific resolution (nor to 720p for that matter). They're usually 1280x768 or 1024x1024 or some unGodly random resolution like those that just so happens to be convenient to manufacture.

Different resolution sources (720p, 1080p, 1080i etc) HAVE TO BE SCALED to be dislpayed on these without screwing with the Aspect Ratio.

Ditto for 1080p display - which, however, fortunately matches perfectly with an established standard.

I bet you'll be denying all this even when the Whuxga versus HUXGA threads start popping all over avsforum
post #406 of 1467
No not at all, just let me ask... I clicked the site? Is this like the 2160p & 1440p Quad sets?
Is there a signal to match the sets resolution? PC stuff yes?
post #407 of 1467
ashutoshsm stated
"1366x768 has MORE to do with LCD yields/production lines and convenience than a deep-seated insiduous attempt at tricking customers who were hoping to buy 720P Native sets

Many don't plasmas even adhere to this specific resolution (nor to 720p for that matter). They're usually 1280x768 or 1024x1024 or some unGodly random resolution like those that just so happens to be convenient to manufacture."


The way they're making the sets now they showed to be irrelevant in the many side by side tests I provided. The 720p signal on my 768p set blows away my Sony 720px1280. One of the reasons I can't believe it is scailing it.

I saw the 1080i Discovery signal on the best Sony 1080i direct view right next to the Sony 768p LCD, was really a no contest. I adjusted the sets to my preferences as well. My test is irrelevant, but it's consistent with the tests of the 1080p vs 768p sets with the 1080i signal, I quoted enough of them.

I hear you though, if that is what they are doing it is false advertisement, but again, why do they not say 720p for all their 768p sets? Think about it.

Also that link you provided confirms my point about 16.9 on the 768px1366

"Common Wide XGA resolutions Resolution Usage Aspect ratio
1280×720 Monitors 16:9
1280×768 Monitors 16:9.6 (5:3)
1280×800 Monitors 16:10 (8:5)
1360×768 LCD TVs 16:9 (approx.)
1366×768 LCD TVs 16:9 (approx.) "

'WXGA is generally understood to refer to a resolution of 1366×768'


When I see things like this

"The 1366 x 768 native resolution means that no additional scaling or conversion is needed for widescreen images"
http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/shar...-lc37hv6u.html
post #408 of 1467
I am not sure why there would be any question that 1366x768 is 16:9 - just divide both fractions and you get the same result, as you do with 1920x1080. The issue is not whether the resolutions are the same aspect ratio. The issue is that it is not possible in any way whatsoever to display a 720p image on a 1366x768 display without scaling the signal to fill the screen.

I am not sure that I understand why you (Sole) are so willing to accept the marketing specs (which is likely different just because when Sony released the newer sets they added that spec) and do not accept the manual that I cited that specifically states that the "higher end" model you reference displays a 720p signal in its "native resolution" of 1366x768 - which of course is not 720p.

Sony may make great tvs but even they have not divised a way for a fixed pixel display to change the size and shape of its pixels depending upon the source material.

There is scaling, it is that simple. Scaling is not a bad thing, either, and from what you have said, the model you looked at must do a great job scaling. But it is certainly not displaying the 720p image unaltered (unless there are black bars which would be the case with 1:1 pixel matching).
post #409 of 1467
HH,
You could be right, but here is what you are wrong on.

It is not just new sets that added 720p native. My set from a year and half ago the KDL V40XBR1 says and said 720p on the specs web site for that set, then & now, and newer lower end sets that came out this year do not have the native 720p setting. That is fact!

If it's false advertising they are consistent in doing it with the detailed specs on their web sites for the higher end 768p sets only!

I explained about the manuals, they could be using similar pages for the higher and lower end sets.. I said could.... I seen it before many times in my life in many situations...
Manuals cover a bunch of different models as well, don't you ever read my side, why do I have to say it again?
I didn't say this is the way it is, I said it's possible.

They could adding more detail on the specs sheets of the web site for each set because it's specifically about that set, not manuals to cover 4 sets or pages they can reuse a year or 2 later that have the general specs the same.

Either way HH, that face remains there is a contradiction. One of them has to be wrong!

I am making the written response the final authority on this, in my view anyway!
post #410 of 1467
Guys, give it a break. He just doesn't understand
post #411 of 1467
Also about the 16.9

Read my post... was never a question that 768x1366 is 16.9, but all over the place including the link included by ashutoshsm says

It's approxi 16.9 for 768x1366 ...........and just 16.9 for 720x1280.

"Common Wide XGA resolutions Resolution Usage Aspect ratio
1280×720 Monitors 16:9
1280×768 Monitors 16:9.6 (5:3)
1280×800 Monitors 16:10 (8:5)
1360×768 LCD TVs 16:9 (approx.)
1366×768 LCD TVs 16:9 (approx.)
1920×1080 SXRD projectors 16:9 "

"WXGA is generally understood to refer to a resolution of 1366×768"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1366x768


"The 1366 x 768 native resolution means that no additional scaling or conversion is needed for widescreen images"
http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/shar...-lc37hv6u.html

There is a difference... so they are not the same, which one is better?
The site above says no additional scailing with the 768x1366 set for the widescreen image.

Check this out

(Wide XGA) A wide screen resolution of 1366x768 pixels. See PC display modes.

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_te...i=54923,00.asp


Regardless of the response I get from Sony about the Native 720p issue, a lot of readers discovered some new things about 768x1366 sets, overscan.
Conclusive side by side tests. and other things such as native being the function of the set by itself, without the use of other sources to provide signals.
post #412 of 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Best to leave resolution debates outside the confines of this thread. Again, what we are mainly trying to do here is provide a single location where the more experienced forum members can direct new/inexperienced members to, in order to save us all from repeating the same basic information over and over and over and.. well, you get my drift.

Hey Souless,
Read the first post.
post #413 of 1467
What do you get out of this?

"Some modern widescreen liquid crystal display (LCD) monitors can also natively display 1080p content."

"Widescreen WUXGA monitors for example support 1920x1200 resolution, which can display a pixel for pixel reproduction of the 1080p (1920x1080) format."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p

So can a 768x1366 support a pixel for pixel reproduction of the 720p signal?
post #414 of 1467
Click on the link to the WUXGA wiki. It clearly states that to produce the 1920x1080 image on the higher resolution display "the image is slightly letterboxed, but maintains an appropriate aspect ratio"

And so, you have just proven everyone's point - to display a pixel for pixel image on a display with a higher resolution there will be black bars or "letterboxing".
post #415 of 1467
Oh, and to answer your question, yes if it supports 1:1 pixel matching which of course will result in black bars or letterboxing.
post #416 of 1467
Yes, that's why I asked, when you're right your right.
Let see what Sony says, if they respond back.

What did you think of this link I provided and the post it's in?

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_te...i=54923,00.asp
post #417 of 1467
Reading through this long thread (and others), is has helped me a little with my research. I am researching for my eventual purchase of a 36"-42" flat panel (should happen at the end of July, right before I head back to school). Its main use will be as my computer monitor (gaming>net/worddoc>TV>movies), and for my Wii. I have been hearing that for computer monitor use that 1080p is prefered, but hearing from others that 720p (even if it isnt actually 720 pixels) would look the same for the size display I am looking for. So...
1. Is there any truth to 1080p being noticably superior in hte size panel I am looking at during use as a PC monitor?
2. I am trying to understand overscan, and when tv's actually show 1:1 pixel, unconverted, images. If I put in a 1920x1080 resolution source from my computer into a 1080p monitor, is it actually matching pixel to pixel?
3. Since the majority (if not all the ones I am looking at) tv's that are 720p are do not actually have 720 pixel resolution, is there image distortion?
4. Looking forward a few months to the end of July, and factoring in price drops and new tech, what would you guys buy in my situation for less than $1500?
post #418 of 1467
It depends on your card, there is 768x1024 sets, and that I believe matches PC resolution.
As far as TV though, the way the sets scale them today they couldn't tell the difference between the 768p sets and the 1080p in tests, so that was irrelavant.

As far PC images, I can't really can't say how they look on the 768x1366 set, but you see above as far as HDTV, 768x1366 It says
"HDTV uses a 1.78:1 " and that is what 768x1366 is 1.78:1.
The PC input probably looks great as well, the 1080i signals do, but I never hooked my PC to it.
But there is 768x1024 sets, that should match the PC well.
post #419 of 1467
Skip Sole's off-topic response.

Do NOT buy a TV that has non 1:1 pixels for PC use!

Make sure that if you buy a 1024x768 TV, it has an aspect ratio of 4:3 (umm - non-existent)

Your only two real choices are
- a 1366x768 HDTV (probably an LCD) that is 16:9 (like they all are)
- a 1920x1080 HDTV (probably an LCD) that is 16:9 (like they all are)

I have the latter and it is an absolutely gorgeous PC monitor. Make sure your video card supports that resolution (newer ones all do, to varying degres of capability in terms of having HP available for onboard video decoding/smoothing/scaling as well as rendering complex scenes for gaming)

Also skip anything that has an interlaced native resolution (1080i), or a 1080p TV that maxes out at 1080i as it's best input capability.
post #420 of 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

If it's false advertising they are consistent in doing it with the detailed specs on their web sites for the higher end 768p sets only!

It is not "false advertising"; its merely a case of using the term "native resolution" loosely (and arguably improperly). When Sony says "Native Resolution: 720p" here, they are not talking about the actual physical number of pixels on the screen being the same as the number of pixels in a 720p signal (which is 1280x720). Instead they are just making it clear that the highest resolution signl this set can diplay without down-conversion is a 720p signal.

The fact that you observe this specified only on "high end" sets is likely because, in those cases, there may be an expectation on the part of the consumer that the set is a native 1080p display because of its higher end position in the lineup and higher pricetag. In other words, they have used the term 720p here to distinguish 1366x768 displays from 1080p displays. It is stating firmly "This is not a 1080p display". It was intended as a means to provide clarity, but in this case has actually caused confusion on your part

Quote:


Manuals cover a bunch of different models as well, don't you ever read my side, why do I have to say it again?

Sole, please understand, we have read everything you've written, and do understand your position and assertions. Some of what you have said in this thread aligns itself nicely with the facts quite nicely. It remains, however, a myth that there exists a fixed pixel device that can change the size, shape, or count of its pixels. Its simply not within the bounds of reality to think otherwise. Please understand this is not a smear campaign - its just the clear and honest truth. We keep speaking this truth not to hurt or defame you, but because we are passionate about this website and its endeavor to provide facts to people with the desire to understand Audio-Visual Science.

Your sources - the manuals for the televisions, various reviews from across the internet, and the information from these mysterious "techs" you reportedly keep contacting are subject to miscommuncation and error. You are in the midst of a perfect storm of misinformation, and this coupled with your passion to defend what you believe has led you to false conclusions. That is not to say that this website is error-free but you have some of the best minds in the business gathered here, and not one of them has been able to back up your claims about "pixels changing size".
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