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SVS PB12-NSD or HSU VTF-Mk3 - Page 4

post #91 of 204
I notice that you are back. I too am sorry for your loss. I wish you and your family the best.
post #92 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEFFREY GTS View Post

Anymore word or reviews on this sub? I am about to pull the trigger on it. I want to compare it to the PB12-NSD I have right now. I am just wondering if I should go with or without turbo. I talked to the Dr. and he said that I would be perfectly happy with the MK3 w/o turbo. He said that the turbo is amazing in the very low frequencies and if I listened to a lot of pipe organ music and low frequency stuff then it would be a good choice but I also told him that I liked more of a punchy hit you in the chest type of bass and not too concerened about it going ridiculously low, 20 hz is fine with me. What do you guys think? With or without turbo? One more thing to keep in mind, if I go turbo, I plan on buying another MK3 down the road and I can't stack them on top of each other if I go with the turbo.

Hi Jeffrey,

Thank you sincerely for your best wishes regarding our loss. When we get back home this coming weekend after the funeral I will start some measuring and listening tests on the VTF-3 mk3 in max output mode (no turbo) and compare it to my PB-12NSD and will post more comments by Monday. Also look for updates from Craigsub in his subwoofer shootout threads on this and other forums since he has purchased both of these models and will be testing them in the next week or two.

I've noticed a lack of mid-bass impact with the PB12-NSD in my room (possibly an inevitable compromise due to its non-adjustable 18hz tune and single port) so it will be interesting to compare to the 3mk3 since it is supposed to do especially well in that regard when run without turbo in max output mode (22hz tune). HSU says it is even punchier in the midbass than the more expensive HO.

Ross
post #93 of 204
Hey all, Happy New Year!

For anyone still looking for comparisons on these two subs, I have resumed my listening sessions the last couple days with more coming Tuesday and Wednesday.

I've been experimenting with placement of the HSU in various locations in my room and after reading an article about the benefits of nearfield placement I set the VTF-3 mk3 right against the left side of my listening couch, woofer facing into the couch with about 4" clearance, and 3' from my ears. Because room boundaries were now more distant and thus not effecting the initial soundwaves as much, the bass was extremely smooth and even-handed with absolutely no boom or unpleasing emphasis that can result from boundary placement. In this position music is even more stunning than before with an extreme amount of accuracy. And on movies, the impact from having the sub nearfield and firing into the couch has been amazing, especially on the dinosaur fight in JPIII where I have never felt anything like the way each footstep of the T-Rex shook my whole body with unbelievable amounts of LFE, yet so clean and undistorted.

I removed the turbo and briefly tried the same 16hz tuning with one port plugged, and in my large room I do not like this as it sounded a little too lean and strained at high volumes (I bet it would be quite good though in medium to small spaces). I also did quite a bit of listening with no turbo in the maximum output mode (both ports open) and the overall dynamics and power in this mode is fantastic with a fuller, warmer sound in the mid-bass that hits very hard when required by the source. I even prefer the max output/no turbo mode to using the turbo, at least in this nearfield placement. I did notice a lack of the very deepest frequencies since there are no nearby room boundaries to provide reinforcement, but it did not bother me because the bass from 20hz and up was so good.

Tonight I've put the turbo back on and in max extension mode and have moved the VTF-3 mk3 into the front right corner just a few inches from two walls so I can experiment with an even more powerful room-reinforced sound. In this corner placement I have had to turn the sub way down which is a great thing, providing even more headroom for loud passages. The sub level control is now only 20% of the way up and my receiver trim level is at -7, so this thing is going to really be able to stretch its legs and play extremely loud when required in this new position. I'll be listening to many demo DVD scenes and more music and will report again soon.

Overall today I have noted how the VTF-3 mk3 in my room is so much more powerful and dynamic than my PB12-NSD, and still noticeably cleaner and more articulate. Whether in max ouput mode or with turbo attached in max extension, the 3mk3 always sounds muscular and controlled even at quite loud DVD playback levels. The HSU has double the ports of the SVS which makes a huge difference in moving massive amounts of air without compression or distortion, and though both have amps of about the same power rating it is clear that the 3mk3 has a more efficient driver.
post #94 of 204
Near field placement sounds impressive. Curious to here the results of corner loading. Also wonder if there is any advantage to a turbo for a music only setup...

THANKS

anka
post #95 of 204
Just when I thought I had my mind made up in keeping the SVS.
I too am curious to your opinions on corner loading the sub in the front. That is where my sub is.
post #96 of 204
Very happy your back ross! Thanks for the sub tests, keep them coming!
post #97 of 204
Hey rossandwendy,

Your thoughts are really helpful! Must be tons of fun...

Could you direct me to that article on nearfield placement? I have a SVS PB12 Plus/2 on the way and am wondering if I'll get better music and clarity of bass with a nearer position.

Thanks and sorry about your recent loss,

Phil
post #98 of 204
Thank you Phil!

The link for the article about nearfield sub placement is from hometheatersound.com and this position is often recommended by Dr. Hsu:

http://www.hometheatersound.com/feat...n_20060801.htm

I ran through quite a few DVD scenes and music CDs today with the VTF-3 MK3 corner loaded, and while it was indeed powerful in that location it was setting off too many resonances and rattles in the nearby walls, fireplace, and windows. I used it both with Turbo (max extension mode) and without (max output mode) and I continue to prefer the max output/no turbo mode in my room because of superior dynamics, increased fullness and slam in the mid-bass, and less localization of the sub location.

Next I tried placement on a sidewall to my left and the sound there was really good, with less room resonances than the corner had. But I've been talking with my very nice neighbors about the fact that I have on occasion rattled the living room walls of their own house and today they heard some rumbling from my testing, so in an effort to avoid bothering them I once again tried that nearfield position with the 3MK3 side-firing right into the left side of the couch 3 feet from my listening seat (ports firing towards the front of the room). The benefits here are numerous as the sub is moved further away from my neighbors wall, it functions nicely as an end table with a lamp placed on it, and best of all the impact - WOW!!! My jaw literally dropped as I listened to the storm and subsequent plane crash near the beginning of Flight Of The Phoenix - each wave of LFE plummeted my listening couch and was strongly felt in my entire body, and I was picking up more subtleties of tone and texture in various bass effects compared to having the sub placed further away. When the plane takes a roll before the crash there is an extremely strong 30hz sustained tone and when it hit it was like getting an intense full-body massage!

The Star Wars I pod race, Finding Nemo submarine and Darla tapping scenes, JPIII dino fight, and WOTW pods emerging were all handled with great authority and an almost frightening palpability transferred through the couch to me. With nearfield I get less wall-shaking in the room but much more impact and vibration directly on me at the listening position, whereas placement close to room boundaries shakes all the walls in the living room but with less visceral impact on me. In nearfield I continued to prefer the sound of the 3MK3 without Turbo in the extended output mode, both with movies and music, as the additional headroom and full mid-bass impact are so addicting to me (kick drums in ext. output mode are clean, tight, and punchy). I'm sure the sub is not reproducing much below 20hz with this mode and placement, but I do not miss the mostly inaudible stuff in the teens because what I'm getting from 20hz on up is so awesome.

I still believe SVS makes excellent products as well, but it is clear to my ears that this VTF-3 MK3 is truly something special, certainly more accurate and musical than my SVS and a true bargain at $649 intro. And what has really surprised me is the power and dynamics in extended output mode considering my large open space (close to 7000 cu. ft. total and a stairwell opening). This is as much sub as I can use in my current house without driving my neighbors insane and I am delighted with the way it blends so well with my Ascend speakers (crossed over at 80hz/front and 100hz/surrounds I cannot localize it at all with nearfield placement). It's a keeper!
post #99 of 204
This was just posted tonight in a thread at the HSU forum by a new VTF-3 MK3 owner, and it sums up what I feel as well:

"I really can't say much more than WOW - the balance of power and articulation blew me away."
post #100 of 204
It's safe to say I am now buying the MK3-w/Turbo instead of a PC ultra or 16-46..thanks guys!

Maybe the SVS guys will forgive me after I repeatedly told them I was buying SVS in my emails.

ROSS,

How much does nearfield decrease the rattling? My wife is heavily into decoring (Home Interiors to be exact) and extreme rattling,etc won't work with her.


My wife has a ton of back problems so the `massage' factor sounds very good!
post #101 of 204
rossandwendy, very interesting review on the two subs. Right now I'm stuck between going with either a dual PB12-NSD/2 or dual VTF-MK3 setup. You only tested the PB12/NSD against the MK3 so it's not really fair to my comparision. Want to pick up a PB12-NSD/2 to test against your MK3?
post #102 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by SbWillie View Post

ROSS,

How much does nearfield decrease the rattling? My wife is heavily into decoring (Home Interiors to be exact) and extreme rattling,etc won't work with her.


My wife has a ton of back problems so the `massage' factor sounds very good!

Hi SbWillie,

With the nearfield placement I am not noticing hardly any rattles throughout the entire room - even on the WOTW pods emerging scene which is the most outrageous LFE of any demo DVD I've heard. All other placements near walls/corners in my room have produced lots of shaking, rattling, and resonances in windows, mirrors, decorative objects, drywall, etc.

The woofer firing into the side of the couch is fantastic, but I also read great things about firing directly into the back of the couch behind the main listening seat (but my couch floats in the middle of the room so that is probably not an option for me). The closer the sub is to you, the lower the sub volume control will be after calibration, which gives you less overall room rattling and more dynamic headroom at the listening seat, plus the amazing physical impact of all those bass waves.

I really like the new cabinet design on the VTF-3 MK3 with a side-firing woofer and ports out the other end, because this makes placement against a couch easier - with my PB12-NSD nearfield wasn't effective because the woofer and single port are both on one end which makes the sub stick out too far and requires more breathing room for the port - basically a very awkward look and not compatible with the all-important WAF.
post #103 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denon2807 View Post

rossandwendy, very interesting review on the two subs. Right now I'm stuck between going with either a dual PB12-NSD/2 or dual VTF-MK3 setup. You only tested the PB12/NSD against the MK3 so it's not really fair to my comparision. Want to pick up a PB12-NSD/2 to test against your MK3?

Denon2807, do you want my wife to kill me?? Along with a couple of Athena subs I have lying around there's four total right now and she is none too happy about it (gotta get some eBaying done soon)

If accurate music reproduction is a high priority for you, I would consider the HSU's or moving up to a better SVS driver than the NSD series. For a few years I had read so many comments about the musicality of the HSU subs and had read the Stereophile review where the older VTF-3 had made their Class A list of top audiophile components regardless of price, and now after owning both SVS and HSU my ears agree. Even for home theater I notice and really like the way the HSU more clearly articulates various LFE effects and gives more a sense of the variety of bass tonalities and textures. But if my theater was in a smaller room I bet my SVS would have been a lot more impressive since it would not have been straining near its limit.

You might want to find and read Craigsub's subwoofer shootout thread on the ********** forum as he has some pretty revealing ongoing tests with the VTF-3 HO vs. a couple different SVS models, and he has the 3MK3 being added to the test mix this week. The HO has a little less distortion in the very deepest frequencies due to a different driver design, but by HSU's own admittance the 3MK3 hits harder in the mid and upper bass than the HO (a quality I am loving!).
post #104 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEFFREY GTS View Post

Just when I thought I had my mind made up in keeping the SVS.
I too am curious to your opinions on corner loading the sub in the front. That is where my sub is.

Jeffrey, what is the size of your room? And have you noticed anything specific in the sound that you feel is missing, or that you wish was a little better?
post #105 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

Denon2807, do you want my wife to kill me?? Along with a couple of Athena subs I have lying around there's four total right now and she is none too happy about it (gotta get some eBaying done soon)

If accurate music reproduction is a high priority for you, I would consider the HSU's or moving up to a better SVS driver than the NSD series. For a few years I had read so many comments about the musicality of the HSU subs and had read the Stereophile review where the older VTF-3 had made their Class A list of top audiophile components regardless of price, and now after owning both SVS and HSU my ears agree. Even for home theater I notice and really like the way the HSU more clearly articulates various LFE effects and gives more a sense of the variety of bass tonalities and textures. But if my theater was in a smaller room I bet my SVS would have been a lot more impressive since it would not have been straining near its limit.

You might want to find and read Craigsub's subwoofer shootout thread on the ********** forum as he has some pretty revealing ongoing tests with the VTF-3 HO vs. a couple different SVS models, and he has the 3MK3 being added to the test mix this week. The HO has a little less distortion in the very deepest frequencies due to a different driver design, but by HSU's own admittance the 3MK3 hits harder in the mid and upper bass than the HO (a quality I am loving!).

Music is definitely not a priority. Movies is the main priority. My room is also pretty large at 30x20 feet with a 16 foot ceiling at its highest point in the middle. With those things in mind does your opinion change at all? Wouldn't the PB12-NSD/2 be better than the VTF-3 MK3 simply because it has dual woofers whereas the MK3 only has one? With two subs I'd be getting 4 woofers going with SVS or just 2 with HSU. And from what I'm hearing the more woofers the better because my room is so big.

Reasons why I'm leaning towards the PB12-NSD/2:
1. Better looking case design
2. Dual woofers
3. More comprehensive website (usually tends to mean they will be quicker at answering questions and more legit if that matters)

Reasons why I might go with the VTF-3 MK3:
1. Everyone is saying that it's a great subwoofer and it has tons of output
2. $250 cheaper than the PB12-NSD/2
post #106 of 204
For the price of a PB12-NSD/2, you're at the HSU VTF-3 HO level. Add another $100 and get the turbo.

Have you read this thread?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150
Quote:


5. Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
5a. Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
6. SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points.
6T. Axiom EP-500: 90 points
7. SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points.

...The Hsu VTF-3 HO W/Turbo has 38.9% higher performance than does the SVS PB12-Plus/2 (in this case, the overall musicality added to extension wins the day).

That's the SVS Ultra at #6 and and Plus/2 below that, not even the NSD/2.
(he hasn't evaluated the new VTF-3 MK3 yet)

The VTF-3 HO + Turbo pushes as much air as 4 VTF-3 MK2s (what I have, previous model, latest line is MK3).
post #107 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

For the price of a PB12-NSD/2, you're at the HSU VTF-3 HO level. Add another $100 and get the turbo.

Have you read this thread?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150


That's the SVS Ultra at #6 and and Plus/2 below that, not even the NSD/2.
(he hasn't evaluated the new VTF-3 MK3 yet)

The VTF-3 HO + Turbo pushes as much air as 4 VTF-3 MK2s (what I have, previous model, latest line is MK3).

WOW! So then why would anyone buy a PB12-NSD/2 over a HSU VTF-3 HO, or do they not already?

So here's the big question: Would (2) HSU VTF-3 HO subs (without turbo charger) crank out gut wrenching bass even in a room the size of mine (30x20 with 16 foot ceiling)?

Also, is the VTF-3 HO the most powerful sub HSU makes? Their website doesn't seem to show much of anything. One more question: From looking at a picture of the back panel of the VTF-3 HO it doesn't appear that two of the same sub can be hooked together as it only has one left and right RCA port. How would that work if I wanted to connect two?
post #108 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denon2807 View Post

Music is definitely not a priority. Movies is the main priority. My room is also pretty large at 30x20 feet with a 16 foot ceiling at its highest point in the middle. With those things in mind does your opinion change at all? Wouldn't the PB12-NSD/2 be better than the VTF-3 MK3 simply because it has dual woofers whereas the MK3 only has one? With two subs I'd be getting 4 woofers going with SVS or just 2 with HSU. And from what I'm hearing the more woofers the better because my room is so big.

Reasons why I'm leaning towards the PB12-NSD/2:
1. Better looking case design
2. Dual woofers
3. More comprehensive website (usually tends to mean they will be quicker at answering questions and more legit if that matters)

Reasons why I might go with the VTF-3 MK3:
1. Everyone is saying that it's a great subwoofer and it has tons of output
2. $250 cheaper than the PB12-NSD/2

I completely agree with what cyberbri just wrote. Make sure you read Craigsub's tests before you make your final decision.

Two SVS woofers vs. 1 HSU woofer does not tell the whole story, nor does amp power - the efficiency of the driver itself makes a huge difference. My PB12-NSD woofer requires a much higher volume setting (both sub control and receiver trim) to be properly calibrated with Avia at 85db then compared to my VTF-3 MK3 which requires very little volume to get to that same calibration point, so the HSU is more efficient and thus there is a ton more real-world dynamic headroom (with less audible distortion I must say) even in a nearly 7000 cu. ft. space as my listening sessions have proven to my ear.

As cited (I believe) earlier in this thread, an upcoming professional review shows the 3MK3 producing more output at the 20hz benchmark than the best SVS Ultra driver, even without Turbo module. Combined with Craigsub's and others' listening evaluations, it's clear that HSU has wrought something pretty amazing at bargain prices with both the HO and MK3 versions of the VTF-3.

It will be interesting to see what kind of performance increase SVS gets with their new 13" Ultra model that is supposed to be released sometime this year. This competition between two solid sub manufacturers is great for us all
post #109 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denon2807 View Post

So here's the big question: Would (2) HSU VTF-3 HO subs crank out gut wrenching bass even in a room the size of mine (30x20 with 16 foot ceiling)?

Yes, especially with the "Turbo" attachments. Although the looks of the Turbo may turn some people off.

Quote:


Also, is the VTF-3 HO the most powerful sub HSU makes? Their website doesn't seem to show much of anything. One more question: From looking at a picture of the back panel of the VTF-3 HO it doesn't appear that two of the same sub can be hooked together as it only has one left and right RCA port. How would that work if I wanted to connect two?


Yes, the HO is the most powerful sub they make.

To run two subs at once, you split the output from the receiver with a Y-splitter. If you can afford that much sub, you'll probably want to get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer eq ($100, requires some manual testing and technical knowledge) or a Velodyne SMS-1 eq (about $700 I think, but comes with mic and OSD+software to eq in real-time). Both of these allow you to hook up dual subs, on top of eq'ing the frequency response to be flat or however you want it. The acoustics in most rooms will give you big dips and peaks, so lots of people eq (and add "bass traps" or room treatments) to let their subs live up to their true potential.
post #110 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Yes, especially with the "Turbo" attachments. Although the looks of the Turbo may turn some people off.

Yes, the HO is the most powerful sub they make.

To run two subs at once, you split the output from the receiver with a Y-splitter. If you can afford that much sub, you'll probably want to get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer eq ($100, requires some manual testing and technical knowledge) or a Velodyne SMS-1 eq (about $700 I think, but comes with mic and OSD+software to eq in real-time). Both of these allow you to hook up dual subs, on top of eq'ing the frequency response to be flat or however you want it. The acoustics in most rooms will give you big dips and peaks, so lots of people eq (and add "bass traps" or room treatments) to let their subs live up to their true potential.

Not a fan of how the HO sub looks with the "Turbo" attachment so I'm probably going to pass on that. Thanks for all the info. I think you've convinced me to buy (2) HSU VTF3 HO subs now. Is the equalizer really needed? Because if I'm spending $2K for these two subs I really don't have the budget to afford an equalizer right now considering I don't have a lot of technical knowledge and would have to buy the SMS-1. My system won't be devastated without equalization, will it?

As far as cables go is this a suitable subwoofer cable:

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-PureAV-...&s=electronics

Will this work for my Y-spliter (already have one of these in the cable bin):

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-...&s=electronics

Or should I buy this one?:

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-...&s=electronics

One more thing: Where do I buy the VTF HO subs from? Are they available on HSU's website as I don't see them.
post #111 of 204
Great! No, you don't need equalization. At the very least you need an SPL meter and the Avia setup disc to calibrate the subs - and especially to integrate them both into the system. It takes a little extra care with 2. Down the road you can always add an eq if you feel you need it.

Without the Turbos that's $1800 for 2. You order them from www.hsuresearch.com. Click on VTF-3 HO and look at the right side of the screen for "buy now" or whatever.

Those cables will work fine. It's best to have extra cable in case you want to play with placement. You can get by with a short one coming out of the receiver, split it, and then run it to the subs - assuming you have them one in each front corner or something.
post #112 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Great! No, you don't need equalization. At the very least you need an SPL meter and the Avia setup disc to calibrate the subs - and especially to integrate them both into the system. It takes a little extra care with 2. Down the road you can always add an eq if you feel you need it.

Without the Turbos that's $1800 for 2. You order them from www.hsuresearch.com. Click on VTF-3 HO and look at the right side of the screen for "buy now" or whatever.

Those cables will work fine. It's best to have extra cable in case you want to play with placement. You can get by with a short one coming out of the receiver, split it, and then run it to the subs - assuming you have them one in each front corner or something.

What's an SPL meter, where do I buy the Avia setup disc and how do I use it all? Keep in mind I don't have much technical knowledge with speakers, computers though, yes, and if it's not easy to do I'm not sure I'll be able to do it.

Also, any chance HSU might update the VTF-3 HO anytime soon? I'd hate to buy it and then a month later they release an update for it.
post #113 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denon2807 View Post

Also, any chance HSU might update the VTF-3 HO anytime soon? I'd hate to buy it and then a month later they release an update for it.

Wouldn't you think the same way of the SVS?
post #114 of 204
The HO just came out, and the previous models had been as-is for at least a few years, so you're safe there.

An SPL meter is a meter that measures SPL or sound pressure level. Basically it lets you measure the volume of each speaker and subwoofer so you can set them to the same volume level. If some of your speakers are louder or quieter than the rest, it won't sound right.
This is one most people seem to use:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search

And if you are on Netflix you can rent Avia from there. Otherwise you can get it from Amazon I believe.


BTW, what kind of receiver and speakers do you have? Denon and Klipsch, I assume? What models?
post #115 of 204
You can buy an SPL meter at your local Radio Shack for about $40.00. You should be able to find AVIA online.
post #116 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

The HO just came out, and the previous models had been as-is for at least a few years, so you're safe there.

An SPL meter is a meter that measures SPL or sound pressure level. Basically it lets you measure the volume of each speaker and subwoofer so you can set them to the same volume level. If some of your speakers are louder or quieter than the rest, it won't sound right.
This is one most people seem to use:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search

And if you are on Netflix you can rent Avia from there. Otherwise you can get it from Amazon I believe.

BTW, what kind of receiver and speakers do you have? Denon and Klipsch, I assume? What models?

I have a Denon 2807 and the Klipsch RF-62 Home Theater System but with the RC-64 center channel instead of the RC-62. Doesn't my Denon with it's auto calibration using the included microphone do whatever I'd be doing with the SPL meter?
post #117 of 204
Bummer: I just spoke with someone at HSU to see if they could offer me any kind of a deal if I ordered two VTF-3 HO's from them and they said the best they could do is 5% off. In comparison, SVS offered me 10% off which is equivalant to free shipping. If HSU would be willing to offer free shipping it'd be a done deal.
post #118 of 204
The HSUs are just better values to begin with.


And I'm not sure how much of a calibration the 2807 does. Owners can help you out there as to how reliable and close it will get you.
post #119 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

The HSUs are just better values to begin with.

And I'm not sure how much of a calibration the 2807 does. Owners can help you out there as to how reliable and close it will get you.

From what I can tell it does a pretty thorough job. I had to place the included mic in 5 different listening positions so that it could calibrate. Knowing this do I still need to buy a SPL meter? Also, what are all the switches on the back of the VTF-3 HO for? Like "Crossover Frequency" and "Phase." It's all oh so confusing.
post #120 of 204
I'm sure it's thorough. But sometimes the results the auto-calibration programs come up with aren't accurate when checked manually. So whether or not your Denon does a good job of it, I don't know.


And you'll want to do a crash-course on sub calibration before those bad boys arrive. Unfortunately I no longer have the big list of links I used to, thanks to a crashed hard drive. And I don't have time to write it all out at the moment.

I'm sure some other people can point you to some subwoofer basics.
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